Feedback

[Demivrgvs]

Insect spells, Gust of Wind & Zone of Sweet Air

Thanks Kreso, you saved me a lot of time. That being said, we might have one last thing to discuss imo: should GoW disperse insects within the entire area (like gases), within 5 feet (like its knockback effect), or only on self? If GoW cures insects in the entire area I fear insect spells will turn from really good spells into utterly useless. Not to mention only players will seriously benefit from this tweak.

 

Also, I'd like to remove cleric GoW and restore Zone of Sweet Air as a party friendly immunity to cloud based spells for a short duration (max 1 turn). What do you think?

 

Protection from Fire/Electricity/Cold/Acid

A daring thought. What if I move mage ones from 5th to 4th (many playersconsider them too much expensive) and turn priest ones into a AoE version with much shorted duration? The cool thing is that 2 of them even existed within AD&D: ProFire -> Fire Ward; ProEle -> Grounding. No idea how to call the other 2.

 

(Un)Holy Word

Wouldn't the alignment of the deity invoked by (un)holy word have some bearing on the effects of that invocation?

My thought exactly. The idea is that an evil deity power would manifest with negative/necrotic like effects, while a good aligned deity would manifest as positive/radiant effects.

 

Next build

Now there is nothing but to wait for the next SR release: it should be a juicy one.

It will. I'm also sure Jarno will still complain even after I spent hours re-doing each and every summon stat.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Next build

I'm also sure Jarno will still complain even after I spent hours re-doing each and every summon stat.

Well yes, I am that reliable, it's called Imput, not input for reasons ... but that's why I am there for. Well unless you make the hole-in-one-3hundred-and-so-forth-lightyear-putt.

[kreso]

Insect spells, Gust of Wind & Zone of Sweet Air

should GoW disperse insects within the entire area (like gases), within 5 feet (like its knockback effect), or only on self?

I vote 5 feet. If it proves to be too good we can increase it's casting time slightly. It's a level 2 spell which can counter Creeping Doom now.

 

 

Also, I'd like to remove cleric GoW and restore Zone of Sweet Air as a party friendly immunity to cloud based spells for a short duration (max 1 turn). What do you think?

I stand by what I said in PM, t-up, but caster only gets gas-immune.

 

Look:

[geg_Ma3gau]

Is the spell shield supposed to give immunity to dispel magic?

[Demivrgvs]

Spell Shield

Is the spell shield supposed to give immunity to dispel magic?

A few builds ago we merged Spell Shield with SI:Abj because I was trying to get rid of the latter, but it was not covering cases where the AI was casting both of them, thus we created Dispelling Screen which has already changed like 3 times in the last builds. Dispel Magic is the bane of BG magic system.

 

Btw, I just noticed Spell Shield description still says it protects from Dispel Magic, but it actually doesn't. Fixed for next build thanks.

[geg_Ma3gau]

Spell Shield

Is the spell shield supposed to give immunity to dispel magic?

A few builds ago we merged Spell Shield with SI:Abj because I was trying to get rid of the latter, but it was not covering cases where the AI was casting both of them, thus we created Dispelling Screen which has already changed like 3 times in the last builds. Dispel Magic is the bane of BG magic system.

 

Btw, I just noticed Spell Shield description still says it protects from Dispel Magic, but it actually doesn't. Fixed for next build thanks.

Yes make sure its fixed i think it doesnt protect on my characters but it protects vs dispel on AI characters. (needs checking)

[toxin]

The deafness effect isn't a problem for players imo despite geg hating it. Players can block it with spell protections, cure it with a spell or even with a potion. I'm more concerned about its effectiveness against AI, which cannot rely much on those.

 

To a lesser extent I don't like that the only effect not limited by HD check is purely anti-spellcaster, but that's not a big deal.

What spell protection blocks holy word deafness (besides Shield of the Archons I guess)?

Spells are almost useless when a single holy word deafens your entire party.

I guess you could stock up on Elixirs of health, though I'm not sure how many of these are available (haven't checked).

 

How is something that seriously messes up the most important part of the game's strategy not a big deal?

 

If GoW cures insects in the entire area I fear insect spells will turn from really good spells into utterly useless

 

How is that different from, say, incendiary cloud? That's a lvl 8 spell nullified by the same counter - compared to that summon insects is nothing.

 

One thing missing from this discussion is opportunity cost. Sure, you could have all your casters quaff a potion to counter the deafness effects, but that's typically 2-3 wasted caster rounds (+2-3 wasted potions which are not unlimited in the game). These critical rounds often determine the outcome of a battle (e.g. you could have cast comet, dragon breath, chaos...) and IMO such an AoE effect with no save is simply too powerful, let alone for a 7th level spell.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Btw, I just noticed Spell Shield description still says it protects from Dispel Magic, but it actually doesn't.

This is why you really should work out how to make the graphic table that tells us the general state of the union.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Jarno Mikkola

[geg_Ma3gau]

Also, currently break enchantment doesnt remove silence

[subtledoctor]

How is something that seriously messes up the most important part of the game's strategy not a big deal?

 

Sure, you could have all your casters quaff a potion to counter the deafness effects, but that's typically 2-3 wasted caster rounds (+2-3 wasted potions which are not unlimited in the game). These critical rounds often determine the outcome of a battle

Isn't the whole point of battles in this game that you try to mess up your opponents' strategy, and your opponent tries to mess up yours? And you both then try to adapt and counter? It's the highest level spell, and it buys a single round (2-3 spells, as you say) against opposing casters... that's too powerful??? I'm trying to think how it could be *less* powerful.

 

It's a priest directly channeling the voice of a *god* - what do you suggest the effects be? Something that *doesn't* harm opponents? Instead of just saying "nerf it nerf it nerf it" maybe suggest what you think the spell should do.

 

No reason to stick to PnP here IMHO. So here's another idea: Weakness (Str/Dex/Con penalties) plus a casting speed penalty, no save, 5 rounds. So you can still fight, you can still cast, but are less efficient at both. To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

[Jarno Mikkola]

So here's another idea: Weakness (Str/Dex/Con penalties) plus a casting speed penalty, no save, 5 rounds. So you can still fight, you can still cast, but are less efficient at both. To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

Sounds good ... not perhaps the voice, but surely their ire and shady side of their button region.

Erhm, how about a small negative and positive luck modifier ? 5 rounds, hmm, how about 2 rounds +1/10 round per every level. Yes, that's ~3-7 rounds, eventually. After all you need to be higher than 13th level to cast the thing.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

 

 

Btw, I just noticed Spell Shield description still says it protects from Dispel Magic, but it actually doesn't. Fixed for next build thanks.

Yes make sure its fixed i think it doesnt protect on my characters but it protects vs dispel on AI characters. (needs checking)

 

It doesn't. AI uses the same spell you do.

 

 

If GoW cures insects in the entire area I fear insect spells will turn from really good spells into utterly useless

 

How is that different from, say, incendiary cloud? That's a lvl 8 spell nullified by the same counter - compared to that summon insects is nothing.

You can move away from cloud, while Insects engulf you.

 

To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

We should rename it into Litany of Curses; and make those in AoE mindlessly attack the caster, thinking he is Morte.

[Demivrgvs]

Break Enchantment

Also, currently break enchantment doesnt remove silence

Have you any mod installed? I just checked and everything looks fine (sec type on Silence is 'disabling' and BE removes it).

 

Gust of Wind vs Insect spells

@Toxin, point taken on Incendiary Cloud. Let's say I don't particulary like that either then. I do think "counters" needs to be a bit cheaper than the offensive stuff or the system would automatically makes high level casters omnipotent, but lvl 2-3 countering a lvl 7-8 is a bit too much imo. That being said, SR's Creeping Doom can still matter I guess because the target will not be able to cast GoW unless he makes a save first, and since V4 it also has a chance to poison multiple targets before insects are dispersed.

 

(Un)Holy Word

@toxin I'm more inclined to agree with Subtle when it comes tothese spells "power" - they are underwhelming rather than OP imo - but I can understand how annoying can be a 'mass 50% spell failure with no save' in a game where everyone and their mother relies on spells. Later editions nerfed deafness to 20% spell failure, but I cannot do it (it's hardcoded). Hopefully this whole discussion we'll force me to make these spells more cool and not just nerf them.

 

So here's another idea: Weakness (Str/Dex/Con penalties) plus a casting speed penalty, no save, 5 rounds. So you can still fight, you can still cast, but are less efficient at both. To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

Sounds good ... not perhaps the voice, but surely their ire and shady side of their button region.
Erhm, how about a small negative and positive luck modifier ? 5 rounds, hmm, how about 1 or 2 rounds +1/10 round per every level. Yes, that's 6 rounds, eventually.

@subtle that looks like Symbol of Weakness which is already available at the same spl lvl.

@Jarno Chant 2, The Revenge?

 

Two questions before I seriously start to design a possible alternative for these two spells:

1) do we want to keep the HD limits?

2) save, or no save?

[toxin]

Isn't the whole point of battles in this game that you try to mess up your opponents' strategy, and your opponent tries to mess up yours? And you both then try to adapt and counter? It's the highest level spell, and it buys a single round (2-3 spells, as you say) against opposing casters... that's too powerful??? I'm trying to think how it could be *less* powerful.

 

A single round assuming you have enough potions for all such situations in the game, which I suspect is far from the case. Besides, a big part of the strategy is preparation, as as far as I can tell there's no way to defend against deafness (save for SotA I suppose). Moreover, I submit that a single 7th lvl spell that pseudo-neutralizes your entire caster roster with no save and no defense, even for a single round, is OP. Kind of reminds me of the DM issue. And like Demi said, this is even worse for the AI.

 

It's a priest directly channeling the voice of a *god* - what do you suggest the effects be? Something that *doesn't* harm opponents? Instead of just saying "nerf it nerf it nerf it" maybe suggest what you think the spell should do.

 

SR is geared towards balance. This means that the fact that the voice of a god is involved is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is the fact that it's a 7th lvl priest spell, and should be about as powerful as the other 7th lvl spells. As for my suggestion - level check and/or save for the deafness effect.

 

No reason to stick to PnP here IMHO. So here's another idea: Weakness (Str/Dex/Con penalties) plus a casting speed penalty, no save, 5 rounds. So you can still fight, you can still cast, but are less efficient at both. To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

 

Fair enough. Much better than the current situation. It would be nice to have something like "mass cure disease" to combat this (as well as symbol weakness) though.

 

You can move away from cloud, while Insects engulf you.

 

This only strengthens my argument. If we have an 8th lvl spell you can just walk away from AND dispel with a 2-3 lvl spell (GoW) and that's not considered useless, why would insect swarm be considered as such? Also if you hit the only caster that has GoW memorized it may not help him much, and even if he was able to cast it, that's still a wasted opportunity cost where he could have cast, say, Holy Word

 

BTW, whatever you do with the spell please fix its description - it current says deafness only takes place when the target's level is equal to the caster's level.

Edited January 16, 2016 by toxin

[Demivrgvs]

@Toxin see my post above, we probably wrote at the same time. Btw, Spell Deflection works against pretty much averything unless you don't like the AoE tweak, but I guess I cannot count on an optional component even if recommended.