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[Shaitan]

I concur that haste has to be nerfed. It's too good.

 

I don't like Insect Plague to be changed, I'm glad for it as it is.

[polytope]

I think there's also a particularly huge issue that needs to be mentioned: haste opcode causes all repeating effects to take place twice as fast, which can lead to some serious problems like Blade Barrier (or any aura-like effect) triggering twice as much per round. That can be almost game-breaking depending on which repeating EFFs are affected imo. The other side effect of this is the one you mentioned about regenerating and poison effects. The latter almost never affected my games, but the former can be actually quite OP if applied on chars with very high regeneration rate (e.g. even 7th lvl Regeneration spell becomes a monster if coupled with haste).

　

Now, long story short I'll just list what I was going to suggest and why:

- first of all, I thought about getting rid of the hardcoded haste/slow opcodes. I hope this doesn't clash with Detecable Spell system because it's pretty much mandatory for everything else

- with a custom sec type we could finally make Haste and Slow properly counter each other

- Haste should grant a lower movement rate bonus compared to improved haste imo (e.g. if Improve Haste remains +100% then Haste could grant +50%).

- if possible I'd like Haste and Slow spells to affect recipient's attack speed factor

- Slow should affect non-warriors characters too (chars with 1 apr are unaffected by the current Slow spell)

- Haste and Slow spells should not affect repeating EFFs, regeneration rate and poison hp loss rate

 

SR already changes Blade Barrier and Insect Plague to work through multiple 146 sub-spells, so haste won't affect them, no? I suppose the same could be done for the Regeneration spell, using multiple delayed instances of opcode 17 in place of the regular opcode 98.

 

In the case of "natural" regeneration and poison, I don't think a doubled rate is unbalancing or unrealistic because (1) the latter adds a "risk" to haste, normally an excellent spell (2) natural or equipped-item-regeneration is usually pretty slow (3) haste is mentioned to speed up your metabolism, presumably including rates of both healing and disease.

 

Slow is actually a considerable debuff for characters with only 1 apr, because they're probably spellcasters and it doubles the casting time of any spell.

 

Also, using any opcode besides 16 for haste won't correctly set STATE_HASTED for AI purposes, same problem I run into when trying to change the overpowered blindness effect.

Edited January 20, 2012 by polytope

[aigleborgne]

I meant AI, not IA (in french, AI become IA)

I have tested slow a lot while modding and I assure you it is worst for caster than fighters. Slow movement speed + double casting time make a spellcaster very fragile.

I have also abused haste spell on a conjurer : Cythandria. She cast about 4-5 summons spells and then she cast haste, deadly !!

 

About Insect Plague feedback, I like it a lot.

I gave it to Amarande (archdruid in cloakwood) and this spell, alone, gives him an edge over the battle.

Now, a big problem of divine spellcasters is their lack of magic protection.

Druid have almost nothing to protect them from spells, so they can easily be interrupted by spells.

 

See a druid cast insect plague? you have a full round to interrupt him!

It's less easy when you fight a full group, but when it is a lone caster, it's rather easy.

 

To prevent this, I made it an avenger and improved invisibility is a life saver (as for many spellcasters too)

 

I should see what TobEx can do about this. I've installed new spellcasting interrupt system (and no interrupt on 0 damage) but didn't test it yet.

[Dakk]

I meant AI, not IA (in french, AI become IA)

[OT] Ah of course, like my NATO medal says OTAN (and "Au service de la paix et de la liberte") on the inverse side [/OT]

 

And yes, divine spellcasters lack of protection is their undoing when they are solo, or few in numbers. DavidW has even acknowledged that in SCS(2) discussions, and said that it might be warranted to use the component of SCS that allows them to come fully prebuffed if you feel they lack staying power.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dakk

[Demivrgvs]

Slow & Haste

Also, using any opcode besides 16 for haste won't correctly set STATE_HASTED for AI purposes, same problem I run into when trying to change the overpowered blindness effect.

Yeah, I do feared that not using the original opcode could be a problem, but at the same time it would be the best way to do a "clean job".

 

Regarding the repeating EFFs issue, as far as I remember even if Blade Barrier works through multiple 146 sub-spells you still get 2x rate. I'll try to find some time to test it.

 

Slow is actually a considerable debuff for characters with only 1 apr, because they're probably spellcasters and it doubles the casting time of any spell.

I have tested slow a lot while modding and I assure you it is worst for caster than fighters. Slow movement speed + double casting time make a spellcaster very fragile.

Ehh? Are you guys sure? I was almost sure neither haste nor slow opcodes had any effect on spellcasting (only the casting glow animation was affected). Sounds like I have to test it again, especially considering both spells have this line "Spellcasting and spell effects are not affected" in their description!

 

Insect Plague

It seems like most of you agree the spell itself is quite devastating when it is not interrupted. My point is that such weakness is necessary because else this very powerful omni-purpose spell (it can cause fear, it weakens opponent's AC/thac0, it can completely disable spellcasters and it damages everyone in a huge friendly AoE!) would also be fast to cast and thus really too good! I know priests cannot protect themselves as good as mages, but making their spells too fast to counter that isn't the right solution imo. See below.

 

Druid have almost nothing to protect them from spells, so they can easily be interrupted by spells.

 

See a druid cast insect plague? you have a full round to interrupt him!

It's less easy when you fight a full group, but when it is a lone caster, it's rather easy.

As Dakk says this is a known "issue", but even looking into each and every PnP book I found very few ways to improve their anti-magic defense.

 

To prevent this, I made it an avenger and improved invisibility is a life saver (as for many spellcasters too)

Yeah, but Improved Invisibility really doesn't suit druids, and we cannot turn avery druid in the game into an Avenger.

 

I should see what TobEx can do about this. I've installed new spellcasting interrupt system (and no interrupt on 0 damage) but didn't test it yet.

Can you please report your tests to us? You really don't know how much hope I have in that tweak! If it works as intended it should finally allow priests to perform their role even wthout PfMW-like buffs thanks to their heavy armors and hp.

[aigleborgne]

Ehh? Are you guys sure? I was almost sure neither haste nor slow opcodes had any effect on spellcasting (only the casting glow animation was affected). Sounds like I have to test it again, especially considering both spells have this line "Spellcasting and spell effects are not affected" in their description!

Well, in my game, it is clearly written : "Spellcasting time is doubled" for slow. And I have tested it, it works well

 

Yeah, but Improved Invisibility really doesn't suit druids, and we cannot turn avery druid in the game into an Avenger.

Hopefully, there are not too many druids. Druids have high AC, and thus, even with Iron skin, they drop quite easily. This is why improved invisibility is so good.

But it is a sad conclusion : most spellcasters rely on on this effect to stay alive. Players just have to be ready to cancel invisibility.

 

Can you please report your tests to us? You really don't know how much hope I have in that tweak! If it works as intended it should finally allow priests to perform their role even wthout PfMW-like buffs thanks to their heavy armors and hp.

I will, but it is difficult to test it properly !

 

Oh and I was wondering if Fire trap is not a bit overpowered ? A level 2 area of effect spell that doesn't harm friends...

In my tests, I have moved it high on priority list, it's better than most level 3 spells.

It was very welcome for druid to have good level 2 spells but I guess it's a little too good ?

[Dakk]

Oh and I was wondering if Fire trap is not a bit overpowered ? A level 2 area of effect spell that doesn't harm friends...

In my tests, I have moved it high on priority list, it's better than most level 3 spells.

It was very welcome for druid to have good level 2 spells but I guess it's a little too good ?

Casting time 1 round should balance it (I haven't had much experience with it admittedly)? Do you use it in the defensive sense ("trap") or basically as a fireball?

[polytope]

Slow & Haste

Also, using any opcode besides 16 for haste won't correctly set STATE_HASTED for AI purposes, same problem I run into when trying to change the overpowered blindness effect.

Yeah, I do feared that not using the original opcode could be a problem, but at the same time it would be the best way to do a "clean job".

 

Regarding the repeating EFFs issue, as far as I remember even if Blade Barrier works through multiple 146 sub-spells you still get 2x rate. I'll try to find some time to test it.

Effects like the tick of True Sight and Melf's Acid Arrow aren't doubled by haste, because it uses a genuine timer rather than a per-round basis. I believe haste cuts the combat round in half, which you can check by setting an auto-pause option for end of round (which triggers every 3 seconds in hasted combat, rather than 6, if using default framerate). Also inspite of the hardcoded 5 attacks per round cap a creature can have up to 6 apr under regular haste (provided they had 5 before casting).

 

The balance issue of the Regeneration + Haste can certainly be solved with multiple delayed 17's. Improved Haste is the real game-breaker, and comes with it's own hardcoded stat for AI purposes - possibly it could be balanced with a shorter duration or even a mild damage penalty (you can use the Kai opcode with a negative value to avoid wraparound bugs) to reflect that striking twice as frequently necessarily means striking less accurately and forcefully.

[aigleborgne]

I don't use it directly but I'm modding for BG1, so a few druids use it, as a fireball then.

Amarande (level 13 druid) use it and it is devastating.

 

Well, my party didn't fight back so it is highly probable that I could interrupt a few cast

 

Casting time 1 round should balance it (I haven't had much experience with it admittedly)? Do you use it in the defensive sense ("trap") or basically as a fireball?

[aigleborgne]

Is it really? Improved haste is only efficient on a fighter, and it is a single target spell.

That effect can be dispelled, or its target disable...

 

It's also a level 6 spell...

One level 3 haste is, to me, more efficient than a single improved haste (unless playing a solo F/M)

 

Improved Haste is the real game-breaker, and comes with it's own hardcoded stat for AI purposes - possibly it could be balanced with a shorter duration or even a mild damage penalty (you can use the Kai opcode with a negative value to avoid wraparound bugs) to reflect that striking twice as frequently necessarily means striking less accurately and forcefully.

[polytope]

Is it really? Improved haste is only efficient on a fighter, and it is a single target spell.

That effect can be dispelled, or its target disable...

 

It's also a level 6 spell...

One level 3 haste is, to me, more efficient than a single improved haste (unless playing a solo F/M)

 

I think about it this way; level 13+ fighters probably have 3.5 apr (with 2 weapon fighting), assuming you have 3 such fighters in your party (or equivalent) that's 10.5 apr in total (okay, your cleric and thief can contribute in melee, but maybe you only have 2 fighters, or not all of them are using 2 weapon style, so let's assume it balances out).

 

Casting Haste raises each fighters apr to 4 (as it's always a whole number with vanilla haste) or 12 in total, a net increase of 1.5 apr.

 

Casting Improved Haste on one fighter raises apr to 7, a net increase of 3.5 apr... That alone is more than twice as useful as hasting all your fighters in terms of damage (discounting movement rate and attack speed factor for the moment, though they are relevant in many fights). However, regular Haste is not stackable, whereas you can IH each of your fighters to get 21 apr in total, a net increase of 10.5 apr.

 

I suspect Improved Haste and Whirlwind are the main reason so many ToB creatures have way more hp than they should, per 2nd ed.

Edited January 25, 2012 by polytope

[aigleborgne]

You got a point here. Improved haste is very efficient a on group with many fighters that dual wield.

I don't know current duration of Improved haste but maybe 1 round / 3 level would be do it.

It would be : 4 round at level 12 up to 6 round at level 18

 

Is it really? Improved haste is only efficient on a fighter, and it is a single target spell.

That effect can be dispelled, or its target disable...

 

It's also a level 6 spell...

One level 3 haste is, to me, more efficient than a single improved haste (unless playing a solo F/M)

 

I think about it this way; level 13+ fighters probably have 3.5 apr (with 2 weapon fighting), assuming you have 3 such fighters in your party (or equivalent) that's 10.5 apr in total (okay, your cleric and thief can contribute in melee, but maybe you only have 2 fighters, or not all of them are using 2 weapon style, so let's assume it balances out).

 

Casting Haste raises each fighters apr to 4 (as it's always a whole number with vanilla haste) or 12 in total, a net increase of 1.5 apr.

 

Casting Improved Haste on one fighter raises apr to 7, a net increase of 3.5 apr... That alone is more than twice as useful as hasting all your fighters in terms of damage (discounting movement rate and attack speed factor for the moment, though they are relevant in many fights). However, regular Haste is not stackable, whereas you can IH each of your fighters to get 21 apr in total, a net increase of 10.5 apr.

 

I suspect Improved Haste and Whirlwind are the main reason so many ToB creatures have way more hp than they should, per 2nd ed.

[Demivrgvs]

Haste & Improved Haste

Polytope's point is indeed valid (IH has much more potential if cast on multiple fighters), but I actually think even a single IH on a dual-wielder fighter can be hugely more effective than Haste on multiple fighters. First of all, you're going to cast IH on your best fighter, and granting 2x apr to the warrior wielding your best weapon/equipment/stats is exponentially more effective than +1apr to multiple characters imo (e.g. if such "champion" had 4 apr you would need at least 4 fighters of identical power level to reach the same effectiveness with a normal Haste, and you'd be using four chars to achieve what you could have done with only one, leaving the other three to different duties!).

 

On top of that, IH lasts twice as much as Haste and doesn't cause fatigue! Long story short, if used on a dual wielder the current Improved Haste pratically is Greater Whirlwind Attack on steroids imo (lasts 20 times more, improves AC/THAC0, boosts regeneration, allows super fast movements).

 

As you might have guessed I do think IH is kinda OP when cast on certain characters, but at the same time it's very lame when cast on non-warriors! It's ridiculous that casting a 6th lvl IH on an rogue/priest gives you +1 apr to a single character when the 3rd lvl Haste would have given you +1 apr to the whole party!

 

So, what I already planned to suggest is to make Improved Haste grant +2 apr instead of 2x, evening its effectiveness on all characters (and all weapon styles, as it would also be a more fair solution to balance 2handers and dual wielders).

 

Summarizing what I wanted to suggest, 3rd lvl Haste:

* +1 apr, AC, THAC0, and speed factor (the latter would be a new entry)

* if possible something like +50% movement rate instead of th current +100%

* last 10 rounds

* whole party, but 5 rounds fatigue after it (note that SR's fatigue also affect spellcaster's casting speed factor)

 

6th lvl Improved Haste:

* +2 apr (finally affecting non-warriors), AC, THAC0, and speed factor

* +100% movement rate

* last up to 20 rounds

* single target, but no fatigue after it

[Dakk]

Summarizing what I wanted to suggest, 3rd lvl Haste:

* +1 apr, AC, THAC0, and speed factor (the latter would be a new entry)

* if possible something like +50% movement rate instead of th current +100%

* last 10 rounds

* whole party, but 5 rounds fatigue after it (note that SR's fatigue also affect spellcaster's casting speed factor)

 

6th lvl Improved Haste:

* +2 apr (finally affecting non-warriors), AC, THAC0, and speed factor

* +100% movement rate

* last up to 20 rounds

* single target, but no fatigue after it

Very clean

[aigleborgne]

I like these changes a lot. This would make a use for casters that like to summon weapon (was thinking of black blade of disaster for example)

 

Haste & Improved Haste

Polytope's point is indeed valid (IH has much more potential if cast on multiple fighters), but I actually think even a single IH on a dual-wielder fighter can be hugely more effective than Haste on multiple fighters. First of all, you're going to cast IH on your best fighter, and granting 2x apr to the warrior wielding your best weapon/equipment/stats is exponentially more effective than +1apr to multiple characters imo (e.g. if such "champion" had 4 apr you would need at least 4 fighters of identical power level to reach the same effectiveness with a normal Haste, and you'd be using four chars to achieve what you could have done with only one, leaving the other three to different duties!).

 

On top of that, IH lasts twice as much as Haste and doesn't cause fatigue! Long story short, if used on a dual wielder the current Improved Haste pratically is Greater Whirlwind Attack on steroids imo (lasts 20 times more, improves AC/THAC0, boosts regeneration, allows super fast movements).

 

As you might have guessed I do think IH is kinda OP when cast on certain characters, but at the same time it's very lame when cast on non-warriors! It's ridiculous that casting a 6th lvl IH on an rogue/priest gives you +1 apr to a single character when the 3rd lvl Haste would have given you +1 apr to the whole party!

 

So, what I already planned to suggest is to make Improved Haste grant +2 apr instead of 2x, evening its effectiveness on all characters (and all weapon styles, as it would also be a more fair solution to balance 2handers and dual wielders).

 

Summarizing what I wanted to suggest, 3rd lvl Haste:

* +1 apr, AC, THAC0, and speed factor (the latter would be a new entry)

* if possible something like +50% movement rate instead of th current +100%

* last 10 rounds

* whole party, but 5 rounds fatigue after it (note that SR's fatigue also affect spellcaster's casting speed factor)

 

6th lvl Improved Haste:

* +2 apr (finally affecting non-warriors), AC, THAC0, and speed factor

* +100% movement rate

* last up to 20 rounds

* single target, but no fatigue after it