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[yarpen]

Additional hit points are probably more appropriate for a necromantic spell like Spirit Armor. Regarding it being a poor alternative to Mage Armor I can only say that it has slightly better AC, it's not affected by Breach and can be cast on others (this last feature alone is worth a +1 lvl), but I agree it's not particularly appealing.

Adding hit-point bonus to this spell isn't so bad. In 3rd edition there was a spell called False Life. Or did I created it? I don't remember. Still, it added 20 additional hit points, but lowered saving throw vs. death by 2. What about making such a spell 1-shot protection from necromancy spell?

Edited January 11, 2011 by yarpen

[Dakk]

Making Sanctuary more useful can only be a good thing, especially if it's something SCS(II) clerics could/would take advantage of.

My plan was "simply" to make it work as per PnP, thus allowing the cleric to heal and buff both himself and his allies without ending the spell.

Oh, I thought the discussion was to (also?) set casting speed to 1? I'm still in favour though, makes it cool and useful.

[amanasleep]

Already clerics are much more powerful than is generally supposed because of Sanctuary--but keep in mind my change was to help the AI Priests be more competitive. The player can easily make do with casting time of 4 for Sanctuary. The "disadvantage" of not being able to help the party while sanctuaried is negligible considering the priest has likely cast the spell to avoid death himself! In any event the problem for DavidW as I understand it was Enemy priests that were not in a party.

 

Indeed. But is Sanctuary really so effective then? What about area-effect magic?

 

Area affect still hits the Priest, but they can't be hit with weapons or single target spells, while still being able to cast protections. This is almost equivalent to Mislead.

 

Of course, the party can respond with fireballs, etc. which will disrupt the priest, but clerics have a lot of HP and could have specific protections against elemental magic, etc. The party can have TS running, which may dispel sanctuary this round or the next, but weapon damage is stopped immediately, and the priest can move around randomly with his null turn to get out of the way of incoming party AoE. In particular scripting dispels for high level priest enemies can make sure that TS don't hang around long.

 

Sanctuary (with a decent casting time) will certainly require players to spend time dealing with it. I don't think it will make Solo Priests as fearsome as mages, but it improves their survivability. It will definitely improve enemy party priests.

[Demivrgvs]

Ghost Armor

Additional hit points are probably more appropriate for a necromantic spell like Spirit Armor. Regarding it being a poor alternative to Mage Armor I can only say that it has slightly better AC, it's not affected by Breach and can be cast on others (this last feature alone is worth a +1 lvl), but I agree it's not particularly appealing.

Adding hit-point bonus to this spell isn't so bad. In 3rd edition there was a spell called False Life. Or did I created it? I don't remember. Still, it added 20 additional hit points, but lowered saving throw vs. death by 2. What about making such a spell 1-shot protection from necromancy spell?

False Life is indeed a 3rd edition spell, it's pratically a lesser Aid spell for necromancers (raises only hit points, and cannot be targeted on others). That being said, I don't have much space for 2nd lvl spells (I have two slots right now, but I've planned to fill them with Geedle's Electric Loop and Snilloc's Snowball Swarm), and this one in particular isn't a must-have imo, because such effect could indeed be added to either Ghost Armor or Spirit Armor. This way we'd make a pre-existing spell much more appealing instead of adding a new spell only players would use.

 

 

Sanctuary

Making Sanctuary more useful can only be a good thing, especially if it's something SCS(II) clerics could/would take advantage of.

My plan was "simply" to make it work as per PnP, thus allowing the cleric to heal and buff both himself and his allies without ending the spell.

Oh, I thought the discussion was to (also?) set casting speed to 1? I'm still in favour though, makes it cool and useful.

Well, I said my plan was to make it as per PnP, not that I'm absolutely against amanasleep's suggestion to lower it casting time to 1. I'm worried a fixed Sanctuary with instant casting time could be seriously exploited by players, but this is mostly because one of the changes to make it as per PnP involves it not being affected by Divination spells such as True Seeing. Am I the only one finding too strange that Detect Invisibility dispels Sanctuary?

 

@David, what do you think about:

a) lowering casting time to 1?

b) making it not affected by Divinations?

 

Area affect still hits the Priest, but they can't be hit with weapons or single target spells, while still being able to cast protections. This is almost equivalent to Mislead.

Yep, this is more or less a Mislead spell which doesn't allow offensive actions.

 

Of course, the party can respond with fireballs, etc. which will disrupt the priest, but clerics have a lot of HP and could have specific protections against elemental magic, etc.

With the pre-buffed option (which I don't particularly like for cosmetic reasons*) this can indeed make the cleric completely immune to damage, at least assuming SR's version of ProElement spells.

 

(*) David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better. In theory I'd remove also spells names (to avoid all those text messages saying those spells are cast at the start of the encounter), but some players may not like it because they wouldn't know the ongoing buffs as usuals.

[yarpen]

(*) David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better. In theory I'd remove also spells names (to avoid all those text messages saying those spells are cast at the start of the encounter), but some players may not like it because they wouldn't know the ongoing buffs as usuals.

That 'd create a nice place for spell called Detect Magic. As far as I know there is an opcode which is called like this - but spell itself would show to player all active spells on creatures in x radius. What about improving Identification to Detect Magic? As knock gained some combat capabilities, that'd grant a nice edge to Diviners. I mean spell which can be casted on battlefield (which detects buffs and active spells) or identifies items.

[Ardanis]

Sanctuary

I don't mind it having both 1 casting speed and immunity to divination. If it doesn't allow any offensive move, I see little room for exploiting the spell.

 

Identify

Would it actually help to know there're dispellable effects? It probably would, were it telling exact spells active, but how'd you do that? I only can think of using a repeating EFF, guarded by another repeating shell, the latter being blockable by Identify so that the first one can speak for a brief moment. But it may have a hole or two with timing delays.

On a good side, detection can be tied to caster's level, so that they can only recognize spells they may cast.

 

PS Hm, I suppose I may try it out when I get to another round of modding/testing.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Ardanis

[yarpen]

I don't mind it having both 1 casting speed and immunity to divination. If it doesn't allow any offensive move, I see little room for exploiting the spell.

But for sure, Blade Barrier should remove it. But then... damn, Fireshield should too. But that's a bit logical. ;]

[DavidW]

David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better.

Can you clarify the motivation?

In theory I'd remove also spells names (to avoid all those text messages saying those spells are cast at the start of the encounter), but some players may not like it because they wouldn't know the ongoing buffs as usuals.

 

I'd rather not, because I'd rather err on the side of transparency. The enemy wizards know what spells you're using, after all.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't mind it having both 1 casting speed and immunity to divination. If it doesn't allow any offensive move, I see little room for exploiting the spell.

But for sure, Blade Barrier should remove it. But then... damn, Fireshield should too. But that's a bit logical. ;]

Actually both spells should make you immune to the Sanctuary spell, and for a good guarantee, remove it as well.

[Dakk]

Ghost Armor

Additional hit points are probably more appropriate for a necromantic spell like Spirit Armor. Regarding it being a poor alternative to Mage Armor I can only say that it has slightly better AC, it's not affected by Breach and can be cast on others (this last feature alone is worth a +1 lvl), but I agree it's not particularly appealing.

Adding hit-point bonus to this spell isn't so bad. In 3rd edition there was a spell called False Life. Or did I created it? I don't remember. Still, it added 20 additional hit points, but lowered saving throw vs. death by 2. What about making such a spell 1-shot protection from necromancy spell?

False Life is indeed a 3rd edition spell, it's pratically a lesser Aid spell for necromancers (raises only hit points, and cannot be targeted on others). That being said, I don't have much space for 2nd lvl spells (I have two slots right now, but I've planned to fill them with Geedle's Electric Loop and Snilloc's Snowball Swarm), and this one in particular isn't a must-have imo, because such effect could indeed be added to either Ghost Armor or Spirit Armor. This way we'd make a pre-existing spell much more appealing instead of adding a new spell only players would use.

I don't mind at all an illusionary protection adding HP. In the way Armour class (AC) isn't really armour (but also DEX, illusions, etc) extra HP could just as well be imagined as the aggressor believing he just chopped the hand off the mage - but he didn't. In other words, you don't have to lose body parts / bleed to lose HP, but the enemy believing you do could result in it too (rationalized as the aggressor believing he's hurting you, and thereby affecting how he fights).

Agreed on adding effects instead of spells.

 

Sanctuary

Making Sanctuary more useful can only be a good thing, especially if it's something SCS(II) clerics could/would take advantage of.

My plan was "simply" to make it work as per PnP, thus allowing the cleric to heal and buff both himself and his allies without ending the spell.

Oh, I thought the discussion was to (also?) set casting speed to 1? I'm still in favour though, makes it cool and useful.

Well, I said my plan was to make it as per PnP, not that I'm absolutely against amanasleep's suggestion to lower it casting time to 1. I'm worried a fixed Sanctuary with instant casting time could be seriously exploited by players, but this is mostly because one of the changes to make it as per PnP involves it not being affected by Divination spells such as True Seeing. Am I the only one finding too strange that Detect Invisibility dispels Sanctuary?

I'm in favour of not letting divinations dispel Sanctuary. Self heal and buff is also cool, I'm not convinced about letting the priest heal and buff others though Regarding casting time, I'd say that if you can heal and buff others, then 1 could possibly be OP(?), but probably not for only self-targeted spells. Lastly, I don't mind to allow Fire Shield, Blade Barrier and the like. As long as it's self-targeted only, I'm good with it.

 

(*) David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better. In theory I'd remove also spells names (to avoid all those text messages saying those spells are cast at the start of the encounter), but some players may not like it because they wouldn't know the ongoing buffs as usuals.

Ooooh, no animation pre-buff would have an enormous aesthetic appeal!

Edited January 11, 2011 by Dakk

[Demivrgvs]

Pre-buffs

David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better.

Can you clarify the motivation?

Sure. Because right now the supposed pre-buffs look like contingencies, and at the start of the encounter you see tons of animations play on the caster. It's very immersion breaking (at least imo) and makes it look like mages are cheating by casting tons of free Contingencies. I know it may involve some boring additional work, I was just thinking loud, but for me this "issue" alone is enough to make pre-buff option unbearable. I don't know if I'm the only one around feeling this way, am I?

 

Edit:

Ooooh, no animation pre-buff would have an enormous aesthetic appeal!

I'm not.

 

 

Sanctuary

@David, may I ask you to reply to my questions?

 

I don't mind it having both 1 casting speed and immunity to divination. If it doesn't allow any offensive move, I see little room for exploiting the spell.

But for sure, Blade Barrier should remove it. But then... damn, Fireshield should too. But that's a bit logical. ;]

I've already blocked Sanctuary+Blade Barrier exploit ages ago (I think in V2). Fireshields instead cannot be exploited because opponents need to see and hit the caster for it to work. Edited January 11, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[DavidW]

Sanctuary

@David, may I ask you to reply to my questions?

 

I'm ambivalent about whether it's a good idea but at worst I think it's not going to cause major problems; at best I think it's pretty good. As long as the spell doesn't actively hide the graphic, though, it's definitely more useful for players than the enemy, as PCs can see Sanctuaried creatures but the computer can't. In your place I might actually consider slapping on an Invisibility effect.

 

Re prebuffing: I'll give it some thought. You're right that it's a bit of a pain to implement, but not horrendously so.

Edited January 11, 2011 by DavidW

[Kalindor]

Sanctuary

I don't mind it having both 1 casting speed and immunity to divination. If it doesn't allow any offensive move, I see little room for exploiting the spell.

Agree.

 

David, I don't know if I've already suggested you this, but have you ever thought about making SCS copies of pre-buff spells with no animations? I know it's only a cosmetic tweak but for me it would make the pre-buff option A LOT better.

I assume you mean "no casting glow" and not "no spell VFX." I would vote yes for the no casting glow but it doesn't seem to be a large enough deal to copy every spell that is going to be prebuffed by any mage in the game.

[Demivrgvs]

Sanctuary

Sanctuary

@David, may I ask you to reply to my questions?

 

I'm ambivalent about whether it's a good idea but at worst I think it's not going to cause major problems; at best I think it's pretty good. As long as the spell doesn't actively hide the graphic, though, it's definitely more useful for players than the enemy, as PCs can see Sanctuaried creatures but the computer can't. In your place I might actually consider slapping on an Invisibility effect.

Ok, seems pretty much everyone is fine with lowering its casting time to 1 and making it not affected by divinations. Fine.

 

Regarding your suggestion to slap an invisibility effect on it I'd go for it only if you need it, because in terms of concept Sanctuary really shouldn't make the cleric invisible. Actually for the huge revision I had in mind to make it work as per PnP I planned to not use 'sanctuary' opcode at all (because it gets dispelled even if the cleric cast a Cure Wound spell on himself), but rather a 'protection from creature' opcode working on any creature type. Would that help you (ake the AI) in any way? I seem to remember that liches were able to cast Dispel or similar spells to creatures using ProUndead scrolls, as well as I'm almost sure RR PnP fiends cast a bunch of spells to tear down ProEvil spells.

 

 

Pre-buffs without animations

I'll give it some thought. You're right that it's a bit of a pain to implement, but not horrendously so.

Cool.

 

I assume you mean "no casting glow" and not "no spell VFX." I would vote yes for the no casting glow but it doesn't seem to be a large enough deal to copy every spell that is going to be prebuffed by any mage in the game.

I mean no animation at all, including any lightning effect or vvc used when the spell is cast. It's not a small deal for some spells (e.g. Stoneskin animation is extremely noticeable). Edited January 11, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[Dakk]

I assume you mean "no casting glow" and not "no spell VFX." I would vote yes for the no casting glow but it doesn't seem to be a large enough deal to copy every spell that is going to be prebuffed by any mage in the game.

I mean no animation at all, including any lightning effect or vvc used when the spell is cast. It's not a small deal for some spells (e.g. Stoneskin animation is extremely noticeable).

That's the request I'm going with also. Btw, is Stoneskin the giant brown maw in the ground?