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Hello all,

 

just wondering if there is currently a bug with the Detect Illusion Spell (i have BG:EET installed with BWS using SR4b and compatible SCS )

Have just tried to use it to dispel mirror image on Rakashasa's and it seems to do nothing, as far as i know their innate magic resistance should not be a factor in this, furthermore it doesn't seem to work against improved invisibility as is stated it will.

Currently Invisibility purge on the clerics is the only ability before oracle that removes II, as i have just done De'Arnes Keep i noticed that DI doesn't effect spirit trolls either but Purge invis makes them target-able by spells like normal.

 

Just wondering if i have missed something or maybe my game or installation is having issues, i recall the main usage of DI was to strip mages in SCS of their II, what is the intended purpose of this spell in SR?

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Hello all, just wondering if there is currently a bug with the Detect Illusion Spell (i have BG:EET installed with BWS using SR4b and compatible SCS )

Have just tried to use it to dispel mirror image on Rakashasa's and it seems to do nothing, as far as i know their innate magic resistance should not be a factor in this

Why not ?

Cause the R's species innate spell resistance is up to a 5th level, and Detect Illusion is a 2nd level spell.

 

Not that Rakashasa's should be using the mirror image, as he should be immune to it as well. But that's BS in the mods, not the base game. As their AI's were build to avoid these things. But it might make them yeah a little more vulnerable, but not in a cheat ways. As requiring a 9th level spell to dispel a 6th level spell is pure and despicable CHEATING.

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Detect Illusion is a 3rd level spell. But yeah, it's probably because of the spell-level immunity as the Imp said.

 

I need to get around to making a mod to affect that... it causes no end of trouble, especially since SCS makes static lists of spells to which they are immune (I think?) and is thus incompatible with any mod that adds any new spells.

 

I'd like to see something like this: make it school-based. Have a late-install mod (like SCS!) simply poll all spells up to level 5, check their school, and create an effect on the fly that grants immunity to all such spells from all schools except Abjuration and Divination. And then patch that effect onto an .itm or (preferably) the .cre.

 

I say preferably on the .cre itself, because bonus points if there is an option to make the immunity Breach-able or Pierce-able.

 

EDIT to add: I know the stupid Rakdhasa like to spam AoE spells at their feet, and having their immunity breached would make them vulnerable to their own AI scripts... so I would simply make them immune to several damage types (fire, cold, magic, poison) or maybe better, complete and un-Breach-able immunity to Invocation spells.

Edited by subtledoctor
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Thanks for the reply guys, i had totally forgotten about their immunity there and not sure if it was a mod or not but probably so, it was straight after the DA keep and connected to the R's looking for the flail of ages, as far as the spirit trolls go should Detect illusion be effecting them ?

Once again i'm not sure what effect that it is on spirit trolls but it functions like improved invis, which is credited on the description of Detect illusion, unfortunately like the R's behavior invis purge is working but DI isn't.

Just wanted to throw out some general feedback for the mod

  • Loving it in general, seems to me a vast improvement over vanilla mostly in concern to making a lot of underused spells viable choices now, as that was mostly the intent as far as i have read then you hit the nail on the head, have actually used contagion!
  • The compatibility with SCS seems core to me, as they behave almost perfectly together to heighten the spell battle experience, when proper versions are installed correctly ofc.

Thoughts on Druid changes

Druids! oh man my equal favorite class feels good again, differentiating the druid from the priest class and spell list has been amazing for me, all of it feels like it works to give druids their own identity.

I'm in agreement with your removal of divine type spells from the druid kit, once again it gives identity to the druids and i feel that its been made up for in general.
I am a huge fan of playing the druid as a summoner style char and the animal summoning spells have made this feel great, especially like the hasted jaguars.
lastly swapping flat heals for regen is something i have always wanted and not only feels balanced but opens up interesting new tactics to longer battles with sanctuary and the like.

 

Below in the spoiler tag are my thoughts on the druid changes on a spell by spell basis, have hidden it to make the post cleaner, let me know if this was appreciated or helpful or if i am just wasting peoples time here.

Thanks for a great mod Demi, its become core to my BG experience like SCS has been for a long time now.

 

Sun scorch is great and feels very much like getting something you didn't know you needed and the damage values feel balanced for a lvl 1 spell
Shillelagh works now for the early club drought and progresses at a sane rate,
Bark skin feels balanced after the changes from V3 to V4b
Flame blade has a niche albeit small one and becomes obsolete quickly, if i recall vanilla's wasn't even a magic weapon so i see this as an improvement
Good berry i'm glad is a lvl 1 spell now tho i admit i don't use it much, this might change once my druid hits lvl 9 and i get 3 points per berry.
Faerie fire i have used against stealth shadow thieves and other for the -2 AC bump, feel pretty good for a lvl 1 spell,
Obscuring mist is also a really intriguing spell and i feel its usefulness is related fairly strongly to your play style and party composition, i don't find myself using it much after the the early stages of BG2. (have BG:EET installed)
Magic Fang is fundamental to the druid kit as it makes the summoner style more than just provide front line tanks for the meat grinder, as far as i remember vanilla BG had nothing below lvl 6 that could damage a creature with normal weapons immunity.
Icelance feels really good, possibly a little strong when you first acquire it but that is made up for with its total lack of scaling i suppose and no negatives on the save chance, late in the game (BG2) this spell falls off hard.
Spike Growth Happy to see an ice wind dale favorite that basically hasn't changed and doesn't need to be.
Storm shield Have not tested this enough to give a full point of view, looking to test out exactly what cloud/gas effects it will shield from higher up the spell levels, having immunity to insect spells is a godsend for a couple of fights so far.
Call woodland beings Love the changes to this spell quite a bit actually, almost all of the summons in the BG series are melee range tanks or melee summons that infer non-physical damage types, this spell here feels way more balanced than the original, which gave you something silly like 25+ combined spell levels of casting out of a single level 4 spell, including confusion and Mass healing!
I'm happy this has been separated out by having a caster level cap at lvl 11 for the nymph and also giving both the nymph and Hamadryad's spells that feel canon to D&D, furthermore i defiantly appreciate that the Hamadryad's are archers here, and have used this spell at earlier levels for just this reason, great stuff and great balancing here.
​Poison This spell is finally appealing, i do wonder about the choice to make it a lot more front loaded than i would of expected and have the save only save you from the ongoing damage, also the scaling is interesting as well and i'm not sure how i feel about it atm, max damage is 124 at 15th level and a full 1 turn duration of damage effects, so far i have not used more than half or less of its duration on an enemy without them dying from another source of damage, i wonder if the average up time of the poison effect was considered here. With an average dice roll. E.G lvl 15 8D8 = 32 Average front loaded and half or less duration for 30 ongoing, basically it feels 50/50 front loaded to ongoing which kind of doesn't make me think a poison spell right? but i guess maybe this is a smart way to balance for game play reasons.
Ice Storm Another great spell from the dales and works perfectly into the identity of the druid, So far i have seen a lot of buggy interactions with the Move speed effect not working as intended. (BWS installed SCS compatibility version)
True Seeing This has been debated in these forums and i have to say it hurts to lose some of its effectiveness, but honestly i can admit this spell was a crutch on which a lot of players i talk to like to lean, it was simply the answer to way too many things, and a spell i had running in every single mage battle in BG2 with SCS only running. Furthermore with more choices at this level, i now actually have to think about what to take at this spell level now and it remains effective enough to be a key advantage to taking a druid to a mage fight.
Stone Skin I'm really not totally caught up with why this spell is here rather than iron skins, but i assume it has to do with breach not effecting iron skins at all and thus being broken both for the player and for SCS druids using it, i really don't have any beef at all with this change
Animal Growth Once again i'm a fan of these spells to buff your summons, does it job well and having the duration be the same as animal summons themselves makes good sense, the slight frustration i run into is that it doesnt seem to give animals the ability to hit normal weapon immune creatures and requires also Magic fang to be case to be effective against them, why cast 3 spells when you could just summon an elemental instead with a mage.
Protection from Acid/Cold//Electricity/Fire Not sure how i feel about these spells, if you have played the game a few times and know the encounters these spells make at least some of them feel a little bit cheesy, as they are either perfect for an encounter or close to useless

I'll stop here and give my thoughts on the higher level stuff when i have played around with them some more and if people/the author have appreciated my feedback.


Edited by DavidC
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EDIT to add: I know the stupid Rakdhasa like to spam AoE spells at their feet, and having their immunity breached would make them vulnerable to their own AI scripts... so I would simply make them immune to several damage types (fire, cold, magic, poison) or maybe better, complete and un-Breach-able immunity to Invocation spells.

You can't breah this kind of immunity as it comes from an item that the .cre is holding that can't be removed. Just like the lich.itm ring that makes Liches immune... and skeletons have the undead.itm or whatever...

But those items need to be consistent... so if the intent is a level immunity, then immunity it is up to and including the "positive" effects too. As you don't need to use Breach spell when you have nothing(no protections) to breach throw.

This way, a Lich wouldn't use invisibility, and thus no player would need to use the detect invisibility on them. This is an example of course... be they improved(+2 levels), incinerated(+3), or whatever(+x). They can use the clone spells to get "invisibility effect" on them, but that's higher than their own resistance levels, and loose of attack spell. And yeah, they can use their "natural" spell immunity level to not get hit by their own fireballs spells as their actual self-defense instead of a cheated invisibility.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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its clear to me that this is a single encounter only issue that has been added by a mod, there are spells that state Magic resistance is ignored, unfortunately i assumed this bypassed the innate spell immunity they have, why does Dispel magic seem to work on them? Or am i just twisting my head around because of a single mod added encounter that isn't playing by the normal rules.

 

EDIT: to be clear, i'm referencing that Raksasha encounter i had

Edited by DavidC
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It's not a single encounter... it's every high level encounter you'll be doing against a set of creatures(Liches, Raksasha and maybe two others). Yes, there's very few of these creatures... but that doesn't remove them from the fact that the AI is made to cheat in them.

Magic resistance and innate magic resistance of a set level spells is done very differently, as one is based on the spells ability to pierce the normal resistance that is in all the .cre attribute... and the other is done with immunity effect opcode(s).

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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....................

 

1, thnx for feedback.

About druids and their spells :

Obscuring Mist should (imo) have a shorter duration and less AoE. It's insane for it's level when used in conjuction with some other stuff.

Ice Storm is buggy since it's movement rate decrease ignores MR. Frankly, I'd add a save vs it as well - this spell is so good that it should probably be on level 6 as it is.

Stoneskin is labeled as such since "druids shun iron". It's effects are the same. In vanilla game, Ironskins were coded as "spell protection" so you'd need things such as Spellstrike to remove it (and in EE, you still do, even if the spell doesn't protect you against a single spell and is a copy of wizard's stoneskin).

Pro X (element) spells are kind of a legacy. Wizards get a single spell and then choose what element immunity they want. Afaik Demi had an idea to make these druid/cleric spells short-duration but with a party-wide effect.

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EDIT to add: I know the stupid Rakdhasa like to spam AoE spells at their feet, and having their immunity breached would make them vulnerable to their own AI scripts... so I would simply make them immune to several damage types (fire, cold, magic, poison) or maybe better, complete and un-Breach-able immunity to Invocation spells.

You can't breah this kind of immunity as it comes from an item that the .cre is holding that can't be removed. Just like the lich.itm ring that makes Liches immune... and skeletons have the undead.itm or whatever...
Ya I know that... that's why I said it would be preferable to apply the immunity as an effect on the .cre rather than on the item. Then it would be super simple to have a component that patches the effect to be a "spell protection" and render it subject to Pierce Magic etc. Edited by subtledoctor
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Ya I know that... that's why I said it would be preferable to apply the immunity as an effect on the .cre rather than on the item. Then it would be super simple to have a component that patches the effect to be a "spell protection" and render it subject to Pierce Magic etc.

You have to explain this better if you are to get anyone to agree with you, as I don't see a circumstance that would make much difference ? As you can make the opcode 101 effect to any other opcode, spell or .itm based thing... so.

But explain if you can.

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Afaik Rakshasa have no MR at all. They're simply immune to spells of level 7 and below. Unfortunately, with so many anti-illusion spells available (I don't even know what's the difference between all of them, tbh) something can go wrong. I'm pretty sure that one of them (could be DI) needs to be cast *somewhere* (like a Fireball), unlike the others which are cast on "self".

Now the problem is that spells cast on "self" ignore MR, spell level immunity or whatever (Lich can cast stoneskin, even if he's immune to level 4 spells, same as Rakshasa).

So, the solution would be to make the buggy spell be cast on "self" rather than "any point within range" - this would make it work vs illusions despite being low-leveled.

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(Lich can cast stoneskin, even if he's immune to level 4 spells, same as Rakshasa).

Well, there's opcode 206 for this... and other things. It's just needed in the lich.itm file. Ps: demilich.itm should have every spell in the game, except the level 9 mage spells(and HLAs).
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Ya I know that... that's why I said it would be preferable to apply the immunity as an effect on the .cre rather than on the item. Then it would be super simple to have a component that patches the effect to be a "spell protection" and render it subject to Pierce Magic etc.

You have to explain this better if you are to get anyone to agree with you, as I don't see a circumstance that would make much difference ? As you can make the opcode 101 effect to any other opcode, spell or .itm based thing... so.

But explain if you can.

Remove the immunity from the ring, run an ADD_CRE_EFFECT with 146 casting a spell that grants the immunity, and is coded as a spell protection. Now when you hit the Rakh with Secret Word or Pierce Magic, it removes the immunity. Adds a bit more strategery to the encounter... Edited by subtledoctor
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Remove the immunity from the ring, run an ADD_CRE_EFFECT with 146 casting a spell that grants the immunity, and is coded as a spell protection. Now when you hit the Rakh with Secret Word or Pierce Magic, it removes the immunity. Adds a bit more strategery to the encounter...

But the thing is, you are not supposed to be able to make the R's take damage from spells that they are naturally immune to, just MAGICal weapons, without needing to wait for them to run out of the protections(PfMW). They can still have other protections like stoneskins that might not be dispelled the same way, if they choose to use a high level spell on that, as they are immune to low level spells.
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Unfortunately, with so many anti-illusion spells available (I don't even know what's the difference between all of them, tbh) something can go wrong. I'm pretty sure that one of them (could be DI) needs to be cast *somewhere* (like a Fireball), unlike the others which are cast on "self".

Now the problem is that spells cast on "self" ignore MR, spell level immunity or whatever

Oh man this would explain the behavior i'm seeing in game perfectly on Raks, the big frustration for me is that Spirit trolls are not target-able by single target spells because of their improved invis effect, Detect illusion like you mentioned requires a target or area to fire not self cast and does nothing to them at all, where as Invis Purge is self cast and works,

To bring it back to Spell Revisions here am i seeing intended behavior or is there a bug with detect illusion here, Spirit trolls have no magic resistance and no innate spell level immunity either, either both spells should work or neither should work, i cannot see how this isn't a bug effecting SR either that or i have a horrible memory for vanilla EE which i have only played once without SCS

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