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[Demivrgvs]

Cure Wounds

If I'm not wrong you're saying: who cares if we make these spells too weak early on, players would still need them because they are essential anyway.

I get the feeling you guys don't play much BG1, do you? As any BG1 player will tell you, healing spells are absolutely essential at lower levels.

 

Nerfing them in this manner would disrupt the game balance greatly.

I really have no intention of nerfing healing spells, quite the opposite. The above mentioned solution (which is just a theory for now, I don't have a real table for it) actually improves them all with only one exception which I do mentioned and I do consider something we should avoid: CLW at 1st (2-3 hp) and 2nd lvl (4-6) is too much nerfed. Starting from 3rd lvl the suggested CLW would more or less match V3 or vanilla's versions (6-9 hp, 4-11 hp and 8 hp respectively), and from 4th lvl onwards it would greatly surpass them.

 

CMW would be fine as soon as you get it with a L3 priest, as it would cure something like 12-18 hit points. Vanilla's CMW was available only to L5 priests and cured 14 hp with a 3rd lvl spell slot. CSW and CCW on the other hand may even be kinda OP with the whole 60-80% of max health theory.

 

As I said, I haven't "studied" this much, and I generally prefer to delve into the whole thing (A LOT) before really approving a radical change like the one we're talking about. That being said, I already see too many problems within it to be a real solution (e.g. CLW at low lvls is too weak, CSW and CCW would probably be OP).

 

I have to spend some more time looking at the whole picture.

Don't put too much effort into it Demi, the current (SR) system is excellent.

Thanks. I could probably agree if we were talking about BG1 only, in that case CW spells are fine with the current solution. The "problem" arises imo within mid game SoA, where the appeal of these spells quickly vanish. I guess we could say "who cares, it's probably given for granted that by then you have to rely on Mass Cure and Heal and ignore lower lvl CW spells", fine...but why should it be so when we do managed to keep almost all other spells interesting even later on?

 

Then, it all becomes much more clear when you put into this discussion the reverse of these spells, Cause Wounds. Looking at them you can quickly realize how silly the values are. Vanilla's values are not even worth a discussion: Cause Serious Wounds (a 3rd lvl spell with no range, and which requires a hit roll confirm) dealt 17 points of dmg, less than the average dmg of a fully evolved Magic Missile (a 1st lvl insta-casting spell with long range, and no hit rolls involved), which is 17.5.

 

Back to SR. I do not want an hypothetical Cause Light Wounds to be a match for Magic Missile , but 1d8+5 with no range compared to 5d4+5 with long range (and multiple hits) should cause this reaction (or this ) to anyone trying to balance the overall spell system. Am I wrong?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[Salk]

I guess we could say "who cares, it's probably given for granted that by then you have to rely on Mass Cure and Heal and ignore lower lvl CW spells", fine...but why should it be so when we do managed to keep almost all other spells interesting even later on?

 

I do understand you have this mission at heart, Demi.

 

But there are limits. I'd rather not change drastically a spell only because it is balanced for most part of the game and loses its importance for the rest of it.

 

In a way it is natural to have some sort of high time for spells and forcing them to be equally useful through all the game isn't always feasible.

 

But it's your call of course.

[Kalindor]

Cure WoundsBack to SR. I do not want an hypothetical Cause Light Wounds to be a match for Magic Missile , but 1d8+5 with no range compared to 5d4+5 with long range (and multiple hits) should cause this reaction (or this ) to anyone trying to balance the overall spell system. Am I wrong?

 

I cannot recall if the cause wounds line requires a to-hit roll right now, but if they do then I see that as reason enough for them to be more damaging than Magic Missile.

[Guest waldo]

Hello, playing with this mod for the first time, lots of fun. I have some issues with it though.

 

I dislike the way summons follow me around and also the nymph/dryad thing from woodland beings spell always casts a barkskin on herself immediately when she is summoned. This wastes actions I want her to take instead and is difficult if not impossible to pre-empt.

 

Would it possible for you to give me a list of the creature ids or something, so I can use something like nearinfinity (i think) to set their scripts to none or something?

 

I think it would be a really nice touch to have a component in future that asks 'Disable all player summoned creature AI?', I would love that.

 

Also, some of the spells like ice storm while really nice looking and cool to use, are almost useless in reality because you cannot avoid hurting your own party; any chance it could be party-friendly, or if the engine could somehow allow you to see the area of effect before its cast (like aoe spells in warcraft 3 fore example, and other games). Doubt its possible, but many spells are almost always a no-go because of the party unfriendliness. I realise not all spells can nor should be that way, so I can accept it as well.

 

Many thanks for a great, balanced mod in general.

[Demivrgvs]

I dislike the way summons follow me around and also the nymph/dryad thing from woodland beings spell always casts a barkskin on herself immediately when she is summoned. This wastes actions I want her to take instead and is difficult if not impossible to pre-empt.

The "follow me" feature can be disabled using ctrl+F while the mouse cursor is over the creature. For spellcasting creatures you have the option to completely disable their AI using ctrl+D (ctrl+E enables it again).

 

Would it possible for you to give me a list of the creature ids or something, so I can use something like nearinfinity (i think) to set their scripts to none or something?

It's relatively easy:

- dvmelee.bcs handles all non spellcasting summons

- for spellcasting creatures they have custom scripts, like dvnymph.bcs, dvdjinni, dvefreet. etc.

- you can edit out the first few blocks where you see the "follow me" text

Using NI you'll find those scripts under the override folder.

 

I think it would be a really nice touch to have a component in future that asks 'Disable all player summoned creature AI?', I would love that.

I thought having the option to disable/enable them in-game was enough, but I'll think do about it.

 

Also, some of the spells like ice storm while really nice looking and cool to use, are almost useless in reality because you cannot avoid hurting your own party; any chance it could be party-friendly, or if the engine could somehow allow you to see the area of effect before its cast (like aoe spells in warcraft 3 fore example, and other games). Doubt its possible, but many spells are almost always a no-go because of the party unfriendliness. I realise not all spells can nor should be that way, so I can accept it as well.

The warcraft-like feature is not doable (I'm not even sure I'd like it) while making spells such as Fireball and Ice Storm party friendly is out of question for reasons you can probably imagine yourself.

 

Anyway, while the AI have issues with unfriendly AoE spells, players shouldn't have much imo. Protect you front line characters with items granting elemental resistance, or even better make good use of SR's Protection from 'X' element spells, which grant complete immunity from spells of the relevant element. Casting multiple Ice Storm over 1-2 allies protected by ProCold is a relatively easy and very effective combo: all enemies within such area are slowed and take dmg multiple times interrupting their actions, while your melee characters move at full speed unharmed.

 

Many thanks for a great, balanced mod in general.

That's mostly thanks to playes feedback, thus if you think there something not balanced let me know.

[Raj]

Inspired by the the ''wtf vampires are OP'' scs2 thread, is there a way to remove ability score drains? It could be a nice feature for restoration spells.

[Demivrgvs]

Lesser Restoration

Inspired by the the ''wtf vampires are OP'' scs2 thread, is there a way to remove ability score drains? It could be a nice feature for restoration spells.

I'd love to do that as per PnP, but it requires help from other mods (in this case SCS), or an eventual Creature Revisions. I could make a restoration effect cure stat drain using a "remove secondary type" opcode, but I'd need all stat drain effects to be tweaked (e.g. working via spl on hit, and with the relative secondary type).

[Raj]

Creature Revisions

 

What are you waiting for?

 

On a serious note, is it really that out of SR scope to change [vanilla] creatures' abilities in order to have modded spells deal with them? Like you did for Nishruus, or the Lesser Demon Lord within IR.

 

Edit: SR has to be installed early so SCS/Atweaks and other mods that add ability drain attacks won't be affected but that would be a first step in the right direction.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Raj

[Demivrgvs]

Creature Revisions

 

What are you waiting for?

Just to find the time for it. I'm already having trouble finding time for the ongoing projects, thus an eventual CR is really hard to imagine right now (despite both I and Ardanis would like it).

 

On a serious note, is it really that out of SR scope to change [vanilla] creatures' abilities in order to have modded spells deal with them? Like you did for Nishruus, or the Lesser Demon Lord within IR.

You have a point, and to a lesser extent we already influence creatures but almost only within spells themselves (e.g. via EFF files). There's actually a case where we already patch existing creatures: SR patches WK's Azamantes and Flaming Skulls to be immune to Incendiary cloud (I don't remember right now, but I think we did it at players request because vanilla's AI was crippling them using this spell).

 

Long story short, you're partially right, but a similar component would be hard to implement and maintain, even more so when it comes to mod added abilities and creatures. I'll think about it, but I wouldn't bet on it being part of SR V4.

 

I think David doesn't want CON drain to be curable, else he could have just used 'disease' opcode, but if he wants to make it curable while keeping the non-disease feature (which makes sense, technically it's not a disease), and he adds a custom secondaty type to it, I'll gladly make (Lesser) Restoration cure it.

[Guest guest]

Hey, just wanted to ask if the spell death ward protects summons from being dispelled by death spell? That would be a nice feature, if it's not in already. SCSII is very efficient at doing away with summons otherwise...

[Demivrgvs]

Death Ward vs Death Spell

Hey, just wanted to ask if the spell death ward protects summons from being dispelled by death spell? That would be a nice feature, if it's not in already. SCSII is very efficient at doing away with summons otherwise...

Death ward doesn't protect your summons from Death Spell because the latter isn't actually killing those creature, it's simply "removing them from game" (In PnP terms it is banishing them - in fact PnP Death Spell doesn't do a thing to summons). In theory I'd be favourable to implement your suggestion (though with a small conceptual change - see below), but I fear it may cause some issues with SCS AI, which is unable to detect such immunity and would waste Death Spell on protected creatures. On a side note, David was against allowing summons a save, thus he may be equally against this.

 

Now, just for the sake of information:

- Death Spell will be replaced by Banishment within SR V4

- I'll probably add Dimensional Anchor spell, which may indeed grant protection from Banishment if we agree on implementing this feature

[phordicus]

Meant to suggest this a long time ago.

 

We've made Negative Plane Protection protect from all undead special attacks (except mummy disease and ghast stench) like shadow's STR drain and ghoul's paralyze. We had to alter their attack items and do some CastSpellOnHit stuff but that's certainly within the parameters of IR+SR.

[SixOfSpades]

We've made Negative Plane Protection protect from all undead special attacks (except mummy disease and ghast stench) like shadow's STR drain and ghoul's paralyze.

Actually, I would suggest that those immunities would be better placed in the natural strengths of the Undead Hunter, rather than NPP. Undead Hunters are already nearly completely eclipsed by any NPP item (some of which are laughably easy to attain), so granting that kit some relatively rare immunities gives the UD some much-needed appeal.

[Demivrgvs]

Negative Plane Protection

We've made Negative Plane Protection protect from all undead special attacks (except mummy disease and ghast stench) like shadow's STR drain and ghoul's paralyze. We had to alter their attack items and do some CastSpellOnHit stuff but that's certainly within the parameters of IR+SR.

The paste tense you used is kinda misleading, I actually didn't do that!

 

The suggestion has its merit but:

- most undead attacks aren't classified as "negative energy attack"

- granting too many immunities with this spell could ruin the balance of undead encounters (David actually tried to do the opposite by adding new attacks to which players have almost no counter)

 

One thing I do suggested back then but was discarded (I don't remember why) is to make it really grant protection from "negative energy" attacks such as Chill Touch, Cause Wound spells, Skull Trap, Unholy Blight, etc.

 

We've made Negative Plane Protection protect from all undead special attacks (except mummy disease and ghast stench) like shadow's STR drain and ghoul's paralyze.

Actually, I would suggest that those immunities would be better placed in the natural strengths of the Undead Hunter, rather than NPP. Undead Hunters are already nearly completely eclipsed by any NPP item (some of which are laughably easy to attain), so granting that kit some relatively rare immunities gives the UD some much-needed appeal.

I partially agree that the current Undead Hunter seems outclassed even by an Inquisitor (immunity to vampire's dominating gaze) as soos as you find a NPP item, but the former doesn't need such item, allowing him to equip something else, and possibly better. Now, there's nothing better than Mace of Disruption to fight undead creatures but Undead Hunters can for example use Daystar, which pratically is a MoD without NPP (and better than MoD in all other circumstances). Anyway, you have a point, it's something I'll deal with when I get to actively work on paladin's kits within KR.

[Guest guest]

Why has the elemental summon duration been reduced to 1 turn + 1 round/level. These now only last for 2-3 mins, which is pretty bad. Are they really so beefed up now that they require this to counterbalance them?

 

It would be nice to have some summons that acutally last a while, animate dead is good but if you're roleplaying you're not going to get Aerie to cast this, imo, nor any good protagonist. The only option is then to have a druid with shambling mount which is late in the game. Are there some long lasting (1 turn/level, or preferably 8 hours) spells I seem to have missed, that could be used by a good party? Invisible stalker is the only other that comes to mind.

 

Point is, I would like 1 turn/level elementals for the neutral/good roleplaying option, and am eager to hear why this was changed?