How do I fight high level mages?

[Guest ksshan]

Hi guys. I recently reinstalled BG2 with the wonderful SCSII mod. I must say it really preserves the flavor of the game while making it tactically harder.

 

Since I do have some experience with tactical mods (though it was a long time ago), I breezed through the druid grove, de'arnise keep and thief stronghold. However, I reached my 1st stumbling block, the halfing mage in the planar sphere.

 

He is the highest level mage I've met so far, and he is already giving me a huge headache. I have no way to dispell his SI:abjuration since none of my casters are lvl 14 for RRR yet. I cant interrupt his spell casting as well since he has PFMW. I don't want to resort to cheesy methods like running away, hiding behind doors etc. So how can I defeat him at a low level (10-12) without having to resort to cheese?

 

TIA

[Lemernis]

This is a very difficult fight, I just completed it only yesterday with a same level party.

 

I had to resort to cheese to win. I approached slowly and deliberately. I took out each group at a time by first revealing them via stealth, then withdrawing just outside of my perception range, and finally casting spells from outside both perception ranges. I used Emotion for the couple of warrior mobs. That conserved hit points for the big battle at the end of the cave.

 

For the fight against the three bosses, once again I cast from outside the enemy's perception range. You can reveal just Entu, then step back so that they can't see you, nor you them, without it triggering their spell sequencers and contingencies. I then cast Greater Malison and Glitterdust to lower their saving throws. I was lucky to also blind some of them with the Glitterdust.

 

Then I peppered away at their area with spells like Emotion, Chaos, and Slow. Those spells neutralized a lot of the the pesky warriors surrounding the theee bosses. And in addition I was able to get Entu, Kayardi, and Mogadish all affected by at least one of those spells.

 

Now what I find interesting, though, is that some of them must be using sims. Because after killing all three bosses at least one of them always seemed to Shadow or Dimension Doors back in with (Minor?) Globe of Invunerability and Improved Invisibility. And if all your spells are exhausted at that point, you're usually going to die. Because even one mage like this will cast spells like Symbol: Stun and Horrid Wilting. And it's usually lights out then--they'll make quick work of your party.

 

Anyway, I was able to get the win because they were all confused via Chaos. I can't quite recall now if when I finally got the win I avoided that sceanrio where one of them, though already killed (a sim apparently), teleports in. If so, I think I might have gotten lucky with Remove Magic to remove the Globe and Improved Invisibility I just can't remember now.

 

Honestly, I have not yet figured out a way to combat the spell combination of Minor or full Globe of Invulnerability and Improved Invisibility when my party has spells only up to level 5. When SCSII mages are protected with that combo they always, seemingly without fail, save against Dispell Magic--i.e., it never seems to dispel the globe. And re: Improved Invisibility they also seem to make their saving throws against Glitterdust the overwhelming majority of the time (just a guess, but seems to me on the order of about 95%). Remove Magic, albeit a long shot for SCSII's high level mages, has seemginly worked better in my experience than Dispel Magic. But maybe that's just a fluke.

 

***

 

Sidenote: FWIW, I had to play around a little with SCSII's components to find the the most enjoyable level of increased difficulty for me, personally. What ended up giving me (again, this is just me) the best blend of greater tactical challenge and winnability is:

 

Smarter general AI

Improved calls for help

Potions for NPCs

Smarter mages - Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat (option 3)

Smarter priests - Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat (option 3)

Ease of use party AI

 

I use plenty of other nifty SCSII tweaks here and there. But those core AI improvements will definitely make the battles a whole lot harder than the vanilla game--and yet you will not have to incessantly reload to get a win, time after time after time. (There are so many fights against high level spellcasters in BGII that, for me, to have to reload so often leeches the fun value right out of the game.) You can of course wratchet up from there with improvements to the various creature types and bosses.

 

Enemy spellcasters with HLAs is insanely difficult, in my experience. That's only for the most hardcore tactical player.

 

If you have prebuffing for mages and clerics installed you might want to consider uninstalling that component and see how you like that level of difficulty.

[Icendoan]

You don't. You wait for Chuck Norris. (Sorry, been reading a Chuck Norris Joke thread xD)

 

Icen

[Wisp]

I have no way to dispell his SI:abjuration since none of my casters are lvl 14 for RRR yet.

Any spell protection removal will remove SI: A in SCSII. It doesn't have to be RRR.

 

You are in for a treat. There are Lavok and Tolgerias as well, both of which are higher level than Kayardi.

If you have a save from before you travelled with the sphere and would like to avoid resorting to chesse to get through this, I suggest you reload and come back later. Personally, Planar Sphere is one of the last side quest I do.

[Guest ksshan]

Wait, so you're saying SI:abjuration does not protect against abjuration spells that remove spell protections? Which means I can just spell thrust then breach? Whats the difficulty in that then?

[Guest ksshan]

Wait, so you're saying SI:abjuration does not protect against abjuration spells that remove spell protections? Which means I can just spell thrust then breach? Whats the difficulty in that then?

 

Nevermind, I just tried again, and realised of course that it takes more then removing SI: abjuration to be able to breach mages. Guess I have to restart, considering that I dont have a save from before planar sphere, and my sorc spell selections are kinda crappy. Mostly damaging spells and buffs, and little in the way of countering spell casters.

 

Considering SCSII adds such tactical complexity to the game, what spells would you pick for a sorc? The rest of my party is a f/c and f/m multi, and a ranger>cleric dual

[Wisp]

Considering SCSII adds such tactical complexity to the game, what spells would you pick for a sorc? The rest of my party is a f/c and f/m multi, and a ranger>cleric dual

 

Spell Thrust is nice, but possibly not Sorcerer material. Will remove all spell protections of level 5 or lower, including Spell Immunities. Obviously ineffectual if the opponent uses GoI (but works against Minor Globes). But if you have no more urgent need for that level 3 spell, I'd definitely consider Spell Thrust.

 

Remove/Dispel Magic is good when you are high level, but not very exciting before then.

 

Secret Word can be of use, but I tend to not pick it. I tend to need e.g. Pierce Magic as well, so Secret Word becomes a bit redundant. Is also ineffectual against liches (which is pretty big).

 

With only 1 other mage and a melee heavy party, you would want to pick Breach. Otherwise, I prefer to let regular mages handle the Breaching.

 

Lower Resistance is useful. If you are so inclined, you can eventually put them in a Trigger and save your level 5 spells for other things.

 

Spell Immunity is fairly essential. SI: A will protect against Remove Magic (a pretty dangerous spell). Can obviously also be used in its other flavours. Conjuration runs a pretty close second, IMO, but Necromancy is frequently useful as well.

 

Spell Shield. Pick it. Will save your bacon more than once against spellcasters. Is also the only reliable protection against beholders for a mage.

 

Sunfire is obviously good since it bypasses Magic Resistance and spell protections, but depreciates a little compared to vanilla BG2 since every mage and his dog runs Protection from Fire.

 

Improved Haste. Mix with a warrior and you have a classic.

 

Pierce Magic. First available spell protection removal that can deal with GoI. Can be anything from fairly uninteresting to huge, depending on the frequency you see GoI used.

 

Spell Deflection is pretty nice, mainly because it is a higher level spell protection (and is consequently removed first) and offers you a buffer in mage fights. Overlaps with Spell Turning.

 

True Sight is pretty crucial but not necessarily something I want my Sorcerer to pick, as it can be cast by other spellcasters. That said, there is something to be said about having one self-sufficient mage. You can't always rely on having another party member handy.

 

I have found Power Word Stun to be pretty useful. Can be used to immobilise mages once you've taken down their spell protections and keep them from casting new ones or run around. A common mage ploy in SCSII is to cast new spell protections via Trigger or Sequencer once the old ones have been removed. If you manage to stun them before they can do this, you've basically spared yourself half the fight.

 

Project Image is a good pick, but lots of enemies like to cast True Sight, so you need to keep that in mind when you use it.

 

Spell Sequencer is good stuff.

 

Spell Turning is like Spell Deflection. I'd not pick more than one.

 

Khelben's Warding Whip has its uses, but enough is enough. If you have Pierce Magic, you will probably not want to pick this as well. If you can wait a little longer, you can pick this spell instead of Pierce Magic, though.

 

Pierce Shield is nice. Can take down Spell Trap (which you encounter rather frequently later on in the game). Can also be used to lower Magic Resistance on enemies that are immune to Lower Resistance (many special enemies in ToB are).

 

Spell Trigger is a good pick.

 

I like Power Word Kill. If you are quick about it, you can occasionally kill a mage as soon as the fight starts. Can also be used like PW Stun but spares you the bother of having to kill the mage. A few mages have more than 90 HP, but they are not that common.

 

Spellstrike is of obvious use, but I tend to avoid it since I don't like the idea of blowing a level 9 spell on taking down all spell protections, only to have the mage whip up a new batch with a Trigger. There's also the risk you'll miss, since SCSII mages tend to run all over the place.

 

Spell Trap is not very good IMO. SCSII mages don't stand around casting spells for it to absorb. Combine it with Simulacrum and you can use it yourself, however.

 

Time Stop is almost as good (or as overrated) in SCSII as it is in vanilla BG2.

 

I think Wail of the Banshee is interesting. Very few mages (if any) run SI: Necromancy and none of their other protections are useful. Since it allows for a save, it is obviously not terribly good against a single mage, but if you are up against a bunch of them, you can potentially zap a number of them with just this one spell. Thieves also tend to have bad saves vs death.

 

Wish is so powerful it can break the game.

 

 

Protection from Fire and Magical Damage is pretty important. There is Protection from Energy which gives you 75% against everything but is short-lasting and there are the Protection from X spells, which give you 100% against a single element and last a long time. You can suffer spell disruption from damage regardless of how protected you are. Personally, I tend to go with the Protection from X spells, but I usually have enough casters to afford this.

Protecting your warriors is not a big deal, IMO. They typically have the HP to survive and there are potions and green scrolls in a pinch. They are also vulnerable to Remove Magic, so their buff spells tend to disappear fast.

 

Then there are the damage spells and the other odd spells you may want to pick. Not terribly much to say there, but spell that is often overlooked is Cone of Cold. Few mages are protected against cold (unlike fire, magical damage, acid and lightning) and the spell scales up to level 20. It does destroy items though, so you need to use it judiciously. Teleport Field is also a good spell, but maybe not for everyone.

[Icendoan]

If you aren't running SR, Emotion is a very good pick, combining in a trigger with Doom and Greater Malison, you are pretty much guaranteed to knock out at least one enemy, usually more, and making them easy prey for fighters.

 

Icen

[DavidW]

As a point of interest, SI:Abj didn't block antimagic spells even in the vanilla game (though it took me two playthroughs to realise this). In SCS2, it does block Breach; in vanilla, it doesn't.

[Guest Guest_Yangus1_*]

I have no way to dispell his SI:abjuration since none of my casters are lvl 14 for RRR yet. I cant interrupt his spell casting as well since he has PFMW. I don't want to resort to cheesy methods like running away, hiding behind doors etc. So how can I defeat him at a low level (10-12) without having to resort to cheese?

 

TIA

 

A useful tactic when fighting mages who use PFMW is to unequip your magical weapons and use normal ones. I used to struggle with the improved mages and have had a much easier time since I realised this. Of course it doesn't work against Lich's or high level mages who cast the mantle spells but alot of mages use PFMW. If your warriors are hasted you can normally get through their stoneskins and start damaging them before they cast their most dangerous spells. Can't remember if there is any normal weapons lying about the Planar Sphere but if there is the tactic is worth a try.

 

Also another thing to remember when fighting SCSII mages is the thief detect illusion skill dispels enemy mages illusion spells even if they have SI: divination running.

[Guest ZFR]

Then there are the damage spells and the other odd spells you may want to pick. Not terribly much to say there, but spell that is often overlooked is Cone of Cold. Few mages are protected against cold (unlike fire, magical damage, acid and lightning) and the spell scales up to level 20. It does destroy items though, so you need to use it judiciously.

 

Sorry slightly off topic but quick question about this. Is the destroying of items property only there with cone of cold or is it present in other cold damage spells, like ice strom?

[Demivrgvs]

Then there are the damage spells and the other odd spells you may want to pick. Not terribly much to say there, but spell that is often overlooked is Cone of Cold. Few mages are protected against cold (unlike fire, magical damage, acid and lightning) and the spell scales up to level 20. It does destroy items though, so you need to use it judiciously.

 

Sorry slightly off topic but quick question about this. Is the destroying of items property only there with cone of cold or is it present in other cold damage spells, like ice strom?

Yes, but you can prevent it disabling the gore option. Gore does pratically nothing imo, only a very limited "dramatic" killing effects (disintegration, frozen death, ...).

[Guest ZFR]

 

Sorry slightly off topic but quick question about this. Is the destroying of items property only there with cone of cold or is it present in other cold damage spells, like ice strom?

Yes, but you can prevent it disabling the gore option. Gore does pratically nothing imo, only a very limited "dramatic" killing effects (disintegration, frozen death, ...).

 

How about other elemental damage, can firestorm for example destroy items with gore enabled? Or is it only a property of cold?

 

Thanks

[Demivrgvs]

Fire/Acid/Electrical/Magic damage won't cause any issue even with gore on.

[Guest ZFR]

Thank you very much for the clarifications Demivrgvs.

 

boy, I could surely use a mod that fixes the cold damage thingy...