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[Jarno Mikkola]

Summons

You're probably the first one asking to tone them down instead of improving them. I'll look into Shamblers but it's a 7th lvl summon, thus very hard to balance when compared to things like Genies or Mordy Sword, not to mention that it has to be quite stronger than a Greater Earth Elemental for example. Which other summoned creature seems too powerful?

Well, he is not the only one of the opinion that some(most) the summons are a bit too much...

 

Examples?

 

- The Earth elementals, which all have their 40% (melee)damage resistances and Greater's 188 hit point(->313 hit points)... a 20th fighter doesn't have that many hit points, and mostly not that much melee resistance either, let alone an summon which is free to be sacrificed to save others (from the damage).

 

It might be OK if the monster Hit Dice would be capped like the Fighters were... in this case the Greater Earth Elemental(16 Hit Dice) would have been 8*9+6*9+2*7=140 Hit points(at most). While according to your current one's hit points, it actually has a Hit Dice of 40 with the games own measures.

 

Why those? The 8 is the basic monster class dice= d8, the 6 comes from the Constitution of 21.. if we accept the fact that monsters don't gain the Constitution bonuses.

The 9's come from the HP's being capped at level 9, like warriors are, and the 2 comes from the normal monster class hit point bonus on the levels above the level 9, from which the 7 comes from.

 

*You might then ask yourself; Why is the Greater EE better than the normal EE if it only has 8 hit points more(Hit Dice 12 vs. Hit Dice of 16) ? The answer is that it has greater stats, and abilities... like higher Damage Resistance which is not standardized to be 40%, but with the Lesser be just 10%, the Normal having a 20%, and Greater to have the 40%. Now there's a little more Hit Point difference than just 8 Hit Points... in most cases.

And this should go to every one of the summons spells, not just the Earth Elementals.

*You also might think that: Why do your source books give ridiculous amounts of hit points compared to the games once when comparing the Hit Dices? Like the Hit Dice of 16 being actually a 40.

But perhaps you already know that as the game was made with the 2ed's rules that then were capped to level 9-10, 20-21, 40 and 99 depending on what feature you look at.

 

- The Skeletons need to be vulnerable to Blunt melee damage. So -50% to the Blunt damage resistance to all the summoned once would fit quite well.

- The Planetar is a ~18/18 level Paladin/Cleric ally with really hyped out stats... and a bad spell selection in some cases but fine in others, that's a little too much from a summon, don't you think.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[Demivrgvs]

Call Woodland Beings

This is something I've been meaning to ask you for some time but never got around to - Call Woodland Beings.

It's a 4th level divine spell, and the summon you receive can cast 4th level spells..? So instead of casting Animal Summoning I (lvl 4) I could just summon a nymph that can do this:

1° Cure Light Wounds (x2), Entangle (x2), Shillelagh, Doom

2° Barkskin, Charm Person or Animal (x2), Resist Fire and Cold, Slow Poison

3° Call Lightning, Hold Person or Animal, Summon Insects

4° Animal Summoning I

 

Intended?

Yes, sort of. In theory I planned to have more creatures for this spell (e.g.dryads for mid-low lvl druids and then nymph at higher lvls), but then I dind't had the time to work on so many summons and kept only the nymph. The point is that the nymph summons only two wolves, while a mid-high lvl druid can cast up to five wolves with ASI. That being said, I agree that for a mid-low lvl druid the nymph is a better choice in almost all cases, but that because I didn't managed to make the spell scale with caster lvl a bit.

 

Still, I really don't think I made the Nymph much more powerful than vanilla's one, considering the latter had powerful spells such as Confusion (the 7th lvl divine version, though you can count it as 4th), Mental Domination, and Mass Cure (a 5th lvl spell! ). I simply granted her a much more appropriate spell selection.

 

 

Summons

You're probably the first one asking to tone them down instead of improving them. I'll look into Shamblers but it's a 7th lvl summon, thus very hard to balance when compared to things like Genies or Mordy Sword, not to mention that it has to be quite stronger than a Greater Earth Elemental for example. Which other summoned creature seems too powerful?

Well, he is not the only one of the opinion that some(most) the summons are a bit too much...

Well, you're the second then.

 

Examples?

Sure, though you could spare me the unnecessary lesson about 2nd and 3rd edition considering you do know I'm well aware of PnP rules of any edition (including the horrible 4th).

 

 

Elementals

- The Earth elementals, which all have their 40% (melee)damage resistances and Greater's 188 hit point(->313 hit points)... a 20th fighter doesn't have that many hit points, and mostly not that much melee resistance either, let alone an summon which is free to be sacrificed to save others (from the damage).

How the hell 188 becomes 313 is a mistery. Anyway, earth elemental resistances are there to compensate fire resistance of the fire elemental, and in general to make each elemental different. Furthermore I removed the their vanilla's outstanding immunity to magical weapons, which was making them much more exploitable than they are now (e.g. I do remember a couple of fire elementals wiping out the entire Unseeing Eye dungeon in vanilla).

 

That being said, you have a point, and if most players want to slightly lower their hp using 2nd edition progression for HD higher than 9 I may agree, but don't try to say that a 16HD elemental can compete with a 20th lvl fighter, because even a 10th lvl fighter with decent equipment can beat a Greater Elemental within this game.

 

 

Skeletons

- The Skeletons need to be vulnerable to Blunt melee damage. So -50% to the Blunt damage resistance to all the summoned once would fit quite well.

It's already there, as skeletons are resistant to anything but crushing damage. I simply used values almost identical to in-game creatures instead of something so radically different as you suggest.

 

If you instead had told me about Skeleton Warrior's magic resistance being OP, then I would have fully agreed with you.

 

 

Planetars

- The Planetar is a ~18/18 level Paladin/Cleric ally with really hyped out stats... and a bad spell selection in some cases but fine in others, that's a little too much from a summon, don't you think.

Man, it's a 18HD creature not a 18/18 paladin/cleric...consider it a 18th lvl cleric if you want. Now, I can easily agree they are over the top, but they are HLAs, and you can't summon more than one at a time. Are they much more powerful than in vanilla? If they need a little nerf I'm all for it, but only if most players agree, and it doesn't conflict with SCS (where fiends and celestials need to be and are outstanding creatures as per 3rd edition).

 

P.S I do have plans to somewhat limit them. Turning HLAs into innates you won't have more than 1 planetar per day, and (un)Holy Word may get PnP ability to banish them (perhaps even Banish spell itself could be able to do it as long as a save is allowed to negate the effect, but I'm not sure).

Edited August 16, 2010 by Demivrgvs

[StrixO]

Call Woodland Beings

I like the new nymph, but I might remove her summons, and have it rely on (lower level) charms and enchantments instead. Rather than a straight druid spellbook, why not include a few arcane spells?

 

Summons

Does everything need to be perfectly balanced? Sometimes I use less-than-ideal spells just for fun. I also wouldn't use a mordy sword as a benchmark for balance; its a strong spell and one reason to play a mage. Do druids and clerics need balanced analogues?

Re: shambling mounds - bells and whistles aside, it's a 7th level divine summons that sticks around for 8 hours.

 

Most of my gripes about the summons come down to SR HP assigments, I think. There's too much HP for my game, and I'd like to see many of the summons slightly more fragile. A thought like this resonates strongly with me:

That being said, you have a point, and if most players want to slightly lower their hp using 2nd edition progression for HD higher than 9 I may agree, but...

Still considering thac0 and AC assignments. Too many details for me all at once.

 

Elementals

How the hell 188 becomes 313 is a mistery.

Assuming straight melee damage and 40% melee damage resistance, the party needs to inflict 188/0.6 (=313) damage to reduce to zero, I guess. Shambling mound is similar strong meatshield with resistance (melee, fire, cold, electric), and it regenerates.

 

Skeletons

If you instead had told me about Skeleton Warrior's magic resistance being OP, then I would have fully agreed with you.

The skellies are awesome, but I agree with Demi about the MR. Nerf them. I'd cut MR to at least 75% (50% sounds good to me), and reduce HP by 20% (SR's hit point assigment). An unpopular idea, I'm sure, but it's a level 3 divine...

 

Anyway, still appreciate all the work you've put in.

Edited August 19, 2010 by StrixO

[Demivrgvs]

Call Woodland Beings

I like the new nymph, but I might remove her summons, and have it rely on (lower level) charms and enchantments instead. Rather than a straight druid spellbook, why not include a few arcane spells?

I didn't used arcane spells simply because I opted to remain true to PnP (both AD&D and 3rd ed), and I don't even see arcane spells that would fit her so much more:

- Charm and Dire Charm are "pointless" because she have Charm Person & Animal

- Hold Person is outshined by Hold Person and Animal

- Confusion as a 4th lvl spell would probably be welcomed back by most players, but I don't like to break a rule (druid-only) only for it, not to mention it would raise balance questions (the Nymph is a 4th spell itself, that's why I'd use only a 4th lvl spell which isn't "optimal" when cast by a low lvl caster).

 

That being said, there'are several small changes I may work on for her like 1) adding her PnP abilities or 2) slightly revising her spellbook.

 

1) Blinding Beauty may actually be OP, because it's a sort of Mass Blind spell (though limited to humanoids) but Stunning Glance can be made as a sort of Command-like effect with a short 1 round duration to limit its effectiveness.

 

2) Doom should be replaced by a more druidic spell like Faerie Fire, or Sleep if we end up adding it a la NWN (granting her one more enchantment as you suggest). Magic Stone may be a better choice over Shillelagh considering her stats and role. We may add one additional Charm spell removing Resist Fire/Cold. The only spell which could replace Animal Summoning imo is Cure Critical Wounds...but I'd probably stick with the former to give her more staying power consider how fragile she is.

 

P.S In-game nymph has her AD&D 50% magic resistance, while the summoned one never had it...that's a really huge difference.

 

 

Summons

Does everything need to be perfectly balanced? Sometimes I use less-than-ideal spells just for fun. I also wouldn't use a mordy sword as a benchmark for balance; its a strong spell and one reason to play a mage. Do druids and clerics need balanced analogues?

Well, I want everything to be as balanced as possible, that's the very reason which made me start working on SR ages ago. That being said, priests don't need a Mordy-like summon at all, but if they have a 7th lvl summon it must be of considerable power, at least slightly more powerful that a Greater Elemental or an Air Servant.

 

Most of my gripes about the summons come down to SR HP assigments, I think. There's too much HP for my game, and I'd like to see many of the summons slightly more fragile. A thought like this resonates strongly with me:

That being said, you have a point, and if most players want to slightly lower their hp using 2nd edition progression for HD higher than 9 I may agree, but...

Still considering thac0 and AC assignments. Too many details for me all at once.

As I said, this can be done.

 

 

Elementals

How the hell 188 becomes 313 is a mistery.

Assuming straight melee damage and 40% melee damage resistance, the party needs to inflict 188/0.6 (=313) damage to reduce to zero, I guess. Shambling mound is similar strong meatshield with resistance (melee, fire, cold, electric), and it regenerates.

Perhaps I'm wrong but (188/100)x140=263. If we lower their hit points we also lower the effectiveness of their resistances (I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it may be what most you prefer). Are hps your only issue? What about damage outputs for examples?

 

 

Skeletons

If you instead had told me about Skeleton Warrior's magic resistance being OP, then I would have fully agreed with you.

The skellies are awesome, but I agree with Demi about the MR. Nerf them. I'd cut MR to at least 75% (50% sounds good to me), and reduce HP by 20% (SR's hit point assigment). An unpopular idea, I'm sure, but it's a level 3 divine...

Yeah, 50% would probably keep them outstandingly powerful (especially considering it's a 3rd lvl summon) but at least not overpowered and exploitable. Are we the only two players who'd prefer to have more balanced Skeleton Warriors?

 

P.S casting Magic Resistance on a nerfed Skeleton Warrior would be a really powerful buff.

 

 

Anyway, still appreciate all the work you've put in.

Thanks, and don't worry, I really don't take your suggestions as an offense. I do appreciate criticism when it's constructive.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Planetars

Man, it's a 18HD creature not a 18/18 paladin/cleric...consider it a 18th lvl cleric if you want. Now, I can easily agree they are over the top, but they are HLAs, and you can't summon more than one at a time. Are they much more powerful than in vanilla?

Sorry, I was wrong, it's not a Paladin/Cleric... but a 18/18 Fighter/Cleric, which is still as bad, cause their Thac0 is 2, with Strength 19 etc. It becomes better than many of the NPCs in the game, if they don't have special equipment for them, Anomen.

 

In my opinion the Vanilla Planetars were too though for a summon spell... you just took their one unique thing, level 25 cleric and made it 18/18 fighter Cleric... which improves their Thac0, Hit Points, and melee damage resistances... and doesn't really affect their spells much.

 

Elementals

How the hell 188 becomes 313 is a mistery.

Assuming straight melee damage and 40% melee damage resistance, the party needs to inflict 188/0.6 (=313) damage to reduce to zero, I guess.

Perhaps I'm wrong but (188/100)x140=263. If we lower their hit points we also lower the effectiveness of their resistances (I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it may be what most you prefer). Are hps your only issue? What about damage outputs for examples?

Just like StrixO says, we need to inflict the damage, not increase the percentage of damage inflicted to gain the amount that's needed to kill the creature.

Example, if the creature has 100 hit points, but has 99% damage resistance, you need to inflict either 9900 damage points with one or more hits, or ~100 hits that each take one hit point away, you can't just increase your damage output with +99% to cumulate enough to kill the darn thing((100/100)x199)=199 as that just inflicts 2 points of damage, which reduces the amount of needed landed hits to ~50 times.

The damage out put feels quite right, the only thing I feel that's might be a little over the top besides the above in the elearsu3.cre is the Strength amount of 23... as the other Greater Earth Elementals have Strength of 19(elearg01.cre and udelde.cre -files, with are both hostile).

 

Anyway, still appreciate all the work you've put in.

My sentiment also, I just try to let Demivrgvs to know what he is actually doing as a player... most of the time. Edited August 19, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[Shaitan]

Skeletons

Please do nerf skellies. I use to buff them, and they are OP in my eyes.

[Demivrgvs]

Planetars

Man, it's a 18HD creature not a 18/18 paladin/cleric...consider it a 18th lvl cleric if you want. Now, I can easily agree they are over the top, but they are HLAs, and you can't summon more than one at a time. Are they much more powerful than in vanilla?

Sorry, I was wrong, it's not a Paladin/Cleric... but a 18/18 Fighter/Cleric, which is still as bad, cause their Thac0 is 2, with Strength 19 etc. It becomes better than many of the NPCs in the game, if they don't have special equipment for them, Anomen.

 

In my opinion the Vanilla Planetars were too though for a summon spell... you just took their one unique thing, level 25 cleric and made it 18/18 fighter Cleric... which improves their Thac0, Hit Points, and melee damage resistances... and doesn't really affect their spells much.

For godsdamn sake, they are 18HD creatures NOT 18/18 multiclass fighter/cleric. Does it have grandmastery like any 18th lvl fighter? No. Does it need to be a fighter to "legitimaly" have 3 attacks per round? No, it had 3 apr even in vanilla. Damage resistance has NOTHING to do with being a fighter. Was vanilla's cleric-only restriction denying the planetar from wielding a vorpal two-handed sword? No. Should I go on?

 

I simply used the fighter/cleric template as a base upon which construct the creature. Are Pit Fiends 24/24/24 fighter/mage/cleric? No, they are tough fighters with spell-like abilitites from both divine and arcane repertoires.

 

Regarding the 25th lvl thing not changing much...are you kidding? That would mean +14hp even with the less powerful 2nd ed hp progression table (which ironically is the exact amount of hp granted by being considered a 18/18 fighter-cleric hybrid instead of 18 cleric-only), better saves, slightly more powerful spells (not much), much more spells per day (a huge difference because of high lvl slots), extremely powerful Turn Undead ability, and in theory even HLAs!

 

Furthermore Planetars are not 25th lvl anymore because such a high level should be kept for Solars as per PnP. The hierarchic order of Devas, Planetars and Solars is quite important imo, if only for the "immersion factor".

 

 

Elementals

Ok, I was wrong about the damage resistance, it's more effective than I thought. As I already said I'm open to lower the amount of hps of these summons, this is another good reason to go for it.

 

 

Skeleton Warriors

Please do nerf skellies. I use to buff them, and they are OP in my eyes.

Yeah, buffed they become even more OP, because their innate (not-dispellable) 90% magic resistance make those buffs even more effective (e.g. try countering a group of hasted skeletons with Slow spells...good luck). You know what, I think I'm going to nerf mr to 50%, even if I'm pretty sure it will be unpopular.

[Shaitan]

Skeleton Warriors

Please do nerf skellies. I use to buff them, and they are OP in my eyes.

Yeah, buffed they become even more OP, because their innate (not-dispellable) 90% magic resistance make those buffs even more effective (e.g. try countering a group of hasted skeletons with Slow spells...good luck). You know what, I think I'm going to nerf mr to 50%, even if I'm pretty sure it will be unpopular.

You have my support.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Planetars

Man, it's a 18HD creature not a 18/18 paladin/cleric...consider it a 18th lvl cleric if you want. Now, I can easily agree they are over the top, but they are HLAs, and you can't summon more than one at a time. Are they much more powerful than in vanilla?

Sorry, I was wrong, it's not a Paladin/Cleric... but a 18/18 Fighter/Cleric, which is still as bad, cause their Thac0 is 2, with Strength 19 etc. It becomes better than many of the NPCs in the game, if they don't have special equipment for them, Anomen.

 

In my opinion the Vanilla Planetars were too though for a summon spell... you just took their one unique thing, level 25 cleric and made it 18/18 fighter Cleric... which improves their Thac0, Hit Points, and melee damage resistances... and doesn't really affect their spells much.

For godsdamn sake, they are 18HD creatures NOT 18/18 multiclass fighter/cleric. Does it have grandmastery like any 18th lvl fighter? No. Does it need to be a fighter to "legitimaly" have 3 attacks per round? No, it had 3 apr even in vanilla. Damage resistance has NOTHING to do with being a fighter. Was vanilla's cleric-only restriction denying the planetar from wielding a vorpal two-handed sword? No. Should I go on?

Yeah, you should be going on to the fact that your "consider it a 18th lvl cleric if you want" has a Thac0 of 2... if it's not a Fighter multiclass! With the Strength of 19, making his actual Thac0, what ? Was it "-1", yeah... with damage increment of +7... try that on Anomen, and you'll be pimping him with your best equipment to Fighter->Cleric.

Yes, the damage resistance is an extra feature, but as you add to it and the Hit Points, both... in concerns the Fighter as well.

 

PS: You'll be using more experience to make a character with those stats(Thac0 etc.) than for a Mage needs to gain access to them: Mage XP at level 19=3375000, Fighter/Cleric-multi XP at levels 18/18 = 2500000+2250000=4750000...

Edited August 19, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[Demivrgvs]

Planetars

Jarno, it's kinda pointless to continue debating such a useless thing. The planetar could have the very same stats, resistances, abilities, and so on while being a true cleric, which is more or less what happened in vanilla. The Pit Fiend example is very simple to understand, as it's quite clear he is not the class displayed by cre file, just like Elementals and most summons don't fit any class at all (what are they? fighters with less hp and worse thac0 per HD?). Creatures have tons of special qualities and abilities, they don't fit any class, I only use base classes to help me build them, especially when I have to deal with spellcasters.

 

If we want to slightly nerf celestials (e.g. worse thac0) I'm open to discuss it, and I can probably agree on some aspects, but the whole "18/18 vs 18" is really meaningless.

[DavidW]

It might help to explain, for those not familiar with how CRE files work, that the "class" and "level" parameters in the creature file control very few of the creature's actual attributes. Simply designating a kobold, say, as a 20th level fighter/cleric, has no effect whatsoever on its spells, THAC0, hit points, saving throws, or proficiencies. The "class" and "level" parameters control only a very small number of hardcoded features, mainly:

 

- the level at which spells are cast, if they are cast

- the ability to turn undead (which, however, won't be used unless the creature was already scripted to)

- the level at which certain spells (e.g. Sleep) affect the creature

- whether additional attacks per round are gained at high levels (fighters only)

 

It would in many ways be more logical if the creature's base statistics were all determined by its level and the rest of the CRE file just modified, rather than setting, those base statistics - but the Infinity Engine doesn't work that way.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If we want to slightly nerf celestials (e.g. worse thac0) I'm open to discuss it, and I can probably agree on some aspects, but the whole "18/18 vs 18" is really meaningless.

Well, I don't care if you put the Level to be 1 or 100, but the creatures statistics need to be in control, so when you make the charactercreature, you need to really think on what level you set the character as... so you get the result you want to get. So you don't drop a character that's worth a 4750000xp to a summoner's list that only needs to have 3375000xp to create it.

As I know that you make the creature by first making a new character in the game, then you level it up with a XP cheat so you get the basic stats to somewhat right, then you export it and then perhaps adjust it later with a IE tool. I know this because it's the way I do it... did it.

Now, lets' check what the stats were if we went with the rule I would have wrote, "Caster is able to summon only characterscreatures that were made with less than their equal XP points."

Planetar;Class= Fighter/Cleric class, equivalent level when summoner at levels beyond 17: 14/15, actual level can be 50/50 if you so wish.

Hit points: ~128 (start a new game on Easy, make a Half-Elf Fighter/Cleric with 18 in Con, and give it 3150000xp, and level up, you'll have exactly 128 Hit Points)

Thac0: ~8 (=20+1-14)

Attacks per round: Add effect that set's it to level you wish it to be, so the character file and creature level doesn't matter.

Etc. (planetars don't have HLA's because they are summons, but they can have extra ordinary abilities, like the sword, damage resistances etc. and be close to that of the casters equivalent level ...)

 

Of course if you wish to give the Planetar more staying power, you do it with the spell, at level 25, 35, 45... whichever, not at level 17! And you actually can call that Greater Planetar, or whatever you feel like.

 

at high levels (fighters only)

Warriors only(Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers+their Kits). And yes, the Barbarian is a Fighter Kit, but so what. Edited August 19, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

As I know that you make the creature by first making a new character in the game, then you level it up with a XP cheat so you get the basic stats to somewhat right, then you export it and then perhaps adjust it later with a IE tool. I know this because it's the way I do it... did it.

 

It's not the way I do it (and it's fairly obvious from the CRE files that it's not the way the developers do it). And (unlike 3.0 or 3.5) the AD&D leveling system really isn't suited for this sort of method of assessing creature strength (and there is no direct map from creature HD, THAC0 etc onto character level, THAC0 etc.)

 

at high levels (fighters only)

Warriors only(Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers+their Kits). And yes, the Barbarian is a Fighter Kit, but so what.

 

Sorry, I meant warriors.

[Jarno Mikkola]

As I know that you* make the creature by first making a new character in the game...

It's not the way I do it...

But the point was, that in the case of the Planetars, Demivrgvs did, as you can see from looking at the stats... like I pointed out in the post before the last...

 

(and there is no direct map from creature HD, THAC0 etc onto character level, THAC0 etc.)

Hmm, and you made a mod that made the casters able to cast the same spells their character 'friends' were able to... interesting.

No, that's not critiic, it's actually admiration.

 

I meant warriors.

I definitely know that, just tried to be accurate. And ended up being a donkey.

[Demivrgvs]

As I know that you make the creature by first making a new character in the game, then you level it up with a XP cheat so you get the basic stats to somewhat right, then you export it and then perhaps adjust it later with a IE tool. I know this because it's the way I do it... did it.

It's not the way I do it (and it's fairly obvious from the CRE files that it's not the way the developers do it). And (unlike 3.0 or 3.5) the AD&D leveling system really isn't suited for this sort of method of assessing creature strength (and there is no direct map from creature HD, THAC0 etc onto character level, THAC0 etc.)

Not to mention that creatures without an actual "PC class" cannot be build Jarno's way at all, and at least half of vanilla's creatures hadn't a class assigned.

 

Jarno, I could put here a "wall of text" to describe you how I build creatures but I think most players really cannot care less of it, thus let's return to more on-topic matters.

 

A "nerfed" Planetar may have base thac0 7 (3/4 of 18HD) and 128 hit points (if we want summons' hit points to be more similar to AD&D progression instead of 3rd ed one).

 

 

Edit:

As I know that you* make the creature by first making a new character in the game...

It's not the way I do it...

But the point was, that in the case of the Planetars, Demivrgvs did, as you can see from looking at the stats... like I pointed out in the post before the last...

NO. I DIDN'T. Edited August 19, 2010 by Demivrgvs