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Improved Final Battle


coaster

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I'd be interested in feedback from others who've tried it. Is there a general consensus it's too hard, or is it a matter of taste?

 

As I've said in previous threads it's pretty winnable for me but (at least as far as my playthroughs have gone) requires a bit of gamesmanship - eg. all the party drinking invisibility potions at the same time. I think the two bowmen (Angelo and Diarmid[?]) are possibly overkill; I'd replace one of those with a cleric loaded with Invisibility Purges, both to reduce the unpleasant peppering of deadly arrows and to get around the semi-exploit of invisibility which turns this battle from extremely difficult into a fairly straightforward "hit and hide" exercise. Plus it would balance Sarevok's party out into a standard "fighter, archer, mage, thief, cleric" which might be a more interesting and diverse battle.

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(this is split off from the previous thread to keep the discussion clear - in case it's not obvious, the quote from me above is about the final battle in SCS, which Lemernis suggested might be too hard.)

 

I find the idea of making Diarmid into a cleric to be quite interesting. I'd be interested what others think both about that idea and the battle in general.

 

It might be interesting to give some background (spoiler alert). The Improved Final Battle (mostly) does four things:

 

(i) give the usual SCS intelligence upgrade.

(ii) add Diarmid, a c.10th level fighter with an archery specialisation and a scroll of protection from magic

(iii) make Sarevok unkillable till all his followers have died

(iv) cause each of Sarevok's henchman to become a Skeleton Warrior upon death

 

It doesn't make Sarevok hit any harder; on the other hand, Sarevok already hits pretty damn hard.

 

My original (private) version did (i) and (ii), and proved much too easy: basically all you have to do is beat on Sarevok, a strategy which probably would lose you the battle if it wasn't that it's automatically won by killing him. Adding (iii) was an admittedly brute-force way around that (hopefully wrapped in some reasonably good dialog). (iv) just seemed cool.

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I haven't much to add regarding turning Diarmid into a cleric, but it sounds fine enough.

 

Regarding the battle:

To reflect the overall improved game (when using SCS) I think this last battle has to be like it is now: tough - but manageable (sp?). It is after all the final. I do reload when facing Sarevok, but that's not worse than other hard battles. I now use more potions and wands than before, but Sarevok has always been a tough fight, so why alter this?

 

Each to his own ofcourse, so perhaps doing a softer version can help some?

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To reflect the overall improved game (when using SCS) I think this last battle has to be like it is now: tough - but manageable.

 

Totally agree that it needs to be really difficult. It should be the toughest battle of the game.

 

Here's what I would like to see:

 

1) no matter what, keep the current version as an option to install (David has done an outstanding job with modularity, i.e., offering customizeable components)

 

2) in addition offer a version that keeps to Sarevok's original party composition (Tazok, Angelo, Semaj, and Sarevok) but designs the mages' spellcasting routines to present the toughest spell arsenal yet encountered. In this alternate version:

 

- remove Diarmid

- don't have Angelo firing arrows of explosion (the 'tattoo of power' in the original BG1 battle should be enough!)

- eliminate the feature that has Sarevok's henchmen turn into undead... I forget specifically what they are... battle horrors?... after they are killed

- do some more intensive work with Angelo's and Semaj's spell selections to make this battle noticeably tougher than the top floor of the Iron Throne (and that is saying a lot).

 

It is the spell selection of enemy mages that makes SCS shine. And it is in this final battle that I would like to players encounter the most daunting spellcasting routines. Perhaps a way could be found to make Angelo and Semaj work in tandem to produce some truly devastating results.

 

I'd love to combat some of the spell routines that I, myself, use against enemies all the time. The following are just an example of one player's spell arsenal. Everyone has their own personal favorite routines. But anyway, something along these lines:

 

Area Spells

 

- Glitterdust and Greater Malison combo

- Emotion and Chaos combo

- Silence and Deafness combo

- Slow

 

Individual Target Spells

 

- spells that debilitate individual targets such as Dire Charm, Confusion, Domination, Feeblemind

- Hold Person or Contagion (and if enemy is a cleric-mage follow with Poison, Insect Plague, Cause Critical Wounds, Slay Living, etc.)

- Chromatic Orb (5th level and higher spheres can stun, cause weakness, paralyze, or petrify)

- Polymorph Other

 

Consider Making Angelo or Semaj a Cleric-Mage

 

Another thought is to make either Angelo or Semaj a cleric-mage (dual classed, I guess--they're both human, right?). Then some cleric spells can be added to the mix:

 

- Miscast Magic

- Rigid Thinking

- Unholy Blight

- Summon Insects

- Cloak of Fear

- Mental Domination

- Poison

- Insect Plague

- Pixie Dust

- Slay Living

- Cause Serious or Critical Wounds (if, properly buffed, using touch spells at some point in the routine)

 

This makes some very nasty spell combinations possible. For example: Contagion + Poison + Insect Plague. (Ouch!) And if the target has already been Glitterdusted, Greater Malisoned, and Unholy Blighted this is rough. The target had better pray for an arrow of dispelling.

 

Summoning

 

The only summoning spells I would use for Angelo and Semaj would be Animate Dead, which presumably will produce one skeleton warrior each. I think it would be fine for them to summon some help. Two skeleton warriors is probably plenty alongside Sarevok and Tazok in melee.

 

Tactical Considerations

 

There are ways to counter most of the above spells. To protect against the enemy's mind control spells the Greenstone amulet can get passed around (unrealistic in the midst of battle, sure, but most players go ahead an resort to exploits to win the really tough battles). Arrows of dispelling can also be used on affected comrades. Assuming that the enemy casts Dispel Magic from the getgo, the party will rely on primarily on potions during battle for buffs.

 

It is essential to bring down Semaj's and Angelo's Globes of Invulnerability. Dispel Magic does this--but given how those two Dimension Door around, that spell isn't very practical. It's very difficult to succeed with, at any rate. Arrows of dispelling seem the most pratical way. But at least in my games, it seems that Angelo and Semaj save most of the time against arrows of dispelling. I would just make sure that whatever mechanism it is that has them saving so much is legit for their class. I have never seen even a low AC warrior save against an arrow of dispelling, much less a mage...

 

Once the enemy's globes are brought down, and they are Glitterdusted and Greater Malisoned, Miscast Magic or Bala's Axe should be able to disable their spellcasting abillity significantly, shouldn't it?

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Just wanted to share a bit of observation on Diarmid.

 

In my no-reload solo F/M/C run, I had to reload this battle 3 times. Not because of losing. Simply Diarmid, being forced by my monster hordes near the exit of the temple and refusing to engage them in melee, actually retreated through the temple doors outside, where he's unreachable. This makes Sarevok, naturally, unkillable. A very unpleasant bug, or glitch.

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I havent done this battle in ages, but if you want to avoid the problem of the player just concentrating all firepower upon Sarevok until he dies, perhaps do something similar to the final battle of SOA?

 

Ie, first the player fights Sarevok, who then teleports in his minions once he is defeated, and heals. You can also add the script that keeps Sarevok alive until his minions are defeated, but at least this way the player is forced to fight Sarevok fair and square at least once. That being said, I'm not sure if Sarevok is powerful enough to take on an entire party without backup. Nonetheless, he should at least soak up a few spells, and when the rest of his party arrives the real fun starts. That also prevents the player from laying endless skull traps etc.

 

Given that Sarevok has, by this time, absorbed a lot of Bhaal's essence, he should have access to a few powerful Bhaalspawn abilities. But yeah, in keeping with the spirit of SCS I dont know whether its a good idea to give him new abilities.

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Guest Guest

The fight is quite fun, but it seems like Arrows of dispelling make this fight drastically easy with the use of potions.

Just focus each caster to death and go to town.

 

That's pretty much the problem i see with this item... without arrows of dispelling, this fight is a real pain... with them, it's almost too easy.

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In this connection, maybe one of the enemy casters should pre-buff with Protection from Missiles. Since both are without, they are indeed easy targets for Arrows of Dispelling. Not to mention the fact that they could've cast ProMissiles on Sarevok, thus ensuring that his buffs are undispellable by arrows. However, I cannot agree that without these arrows the fight is extremely difficult. More difficult, of course, but not that hard.

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The fight is quite fun, but it seems like Arrows of dispelling make this fight drastically easy with the use of potions.

Just focus each caster to death and go to town.

 

That's pretty much the problem i see with this item... without arrows of dispelling, this fight is a real pain... with them, it's almost too easy.

 

That was not my experience! I'm recalling that I used a whole quiver of those arrows but Semaj and Angelo would just disappear and rebuff.

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Guest Guest
The fight is quite fun, but it seems like Arrows of dispelling make this fight drastically easy with the use of potions.

Just focus each caster to death and go to town.

 

That's pretty much the problem i see with this item... without arrows of dispelling, this fight is a real pain... with them, it's almost too easy.

 

That was not my experience! I'm recalling that I used a whole quiver of those arrows but Semaj and Angelo would just disappear and rebuff.

My bad.

I didn't use the component that ehances PFNM to include magic arrows.

Does it also protects against arrows of dispelling ?

If it does, it makes for some stupidly powerful spellcasters..

You can't dispell their protections since they pretty much always have ~5 more levels than you (due to the way dispell magic works)

You can't reliably protect your melee characters from their disabling spells, due to the lack of lvl 5 cleric spells (at most, you will have 2 or 3 at your disposal)

That means you have to rely on something stupid that your ennemies are doing : dispelling summoned creature at the beginning of a fight instead of waiting to dispell later on, and only memorizing one dispell spell.

Once one of your melee characters is charmed / confused, there's no way you can dispell the effect off him, that means you can't really counter your ennemies unless you're just using the flaws of the improved AI.

 

I'm now in BGII, using SCSII. just killed the Shade Lord.

At first, i thought the fight was stupidly hard (spoilers below about his abilities)

 

- He casts protection from magic weapons 2-3 times

- He casts Black Blade of Disaster

- He has an aura that drains 4 levels to all the characters around him every 2-3 rounds..

 

 

At first i felt overwhelmed, but then I understood that i could :

 

- Dispell his protections / Black Blade (He casts thems at casterlevel 1 it seems)

- Cast protection from negative energy from far away to prevent my clerics / druids from beeing drained by his aura

 

The fight was still hard, but manageable : I could use my own abilities and proper placement to counter his abilities.

What's missing in BGI is a way to counter abilities.

 

You can't reliably use dispell / remove magic beside using arrows of dispelling.

You have imited access to Chaos commands, and those protect but do not dissipate confusion effects, meaning you have to use them preemptivly (I really think this is stupid, the only way to free a character from a Chaos effect is to dispell it, or to wait its end).

 

Maybe i should use the spell revisited mod, but i believe it has not been traducted in french yet, and i'm not sure that it modifies chaos command.

We really need a priest / druid spell level 3 spell that removes a confusion effect from a character.

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Guest Krazy

Yes, the final fight of BG1 is quite nasty, but I have found a foolproof incredibly cheesy way to beat it.

 

Pick up Jaheira or Faldorn, give them summon fire elemental and go in (yes, I'm well aware you need to do a little XP farming to achieve this with Jaheira). Laugh at how your tough guy bigger brother can't work out that his 'big chopper' can't harm that elemental and keeps whacking away at it. The elemental being immune to all the fire based spells and effects going off is quite handy too.

 

To his credit, Semaj got the thing down to 'injured' but alas it wasn't enough to prevent his own downfall.

 

David, it's kinda funny being able to turn the tables on SCS, and it's legal too. :rolleyes:

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How can a Druid cast Summon Fire Elemental if the level cap for pure-class Druids like Faldorn is 8, and Jaheira will only ever reach Druid level 7? Druids need to be level 12 iirc to cast that spell, and it isn't even available in BG1.

 

Of course, I don't play with exp. cap removers or the BGT mod, because I prefer EasyTuTu, since it allows you to play the game with BG1 rules.

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Guest Krazy

Easy, remove the XP cap. If SCS is pitting you against foes that are higher (and some of them quite a bit higher) than the BG1 cap, I had no qualms about allowing myself to reach those levels too.

 

Trust me, SCS is still plenty difficult with all the improvements for a party that has a bit more XP than the normal cap.

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Guest Aranthys

Gotta agree there.

But there's no way you get a lvl 12 druid unless you've been farming xp like mad.

Usually, by the end of BG1 my party has about ~250kxp.

That means you get one more level than in vanilla. By no means does that break the difficulty of the game with SCS.

To get a level 12 druid you need 500k xp I believe, that's a lot of farmed XP.

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Well, assuming you don't take advantage of respawns (or turn them off, one component of one mod I use sets respawns to 1,000 game days, essentially the same as them not happening), doing everything with a full install of SCS would give more than 1,250,000 experience. Solo characters can get to around level 13, full parties would have to grind a lot more (and ignore the above mentioned component) to get to level 12.

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