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Friend level 1 : I suggest to forbidd stacking (too cheap way for discount and it doesn't make cense to reach 25 value with a level one spell).
It's not supposed to be stackable. I already told Demi about it and he will fix it.
Yep sorry, I thought I already fixed that! I'll do it right away to avoid forgetting it again.

 

I also really do think that spell deflection/turning should absorb spell like chaos, Grander malediction, greater command, despair, silence, horror....

 

Theses sort of spell cannot be considered like area spell but more like "multiple centered directly upon wizard spells" and should obvisouly be absorbed.

 

What do you think about it ?

There was a plan for V4 to "merge" Spell Deflection and Spell Turning (they never works anyway within this game because of how the AI detects/reacts to it and the whole spell removing system which doesn't exist in PnP), turning them into a NWN-like spell protections which works vs AOE effects too. It is supposed to be an optional component, and I think Ardanis already coded and tested it, I just cannot find the whole discussion behind it anymore (SR's forum has a become huge and some topics are really massive :) ).
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While reading a most amusing LP (http://www.shsforums...shtars-journal/), I saw this:

TMZOq.jpg

I believe SR is installed, mainly because the worthless Know Alignment is replaced by the awesome Know Opponent, and if it is - should it not be "Divine" in both instances ("header" and title)?

You can easily notice the long description doesn't belong to SR though, because I don't use that format. If SR is installed a mod probably ovewrote SR's spell, or SR's description.
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Oh yeah that's true. I'm also inclined to believe that another mod has fiddled with the spells - that would explain why the formatting is not SR-esque (lots of spheres and schools etc). I'm on my work laptop so couldn't check how it should look (because, let's face it, SR is the standard to measure against;)). Thnx!

Edited by Dakk
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I'll only add small feedbacks from time to time :)

 

Summon shadow. I tested it at level 9 and I was disapointed. 3 shadows on a level 5 party doing nothing at all but waiting to be killed.

On a fighter with 3 AC, those 3 shadows took about 5mn to kill him, maybe I got unlucky ?

 

Compared to monster summoning 3 or spider spawn, summon shadow seems very weak to me.

Too bad, it is the only level 5 necromancer spell. I think I would prefer only one summon but stronger. In that regard, I really like summon death knight at level 7

 

As others, I agree that gnolls are useless. On this level, spider spawns are a lot better, it is not even comparable.

Dimension door, can't see why I would memorize it, basically useless and at this level, there are a lot of very interesting spells.

To be honest, even as a level 1 spell, wouldn't change my mind :)

 

Color spray : one of my new favorite level 1 spell, very powerful, but need to be in close range and often miss target :)

 

True strike : I'm trying to make a good use of this one, scripting mages to cast it and attack after, but it is very difficult to use since it expires very quickly. Good combo with melf meteor through.

 

Larloch : previously useless, now it's good. 10 life drain is nice and my necromancers abuse it now. But now, Vampiric touch seems bad at low levels.

On a level 9 necromancer, it's about 8 for larcoch, and 12 for vampiric. Considering larloch is level 1 and cast very quickly and at range, I don't see the point to use vampiric touch below its maximal potential.

 

More tomorrow :)

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I'll only add small feedbacks from time to time :)

Youre welcome.

 

Summon shadow. I tested it at level 9 and I was disapointed. 3 shadows on a level 5 party doing nothing at all but waiting to be killed.

On a fighter with 3 AC, those 3 shadows took about 5mn to kill him, maybe I got unlucky ?

 

Compared to monster summoning 3 or spider spawn, summon shadow seems very weak to me.

Too bad, it is the only level 5 necromancer spell. I think I would prefer only one summon but stronger. In that regard, I really like summon death knight at level 7

Mmm, shadows/wraiths seemed pretty solid back then. They should peform well as "tanks" because of 50% dmg reduction and huge amount of resistances/immunities (they are both undead and incorporeal). I may have overstimated them a little, but do they really look bad compared to MSIII's ogres or ASII's leopards? Mmm...

 

As others, I agree that gnolls are useless. On this level, spider spawns are a lot better, it is not even comparable.
Ok, point taken. Gnolls are not worth a 4th lvl spell. Iìll take this in mind for V4. ;)

 

Dimension door, can't see why I would memorize it, basically useless and at this level, there are a lot of very interesting spells.

To be honest, even as a level 1 spell, wouldn't change my mind :)

Well, being able to completely avoid a Horrid Wilting by quickly DD away with a 1st or 2nd lvl spell woulnd' be bad at all imo, would it?

 

Color spray : one of my new favorite level 1 spell, very powerful, but need to be in close range and often miss target :)
There's very little of me in this, as it's mostly as its old AD&D version was, before getting nerfed to the point of being uselss. :(

 

True strike : I'm trying to make a good use of this one, scripting mages to cast it and attack after, but it is very difficult to use since it expires very quickly. Good combo with melf meteor through.
You're not the first to say that this spell has limited potential outside few great combos (e.g. Harm + TS for a cleric/mage). It's already better than in PnP, but probably not enough...I'll think about it.

 

Larloch : previously useless, now it's good. 10 life drain is nice and my necromancers abuse it now. But now, Vampiric touch seems bad at low levels.

On a level 9 necromancer, it's about 8 for larcoch, and 12 for vampiric. Considering larloch is level 1 and cast very quickly and at range, I don't see the point to use vampiric touch below its maximal potential.

Good point. We could probably make VT's dmg/drain effect increase at a faster rate (2hp/lvl) and cap at a lower lvl (e.g. 15th). I have to keep VT's early/mid game dmg potential under control though, because it may be a close range spell but it doesn't allow any save and uses the most effective source of dmg (magic).

 

More tomorrow :)
Well, tomorrow morning I'll go in Toscana for a couple of days, but I look forward to more feedback as soon as I get back! ;)
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Mmm, shadows/wraiths seemed pretty solid back then. They should peform well as "tanks" because of 50% dmg reduction and huge amount of resistances/immunities (they are both undead and incorporeal). I may have overstimated them a little, but do they really look bad compared to MSIII's ogres or ASII's leopards? Mmm...

Tanks are good vs AI. Players will just ignore them.

All my tests are done within my mod, so it is enemy that use spells on me. I prefer dangerous summon that I must disable quickly than harmless tanks that I can avoid freely.

Currently, a level 9 necromancer casting 2 summon shadow (so 6 shadows) is something player can almost ignore. Ogres don't have better thac0 but they hit like a truck with their 19 strength.

 

Good point. We could probably make VT's dmg/drain effect increase at a faster rate (2hp/lvl) and cap at a lower lvl (e.g. 15th). I have to keep VT's early/mid game dmg potential under control though, because it may be a close range spell but it doesn't allow any save and uses the most effective source of dmg (magic).

Larloch doesn't allow any save either and is still faster and range spell.

Again, for a necromancer, what's the point to choose vampric touch over skull trap ? Skull trap does more damage and is area of effect :)

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Summon Shadows

Tanks are good vs AI. Players will just ignore them.

All my tests are done within my mod, so it is enemy that use spells on me. I prefer dangerous summon that I must disable quickly than harmless tanks that I can avoid freely.

Currently, a level 9 necromancer casting 2 summon shadow (so 6 shadows) is something player can almost ignore. Ogres don't have better thac0 but they hit like a truck with their 19 strength.

Ah ok, point taken then. Against players it's probably better a "glass cannon" type of summon. The only threat they pose is their STR drain, but I guess only wraith's level drain is considered a real issue, especially considering the save vs chilling touch is quite easy to make for players (then again, I purposedly made those saves quite easy because I feared more the abuse of STR/lvl drain vs AI poor saves). If we do agree about improving shadows than I think their chilling touch is pretty much the only aspect that can be buffed.

 

Vampiric Touch

Larloch doesn't allow any save either and is still faster and range spell.
As I said, I'm all for making VT grow bigger faster. After that, the other difference could be that LMD's increased max hp should be less and quicker to fade. Multiple hp increase (note: max hp, not normal heal) shouldn't stack, thus the necromancer would surely look forward to increase his max hp by 30 (which for a mage means almost doubling his base hp) for a long time instead of by 10 for a short time, wouldn't he?

 

Again, for a necromancer, what's the point to choose vampric touch over skull trap ? Skull trap does more damage and is area of effect :)
Well, leaving aside Skull Trap has always been a little too much effective, these two spells should serve a completely different role. VT should be memorized only once imo, and used as a mean to heal himself (almost a full heal effect for a mage) or buff his hp while also damaging the target. Damaging the target is only a part of VT (not even the most important imo), while it's Skull Trap's only purpose.

 

Btw, Skull Trap will probably be even more useful within V4 for AI controlled necromancers using undead summons, as I'm planning to make it count as negative energy damage (as per PnP) thus not affecting undead, and turning it into a sort of "party-friendly" AoE when used this way.

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Ah ok, point taken then. Against players it's probably better a "glass cannon" type of summon. The only threat they pose is their STR drain, but I guess only wraith's level drain is considered a real issue, especially considering the save vs chilling touch is quite easy to make for players (then again, I purposedly made those saves quite easy because I feared more the abuse of STR/lvl drain vs AI poor saves). If we do agree about improving shadows than I think their chilling touch is pretty much the only aspect that can be buffed.

The main problem of shadows is their low thac0 and very low damage. If they get a better chilling touch, maybe it would make a difference.

 

As I said, I'm all for making VT grow bigger faster. After that, the other difference could be that LMD's increased max hp should be less and quicker to fade. Multiple hp increase (note: max hp, not normal heal) shouldn't stack, thus the necromancer would surely look forward to increase his max hp by 30 (which for a mage means almost doubling his base hp) for a long time instead of by 10 for a short time, wouldn't he?

I didn't check if multiple larloch life drain stack and I agree it shouldn't.

Problem with VT is that it is good at high levels, but quite average/bad at low levels. Healing part of VT or LMD at low levels is minor, if mage can be hit, he will die very quickly no matter what. I see VT are an alternative level 3 spell for a necromancer. If we do agree that life drain can only occur once, damage occur every time. And I think VT should do more damage to a single target than skull trap does.

 

So, if a necromancer want to damage a whole party, he choose ST, but if there is only one target, then VT should be the way to go.

Maybe, double damage at low levels, but only half damage heal ?

 

Btw, Skull Trap will probably be even more useful within V4 for AI controlled necromancers using undead summons, as I'm planning to make it count as negative energy damage (as per PnP) thus not affecting undead, and turning it into a sort of "party-friendly" AoE when used this way.

Can't wait to see V4 then :) I was testing Arkion (level 9 necromancer), first he cast 2 summon shadow and then 3 skull traps, all summons died. I was forced to inverse both spells : 3 skull traps then summon shadows.

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Happy new year :)

 

Well, back to business. I have tested Spell thrust and Secret Word

Very small radius makes it difficult to use them efficiently

5" radius, it's melee range. So, beeing area of effect is almost useless since there is almost no chance that many casters are that closed.

And melee range is tough, and if target move a bit during cast, it will just be wasted.

 

I would have prefer a single range target spell compared to these ones.

Or a bigger radius like 10"

 

Don't forget that for each revised spell, there are 2 uses : enemies and party

I'm sure a player can use these spells, but it is very tough if not impossible for a script (likely an enemy).

Edited by aigleborgne
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Happy new year :)

Happy new year. :)

 

Well, back to business. I have tested Spell thrust and Secret Word

Very small radius makes it difficult to use them efficiently

5" radius, it's melee range. So, beeing area of effect is almost useless since there is almost no chance that many casters are that closed.

And melee range is tough, and if target move a bit during cast, it will just be wasted.

 

I would have prefer a single range target spell compared to these ones.

Or a bigger radius like 10"

Sounds like you aren't using the hotfixes, because those spells already works more or like as you wish. Secret Word is single target. Spell Thrust has a larger 15 feet radius AoE. :D

 

Btw, the old 5 feet radius AoE wasn't there to give those spells a real AoE, but only to make them bypass Improved Invisibility.

Edited by Demivrgvs
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My bad, didn't see there was hotfixes patch :)

 

Well, I am concerned by 2 spells : Spell shield (level 5) and spell shield (level 8)

2 differents spells with the same name.

 

Since the level 8 spell is an improved globe of invulnerability, I would have called it "Major Globe of Invulnerability"

 

 

 

Sounds like you aren't using the hotfixes, because those spells already works more or like as you wish. Secret Word is single target. Spell Thrust has a larger 15 feet radius AoE. :D

 

Btw, the old 5 feet radius AoE wasn't there to give those spells a real AoE, but only to make them bypass Improved Invisibility.

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My bad, didn't see there was hotfixes patch :)

 

Well, I am concerned by 2 spells : Spell shield (level 5) and spell shield (level 8)

2 differents spells with the same name.

 

Since the level 8 spell is an improved globe of invulnerability, I would have called it "Major Globe of Invulnerability"

The 5th lvl one was disabled back then because it was bugged. I suggested a solution to finally fix it a year ago, and Ardanis coded it right away, but until SR V4 only the most recent SCS version has implemented such tweak. :)

 

The 8th lvl one will indeed be renamed into Greater Globe of Invulnerability for SR V4. The original 5th lvl Spell Shield will be restored instead.

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