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But what will be the new cap for saving trows in SRv4 ? Obvisously Web should respect the cap...

 

Of course an improved entangle effect would be the best but if we can't do it, the non stackable ability idea is better Imo (keeping 10rounds duration and respecting the saving throws cap) . I agree it would not make sence in comparaison to some others area spells witch stack but maybe we can do an exception here.

 

Thanks to Stinking cloud , well would remain appealing in a minor sequencer.

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Of course an improved entangle effect would be the best
Evard's Black Tentacles? :)

 

EDIT

Acid Sheath

So, ToBEx now allows for increased damage. Which means that little PnP feature of this spell can work too.

Edited by Ardanis
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Enchanted Weapon

Did you decide not to add darts, throwing daggers, and throwing axes to the enchanted weapon list?
Good point, I probably just forgot about them, though not having any existing resource for them might have influenced it (e.g. I don't have any bam for them). I may put it in the to do list for V4, but I cannot promise it until I have the bams for them. That being said, how many of them should be created by the spell? Darts may be 40 as arrows/bolts/bullets but 40 throwing axes/daggers seem too much for some reason...
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Feeblemind

Move here vanilla's Miscast Magic? In 3rd Ed this spell lowers INT and CHA, so connection must be obvious.

For the secondary effect, casting speed penalty is fine imo.

 

Except, as noted, a target worthy of this spell and vulnerable to it is usually no longer a danger anyway.

 

Lowering INT can make a grunt more susceptible to Maze, but Imprisonment is just one level higher. And it bears the danger of instakilling with INT-drain.

 

...

Nope, I still wouldn't use it.

 

True Strike

It's not very useful imo...

Change it to one-time critical hit, with duration of 1 turn? It would work well with touch spells in their current implementation.

 

Shadow Shield

From NWN, as a replacement for SI:Necromancy.

Immunity to necromancy, death effects, level drain, 1 round/lvl, 7th level. Maybe keep +5 AC bonus too, I dunno.

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Feeblemind

Move here vanilla's Miscast Magic? In 3rd Ed this spell lowers INT and CHA, so connection must be obvious.

For the secondary effect, casting speed penalty is fine imo.

 

Except, as noted, a target worthy of this spell and vulnerable to it is usually no longer a danger anyway.

 

Lowering INT can make a grunt more susceptible to Maze, but Imprisonment is just one level higher. And it bears the danger of instakilling with INT-drain.

 

...

Nope, I still wouldn't use it.

The last sentence says it all. :) Anyway, Miscast Magic (aka spell failure) is pointless as a primary effect considering the current main effect is much better (it completely disable the target), and INT drain is problematic. Spell failure can probably be as good as casting speed penalty (or even combined with it) but I have to agree with Raj's post, this won't help much the appeal of this spell, because an "unprotected" spellcaster can be killed with cheaper spells (or in general spells that you'd pick anyway because they are useful in more situations) or by few physical attacks.

 

The point is we should make this spell an appealing alternative to Domination (which has a more powerful main effect), thus something you'd want to cast to "unprotected" spellcasters (but how?) or at least against spellcaster-like opponents with no access to spell protections (e.g. mind flayers, Githyanki, etc.), or better against anyone (despite its original concept which is clearly 'anti spellcaster'). I can throw here a random suggestion that may be crazy: stunning damage. I planned to use 'stunning damage' as a secondary effect for a couple of mind affecting spells (Phantasmal Killer and Weird), and in theory it can fit this spell as well. Those two illusion spells have such effect in PnP (dmg type is not specified, but BG's stunning/non-lethal damage is simply perfect imo), thus I'm not inventing anything new, I'm just extending the whole "mind affecting spells can damage the target" concpet to one more spell. What do you think? Any other idea?

 

 

True Strike

It's not very useful imo...

Change it to one-time critical hit, with duration of 1 turn? It would work well with touch spells in their current implementation.

Mmm...you do want to use a secondary type everywhere! :goodwork: Wouldn't this turn it into a sort of Critical Strike HLA? :) Another crazy idea I discarded back then was to make it grant fighter's THAC0 (one of TT's many bonuses) for a relatively short time (e.g. 1 turn). Both yours and mine ideas don't convince me for some reason...let's see if other players want to share their opinion.

 

On a side note, do you remember we planned to drastically limit the amount of touch spells (e.g. the whole discussion about Cause Wound spells)?

 

 

Shadow Shield

From NWN, as a replacement for SI:Necromancy.

Immunity to necromancy, death effects, level drain, 1 round/lvl, 7th level. Maybe keep +5 AC bonus too, I dunno.

Leaving aside for a moment that I don't undertand the concept behind an illusion spell working like SI:Necr (even if I know almost everything shadow-related belongs to the illusion school), I thought we were kinda persuaded to keep that damn Spell Immunity within V4. I'll try to find those discussions with David and read them again. Edited by Demivrgvs
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Guest Thailog

Hello.

 

I've been playing BG1 and BG2 with this mod for a while and I thought I'd drop by the official forum and say thanks. It's really amazing how much work the authors have put into this. Revising the entire spell system of BG2 is truly remarkable, kudos to you guys. If you don't mind, I'd like to share with you some of the experiences from my playthrough.

 

 

Things I liked:

 

- Buffing spells like Bless, Mirror Image, Blur and such finally have reasonable durations. I've barely ever used those spells in the original game (especially Luck) and now I cast them all the time. By the way, I think it might be even better if their duration improved with levels. Perhaps you could make it 3 turns + 3 rounds/level or something, instead of everything simply lasting 5 turns.

- Ranged Spiritual Hammer simply rocks. Not sure if this is due to Spell Revisions or aTweaks, but it's awesome either way. I've had Branwen in the party during my entire Tutu run and she was using it constantly to great effect.

- I love how Shillelagh, Flame Blade and Black Blade of Disaster now use proper proficiencies. On one hand, it doesn't penalize characters who haven't got those proficiencies (as the spell grants them one free point) but it also rewards dual and multi-class characters who usually have more points since it allows them to reap the full benefit from the proficiency bonuses. Hats off to an excellent feature.

- Break Enchantment is a very cool addition. Finally, a way to get rid of that pesky confusion without dispelling all buffs from your partymembers. Very cool. Just wondering, could you make it cure charm too?

- Summoning spells now rock. They were almost useless in the original game but you managed to make each of them unique and interesting in its own way. Great work.

 

 

 

A few suggestions:

 

- I've noticed that Detect Invisibility no longer reveals enemies who are inside a Globe of Invulnerability, while it used to do that in the original game. Now I might be wrong here but, reading the description of the spell, I get the impression that it only affects the caster by bestowing him with the ability to see invisible creatures. In my view, the spell doesn't actually interact with the enemies in any way. Therefore, I think it shouldn't be subject to Globes of Invulnerability and such things.

- Similarly, True Seeing no longer reveals invisible Rakshasa, while it used to do that in the original game. Same argument as above.

- I think Shadow Door is a bit too powerful now, it acts like some kind of mass Maze and it's just a level 5 spell, while the regular single-target Maze is level 7. I've stopped using it because it kinda felt too cheesy. A suggestion, how about lowering the duration of the maze to 1 round and getting rid of the save penalty (-4 is simply too much) or just ditching the secondary effect completely?

- The duration of the Sleep spell is far too short now. Since you let enemies awaken when they take damage, the spell is already nerfed (in a good way), so I'd suggest returning the duration to 5 rounds/level as it was in the original game.

- I don't like the new animation of Lightning Bolt, it just feels too slow. An arc of lightning should strike fast, not float casually toward an enemy like a soap bubble. The spell itself is cool though, I like that you changed it to single target, no bounce. Much easier to use this way.

- With the lowered duration of invisibility spells, it's no longer possible to use them to avoid random encounters while traveling between areas. This is most apparent in BG1 where these encounters can be quite dangerous. It also makes it harder to smuggle Duke Eltan through Baldur's Gate without alarming the Flaming Fist soldiers in Chapter 7. Is there a chance that you could reconsider this change?

 

 

All in all, I really think this is a great mod. I especially like how it strives to make every spell useful in some way. Great job!

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Feeblemind
Move here vanilla's Miscast Magic? In 3rd Ed this spell lowers INT and CHA, so connection must be obvious.

For the secondary effect, casting speed penalty is fine imo.

 

Except, as noted, a target worthy of this spell and vulnerable to it is usually no longer a danger anyway.

 

Lowering INT can make a grunt more susceptible to Maze, but Imprisonment is just one level higher. And it bears the danger of instakilling with INT-drain.

 

...

Nope, I still wouldn't use it.

The last sentence says it all. :) Anyway, Miscast Magic (aka spell failure) is pointless as a primary effect considering the current main effect is much better (it completely disable the target), and INT drain is problematic. Spell failure can probably be as good as casting speed penalty (or even combined with it) but I have to agree with Raj's post, this won't help much the appeal of this spell, because an "unprotected" spellcaster can be killed with cheaper spells (or in general spells that you'd pick anyway because they are useful in more situations) or by few physical attacks.

 

The point is we should make this spell an appealing alternative to Domination (which has a more powerful main effect), thus something you'd want to cast to "unprotected" spellcasters (but how?) or at least against spellcaster-like opponents with no access to spell protections (e.g. mind flayers, Githyanki, etc.), or better against anyone (despite its original concept which is clearly 'anti spellcaster'). I can throw here a random suggestion that may be crazy: stunning damage. I planned to use 'stunning damage' as a secondary effect for a couple of mind affecting spells (Phantasmal Killer and Weird), and in theory it can fit this spell as well. Those two illusion spells have such effect in PnP (dmg type is not specified, but BG's stunning/non-lethal damage is simply perfect imo), thus I'm not inventing anything new, I'm just extending the whole "mind affecting spells can damage the target" concpet to one more spell. What do you think? Any other idea?

 

 

We have 4 disabling spells at M5:

 

Feeblemind

Single Target

Standard Save penalty

100% Disables any target

 

Domination

Single Target

Standard Save penalty

100% Disables any target AND counts as a summon for the party

 

Hold Monster

Small Area (must have 1 target)

Standard Save penalty

100% Disables any target

 

Chaos

Large Area (ground target)

Standard Save penalty

Disables targets, but some melee will still attack

 

I think the differences between Chaos and Hold Monster adequately differentiate them. Domination is properly powered for its level.

 

That leaves Feeblemind. It is underpowered for L5, and L5 has too many disabling spells. I think it either needs to be at L4 with a -3 penalty, where it will contrast well with Polymorph Other, or else it could be made an area spell at L5. Maybe if the effect disabled spells but not melee? Still too much overlap with either Chaos or Hold Monster.

 

As for Miscast magic, this points out the conundrum with anti-mage spells: if they are single target they are useless, since you could have cast Breach to guarantee death. Serious consideration should be made towards making any anti mage spell an area effect or bypass invisibility somehow.

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I've been playing BG1 and BG2 with this mod for a while and I thought I'd drop by the official forum and say thanks. It's really amazing how much work the authors have put into this. Revising the entire spell system of BG2 is truly remarkable, kudos to you guys. ... All in all, I really think this is a great mod. I especially like how it strives to make every spell useful in some way. Great job!
Thanks. :)

 

If you don't mind, I'd like to share with you some of the experiences from my playthrough.
I feed on feedback! :goodwork:

 

Low level buffs

- Buffing spells like Bless, Mirror Image, Blur and such finally have reasonable durations. I've barely ever used those spells in the original game (especially Luck) and now I cast them all the time. By the way, I think it might be even better if their duration improved with levels. Perhaps you could make it 3 turns + 3 rounds/level or something, instead of everything simply lasting 5 turns.
Well, it's a long story but I'll try to explain why I used those fixed 5 turns.

 

Those buffs, and low lvl spells in general (*), don't work well with a 1 round/lvl (or similar) duration because it means they last almost nothing early on (for the entire game in case of BG1), which coupled with their dispellability makes them extremely unappealing. Even 1 turn/lvl doesn't work too well imo because it's not enough very early (when you need those spells the most because you don't have access to higher lvl spells) and too much later on (when they become very cheap spells), though the latter is bearable. For some reason I don't like the "x base duration + y/lvl formula", but even If I could live with that it wouldn't change too much the equation imo, because the +y bonus would either be too small to matter or too big when maxed out. Anyway, I'll think a little more about it, and see what other players think.

 

(*) A particular mention imo should go to PnP summoning spells because I think they are really screwed up by their 1 round/lvl duration. Early on you have a valuable creature that doesn't last enough to matter, and later on you have a very weak creature that cannot help you much even if it lasts.

 

Spiritual Hammer

- Ranged Spiritual Hammer simply rocks. Not sure if this is due to Spell Revisions or aTweaks, but it's awesome either way. I've had Branwen in the party during my entire Tutu run and she was using it constantly to great effect.
If I'm not wrong I and aVENGER did this almost the same thing.

 

Magically created weapons

- I love how Shillelagh, Flame Blade and Black Blade of Disaster now use proper proficiencies. On one hand, it doesn't penalize characters who haven't got those proficiencies (as the spell grants them one free point) but it also rewards dual and multi-class characters who usually have more points since it allows them to reap the full benefit from the proficiency bonuses. Hats off to an excellent feature.
:thumbsup:

 

Break Enchantment

- Break Enchantment is a very cool addition. Finally, a way to get rid of that pesky confusion without dispelling all buffs from your partymembers. Very cool. Just wondering, could you make it cure charm too?
I couldn't do that back then, but we know how to achieve this now and we should be able to do this for V4.

 

Summons

- Summoning spells now rock. They were almost useless in the original game but you managed to make each of them unique and interesting in its own way. Great work.
Summons were the most time consuming thing I ever worked on (except familiars), I'm glad it payed off. :cringe: You may like to know we're planning to work on them even more for V4 (adding a bunch of new creatures, and even illusion based ones).

 

Detect Invisibility & True Seeing

- I've noticed that Detect Invisibility no longer reveals enemies who are inside a Globe of Invulnerability, while it used to do that in the original game. Now I might be wrong here but, reading the description of the spell, I get the impression that it only affects the caster by bestowing him with the ability to see invisible creatures. In my view, the spell doesn't actually interact with the enemies in any way. Therefore, I think it shouldn't be subject to Globes of Invulnerability and such things.

- Similarly, True Seeing no longer reveals invisible Rakshasa, while it used to do that in the original game.

This has recently come up in another topic, and you do have a point though the way these spells work within BG is dubious. In PnP the caster would see the invisible creature without dispelling it for his/her companions, whereas BG version of these spells actually directly affect the targets stripping them of their invisibility. In fact PnP's Invisibility Purge (3rd lvl, abjuration) wouldn't be identical to Detect Invisibility (2nd lvl, divination), because the former would directly affect the targets effectively dispelling the effect. Ironically, due to BG engine, following your suggestion (allowing DI to ignore GoI and similar protections) and not doing the same to IP would make the latter less powerful than the former (the opposite of what it should be).

 

That being said, I'm really sympathetic to this, especially for True Seeing. I'd like to know other opinions on this matter.

 

Shadow Door

- I think Shadow Door is a bit too powerful now, it acts like some kind of mass Maze and it's just a level 5 spell, while the regular single-target Maze is level 7. I've stopped using it because it kinda felt too cheesy. A suggestion, how about lowering the duration of the maze to 1 round and getting rid of the save penalty (-4 is simply too much) or just ditching the secondary effect completely?
I think I'll reduce or even remove the save penalty if we agree the effect triggers too easily (this alone would be a huge enough nerf imo). Otoh I do want the duration to still depend on target's INT (as of now those with INT 18+ may escape in 1 round, those with INT 15-17 need at least 2 rounds, those with 12-14 need at least 3, those with less than INT 12 always take 4 rounds) thus I won't change the 1-4 round duration to fixed 1.

 

Note that the maze-like effect used by SD isn't as powerful as a true Maze spell, because the latter:

- generally lasts much longer (creatures with mid-low INT like most warriors can take ages to escape it)

- affects any type of creature (SD has no effect on extremely intelligent ones or those immune to illusions)

- isn't stopped by True Seeing (a relatively common spell for SCS priests and mages)

- can be cast at long range

- DOESN'T ALLOW A SAVE

If you ask me, it's more about Maze not being extremely appealing for an 8th lvl slot (it's a good spell, but it's very situational and it needs to be part of a more wide tactic to be useful) rather than Shadow Door being too powerful (except the aforementioned save penalty which is indeed harsh right now).

 

Sleep

- The duration of the Sleep spell is far too short now. Since you let enemies awaken when they take damage, the spell is already nerfed (in a good way), so I'd suggest returning the duration to 5 rounds/level as it was in the original game.
Well, I wouldn't say the spell per se is nerfed, it's actually much more powerful. It's less OP early on sure (BG1) but it's finally usable for the entire game (it was completely useless within BG2). Anyway, increasing its duration may be fine, but 10 rounds would be more than enough imo.

 

Lightning Bolt

- I don't like the new animation of Lightning Bolt, it just feels too slow. An arc of lightning should strike fast, not float casually toward an enemy like a soap bubble. The spell itself is cool though, I like that you changed it to single target, no bounce. Much easier to use this way.
if it's only a matter of speed I can easily increase it, but I also think Ardanis hinted me a way to restore vanilla's animation without using the hardcoded projectile. I'll look into it.

 

Invisibility spells

- With the lowered duration of invisibility spells, it's no longer possible to use them to avoid random encounters while traveling between areas. ... Is there a chance that you could reconsider this change?
I didn't reduced the duration of any of those spells afaik. :) Edited by Demivrgvs
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Guest Thailog

Hey, I'm glad you considered some of my suggestions. It's very nice of you to involve your mod's players in the decision making process. :)

 

Shadow Door

If you ask me, it's more about Maze not being extremely appealing for an 8th lvl slot (it's a good spell, but it's very situational and it needs to be part of a more wide tactic to be useful) rather than Shadow Door being too powerful (except the aforementioned save penalty which is indeed harsh right now).

 

You do make some good points about Maze possibly being too weak for its level. On the other hand, I think that Shadow Door is primarily supposed to be a fast defensive spell, not a tool for mass enemy removal. Just my 2 cents of course, I simply felt that its current form was too strong when I used it.

 

Invisibility spells

I didn't reduced the duration of any of those spells afaik

 

In the original game, basic invisibility (provided by the 2nd level spell) used to last 24 hours, now it wears off after just 8. That's not enough to travel between most areas, so random encounters in BG1 can become quite messy. As said earlier, avoiding these encounters using invisibility is a very popular strategy in BG1, especially early on when the party is still very weak.

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Feeblemind

I fully agree with Amanasleep. There're four disabling spells on 5th level, and each one belongs to the Enchantment school.

As for Miscast magic, this points out the conundrum with anti-mage spells: if they are single target they are useless, since you could have cast Breach to guarantee death. Serious consideration should be made towards making any anti mage spell an area effect or bypass invisibility somehow.
I think I like the AoE idea. I most definitely WILL memorize it then.

 

Another wild thought - rename this spell to Solipsism (the effect is identical to BG2's feeblemindedness) and pretend that having a useless Illusion spell makes a difference.

Or remove completely and use the space for something else entirely new.

 

Shadow Door

It still has AoE, and grunts are ones who tend to swarm a foe.

 

Speaking of capped duration, do you know that maze opcode works by force applying the delayed freedom effect onto the target? It's possible to cast Maze, then Freedom, the Imprisonment, then watch how the character pops up well and fine once Maze's freedom kicks in. Worse yet, there seem to be no way to protect from it, even 101 doesn't work against freedom opcode (regardless of it's source).

 

Lightning Bolt

if it's only a matter of speed I can easily increase it, but I also think Ardanis hinted me a way to restore vanilla's animation without using the hardcoded projectile. I'll look into it.
Yes, the LIGHTBLT projectile. Edited by Ardanis
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