Feedback

[Guest eros]

If you edit them out they work like in vanilla (Sunray is almost unchanged, but False Dawn was completly different), and are available to clerics. If you want their SR's version but still want your cleric to use them you have to edit your cleric spellbook with shadowkeeper without commenting them out on install. Let me know if it's not clear.

 

 

Thankyou, yes, that is very clear. I think i will use shadowkeeper then, as SR's changes usually seem like good ones

 

Hope you never get bored with modding, your work (indeed everyone's work here) is much appreciated.

[Duckfeet]

Grease (movement rate set to 1) and Entangle (movement rate set to 50%) slow everyone in the area with no save, while a save is allowed to avoid slip/entangle effects. Ice Storm and Acid Fog have no save at all, not even to halve the damage. V4's Web will have a similar effect if we replace the overpowered hold effect with an entangle-like one.

 

Thanks.

 

What's the current hold duration of Web?

[Duckfeet]

I'm going to hate myself for saying this, because I love smashing my opponents with the current version of the spell, but I suspect that if you think Web is currently overpowered, then Grease must be also overpowered.

 

My mage loadout uses almost all Grease spells in level 1. With the Ring of Wizardry early in BG1 (double number of level 1 spells) it's just massive pwnage:

 

- slow with no save

- every round save or be knocked unconscious (+ spell failure)

- long duration persistent aoe

- stackable

- small area (can target close to self + run around it and make enemies cross it multiple times)

- works on enemies with any HD

- fast casting speed

- SCS mages don't seem to think to use this against me, while I can spam them to death with it.

 

Holy crap, there's no downside. I think it's even better than Web currently. It totally wins vs Sleep.

 

But the thing to be careful about is not to nerf the spell too much... typically for mods most people who post feedback are veteran players.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Duckfeet

[Demivrgvs]

Grease

I'm going to hate myself for saying this, because I love smashing my opponents with the current version of the spell, but I suspect that if you think Web is currently overpowered, then Grease must be also overpowered.

 

...

I'm glad to have some more feedback for BG1. Let's see...I think the things we may work on are:

1) save

2) casting speed

3) "stackability"

 

1) The "problem" here is that I indeed need to slightly refine the whole system (as some players like Six correctly noticed) because I made all spells of a certain level use the same saves (e.g. lvl 1 with no penalty, lvl 2 with -1 penalty, ...) but I should instead take into account more things (e.g. has the spell secondary effects? is it a save-or-else spell, or a save for half damage? and so on).

 

Long story short, Grease had a +2 bonus to targets' saves in vanilla, and I removed it in V1 because else the spell was really useless, but with time I refined the spell quite much and I think restoring such bonus might be fine. As you noticed the smaller AoE actually makes it more effective, and the slow effect (no save) make sure opponents have to stick in it at least for some time instead of runnnig at full speed through it (which could actually cause the targets to walk over it without having to make a single save).

 

2) I think that 1) should be enough to balance the spell, but if most of you think it's not we may raise the casting speed from 1 to 5 like most persistent-AoE spells (Entangle, Web, ...). The casting speed is somewhat "necessary" imo to effectively use such a small AoE (10' feet), but I may be wrong.

 

3) multiple Grease spells, just like multiple Web spells is quite a problem in terms of balance yes...but when I prosed to block it a lot of players were against it because blocking it "made no sense", which is kinda true because I think two Web spells simply make the area even more "webbed".

Edited February 9, 2010 by Demivrgvs

[Duckfeet]

IMHO the only thing that makes it OP is the KO effect, which really shouldn't have any effect on stationary targets like casters and archers. One of my favourite tactics is to hit groups of casters with this thing after they've started casting, which fizzles all their spells en-masse if they fail their save.

 

But I like the casting speed of 1. It's important for an antimobility spell to be able to be tossed out quickly, otherwise it's totally useless because the enemy would be smashing your face in by the time it goes off.

 

Is there any way to increase the slow effect, or is "set move to 1" the absolute minimum it can do?

 

I think you could remove the KO, and increase the AoE while (optionally) improving the slow effect, which should still offer no save. This would make it a vital spell in the arsenal but no longer a one-spell battle-winner.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Duckfeet

[yarpen]

But then what are differences between Grease and Slow spell?

[Duckfeet]

But then what are differences between Grease and Slow spell?

 

Grease has no effect on AC, attack speed, casting speed, saves.

 

EDIT: Also, Grease is not party friendly, and is limited in area, whereas a target hit with Slow is debuffed for 1 turn no matter where he goes.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Duckfeet

[Duckfeet]

After more playtesting (without that overpowered pseudodragon which can fly through the grease to kick ass) I think replacing the KO with entangle effect and increasing the area will do fine.

[Demivrgvs]

After more playtesting (without that overpowered pseudodragon which can fly through the grease to kick ass) I think replacing the KO with entangle effect and increasing the area will do fine.

Well, that familiar is overpowered per se in BG1, but if you exploit it even more with a multiple Grease you surely end up with a broken system yes.

 

Anyway...replacing slip with entangle? Since when a layer of grease can entangle? In 3rd edition PnP, IWD and NWN it works just like I made it, but I do agree I have to reduce the effectiveness of the KO secondary effect.

 

In theory I should also increase its casting speed because 1 is really too fast for a stationary-AoE spell, but I'm not sure about this because this spell probably needs to be cast fast enough to be in place before the enemy approaches the mage.

 

What about reducing the duration from 1 turn to 5 rounds?

 

P.S Vanilla's Ring of Wizardry is also part of the issue, because you shouldn't be able to memorize 6-8 Grease!

[Duckfeet]

My rationale is based on the understanding that the role of Grease should be more antimobility rather than disabling. Right now it's awesome at disabling (cast it directly at the opponent, everyone who fails a save is KO'ed immediately) and mediocre at antimobility (it's so small that opponents tend to be able to run across it completely before the round-tick checks for application of any effects). We want it to be not so disabling but better at antimobility. That's why I suggested Entangle, basically a "set movement rate to 0" such that there are no AC effects from being KO, and still can cast spells and use ranged weapons. But you're right that it makes no sense from a realism perspective.

 

What about reducing the duration from 1 turn to 5 rounds?

 

Exactly! This works... and increase the radius. Keep the KO chance. So, it's now half as effective at disabling, but if you double the radius it's potentially twice as effective at antimobility, which cancels out the half duration.

 

EDIT: By the way, I just noticed that the level 5 divine spell "greater command" is very similar to the current Grease, except it's a bit bigger, saves at -4, and it's not stationary AoE (so if they wake up, they stay up!) and no movement rate effect. Dunno about the balance at this point since Grease is still under review. But it looks a bit weak to me.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Duckfeet

[Dakk]

Anyway...replacing slip with entangle? Since when a layer of grease can entangle? In 3rd edition PnP, IWD and NWN it works just like I made it, but I do agree I have to reduce the effectiveness of the KO secondary effect.

My rationale is based on the understanding that the role of Grease should be more antimobility rather than disabling. Right now it's awesome at disabling (cast it directly at the opponent, everyone who fails a save is KO'ed immediately) and mediocre at antimobility (it's so small that opponents tend to be able to run across it completely before the round-tick checks for application of any effects). We want it to be not so disabling but better at antimobility. That's why I suggested Entangle, basically a "set movement rate to 0" such that there are no AC effects from being KO, and still can cast spells and use ranged weapons. But you're right that it makes no sense from a realism perspective.

 

Of course "grease" could have an "entangle" effect. Walk barefoot on a greased floor, or with smooth shoes on ice - if and when you fall you are effectively "entangled" as you struggle to get up. Or for that matter, you could be stuck in really sticky mud...

[Demivrgvs]

Grease

What about reducing the duration from 1 turn to 5 rounds?

Exactly! This works... and increase the radius. Keep the KO chance. So, it's now half as effective at disabling, but if you double the radius it's potentially twice as effective at antimobility, which cancels out the half duration.

Well, it's not so simple. Halving the duration doesn't mean the "KO" effect is half as effective, and increasing the AoE surely doesn't mean making it twice as effective. A bigger AoE in particular isn't necessary an advantage for un-friendly spells, actually a smaller AoE for those spells can much more effective in some cases.

 

opponents tend to be able to run across it completely before the round-tick checks for application of any effects

Well, I may try to fix that, I had to do something like that for IR's Belt of Inertial Barrier.

 

Anyway, after thinking about it I think you're supposed to cast Grease under target's feet, not in front of them while they advance (unless in a narrow corridor). BG's AI is quite limited and will continue in your direction, but in theory only a feebleminded character would be so stupid to do it when he can just opt for a longer but safer way.

 

Of course "grease" could have an "entangle" effect. Walk barefoot on a greased floor, or with smooth shoes on ice - if and when you fall you are effectively "entangled" as you struggle to get up. Or for that matter, you could be stuck in really sticky mud...

Ehm...that sounds like "falling to the ground" (current Grease effect) rather than "staying up and casting or fighting" (which is Entangle's effect).

 

 

Greater Command

By the way, I just noticed that the level 5 divine spell "greater command" is very similar to the current Grease, except it's a bit bigger, saves at -4, and it's not stationary AoE (so if they wake up, they stay up!) and no movement rate effect. Dunno about the balance at this point since Grease is still under review. But it looks a bit weak to me.

Well, the advantages of Greater Command are:

1. -4 penalty to save (more or less you can translate it into a +20% chance to affect each target)

2. 20' feet radius (twice as much as Grease)

3. party friendly (this is a quite noticeable advantage)

 

In theory GrCommand has another huge advantage over most other AoE spells, the instant casting time, but Grease right now has the same feature.

[Duckfeet]

Of course "grease" could have an "entangle" effect. Walk barefoot on a greased floor, or with smooth shoes on ice - if and when you fall you are effectively "entangled" as you struggle to get up. Or for that matter, you could be stuck in really sticky mud...

 

If you're Entangled (per the spell), you can't move, but can do everything else at full capacity.

 

If you're struggling to get up, you don't get to simultaneously swing a weapon / draw a bow / cast a spell. As for the "sticky mud" argument, the spell is "Grease", not "Transmute Rock to Mud" (I think there actually is a spell in PnP that does that, I forgot). EDIT: Yes there is, found it here. 5th level spell!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm

 

Besides, I like the "flop on your back" animation. It's gorgeous and I wish it was used more.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Duckfeet

[Guest Polyphrast]

Hello Everyone,

 

first off, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this mod (and Item Revisions, too) in advance, I'm pretty certain my next playthrough (BiG World) will be much more fun (and more of a challenge) because of these mods.

 

Now, I have some questions (you probably guessed I would):

 

1. In what way have the familiars been fixed and tweaked?

 

I tried to find something in the forum or the readme, but I didn't - probably I just overlooked it or looked in the wrong place(then I'd be grateful for directions).

 

2. I'm not such a great fan of the level capping of spells - in my last playthrough I had lvl50 spells installed and enjoyed the Game very much (maybe it's a masochistic streak of mine that I don't mind reloading 10+ times a fight just because a triple flame arrow sequencer got through and killed my protagonist - but I like the idea of facing a powerful mage when facing a powerful mage).

Is it possible, after installation of Spell revisions, to remove the level cap of spells by simply adding effects in NI? Or would I have to make a more complicated approach?

And would that mean, if I did just that, that Flame Arrow for example would shoot Arrows at more random targets (I like envisioning that idea of a lich sending a hail of magical arrows towards the group of adventurers with the cheek to disturb his studies) - or would it mean that the first target would bear the brunt of the hail of arrows and four arrows would be shot off randomly - or would it mean a simple CTD?

 

Oh, btw, I hope you don't mind me mucking about with your mod - especially since the mod was made in the spirit of balancing the game and what I'm about to do is to seriously tip the balance in favour of magical combat (not in my favour, though, since in my next playthrough the only more-or-less single classed mage in the party will be Imoen...).

 

Thank you for your replies.

All the best,

Polyphrast

[Demivrgvs]

1. In what way have the familiars been fixed and tweaked?

 

I tried to find something in the forum or the readme, but I didn't - probably I just overlooked it or looked in the wrong place(then I'd be grateful for directions).

My fault, I had a doc about it back then in v2 but when I planned the huge re-revision I removed it. I'll provide you a topic or a link to it, but don't expect anything revolutionary, as the ones within V3 are the same I had in V1, and they probably aren't as good in quality as most other things we've worked on in recent versions.

 

2. ... Is it possible, after installation of Spell revisions, to remove the level cap of spells by simply adding effects in NI? Or would I have to make a more complicated approach?

Strontium Dog can probably help you better than me, because I personally never worked on compatibility between SR and spell50 mod for obvious reasons: it's like asking me to vote for Berlusconi.

 

And would that mean, if I did just that, that Flame Arrow for example would shoot Arrows at more random targets (I like envisioning that idea of a lich sending a hail of magical arrows towards the group of adventurers with the cheek to disturb his studies) - or would it mean that the first target would bear the brunt of the hail of arrows and four arrows would be shot off randomly - or would it mean a simple CTD?

For this spell in particular I highly doubt you can extend it as you wish, because it uses a quite complicate shell system of multiple spells, and I don't recommend to mess with it.

 

Oh, btw, I hope you don't mind me mucking about with your mod - especially since the mod was made in the spirit of balancing the game and what I'm about to do is to seriously tip the balance in favour of magical combat (not in my favour, though, since in my next playthrough the only more-or-less single classed mage in the party will be Imoen...).

Removing the cap seriously ruins the game balance, but it's your game and I'm not the police. Edited February 11, 2010 by Demivrgvs