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On 1/8/2019 at 10:49 AM, TheLoneTremere said:

I'm trying for the life of me remember where this spell came from, it seems that SCS didn't change this in anyway, so i'd figure i would post this on here. The spell in question is emotion:dispair.

That's a vanilla spell...

8 hours ago, Guest Danacm said:

Hi im new there. I tried this mod and it has a lots potential. 

Some questions. Shouldnt be not too op to forbid attack under time stop ? I really dislike this ability because its no counterplay with devour brain combo. 

Absolut immunity and protection from magical weapons are op as hell, regardless of short duration. Can it modified smthing else ability ? 

Pro Magic Weapons is arguably the most annoying spell in the game, I hate it with a passion that burns as bright and hot as a thousand suns... but apparently any changes to it would mess up SCS AI, so there's nothing to do about it without violating one of the core tenets of this mod, which is to work well with SCS.

Absolute Immunity is a 9th-level spell - god magic.  Should be powerful.

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Roughly:

- if you change the basic effect, creatures will make some bad calls and bad memorization choices. Basically, anything immune to normal weapons (so: vampires, liches, cambions, rakshasas) prioritises PMW and mostly doesn't waste spell slots on Mantle/IM/Absolute Immunity. So if PMW no longer gives them absolute protection, they'll protect themselves a lot less than they should. And sometimes a "normal" mage, late in the game, will use PMW rather than Mantle on the grounds that the party probably has powerful enough weapons to cut through Mantle anyway and they'd rather rely on Stoneskin and avoid the party's on-hit spell effects.

- if you change the duration, you mess with creatures' calculus of how to balance attack and defense.

 

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Understood. For the record, I didn't actually have any interest in changing it, it was more probing exactly how it might be problematic.

Since I already have you, @DavidW, could you tell me whether SCS's enemy using potions subcomponent ever uses potn33.itm (Potion of Magic Blocking in vanilla, Potion of Magic Dispelling in IR), and whether IR being installed affects that at all?

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I don't use potn33 at the moment. IIRC I used to, but it's too awkward to avoid doing something stupid, since it strips your own protective spells.

I make very little allowance for IR: the only items I react to are clck24, clck26, plat16 and boot11.

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16 hours ago, DavidW said:

Roughly:

- if you change the basic effect, creatures will make some bad calls and bad memorization choices. Basically, anything immune to normal weapons (so: vampires, liches, cambions, rakshasas) prioritises PMW and mostly doesn't waste spell slots on Mantle/IM/Absolute Immunity. So if PMW no longer gives them absolute protection, they'll protect themselves a lot less than they should. And sometimes a "normal" mage, late in the game, will use PMW rather than Mantle on the grounds that the party probably has powerful enough weapons to cut through Mantle anyway and they'd rather rely on Stoneskin and avoid the party's on-hit spell effects.

1

Is that such a bad call ?

I question this determination... because the player can't do that*. I'll explain. See if you cast PfMW and you already have the PfNW, you get a scripted response that this is illegal and your PfMW has not had an impact, and so you lose the spell(the ability to cast spells at this 6 seconds) and the ability to cast this charge of it.

*Until the very end of the SoA campaign where one gets the ability to be PfNW -on the player character if you choose the choice, -without the spell at a point where it really doesn't matter at all, unless you have Rogue Rebalance or was it aTweaks... and it's only for the Player Character, this point being a demigod... so Aerie, for example, is flat-out restricted from using it.

I would propose a restriction that hurts the Liches, etc from using cheese without being punished for it..10 hitpoints sounds good a penalty. I can make a 1000++ hitpoint punishment too, just like there is no cheese rule for Time Stop.. but that's a bit overbound. The other option is for them to drop their rings when they cast the spell.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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As you recognize yourself, the player absolutely can do that. PFNW and PFMW don't stack, but innate immunity to normal weapons - as possessed inter alia by liches, rakshasas, and sufficiently advanced Bhaalspawn - does stack with PFMW. And this is pretty clearly intentional: the vanilla lich script, for instance, buffs with PFMW rather than Mantle or similar. Yes, Aerie will never acquire the ability, unlike liches; she will never acquire outright immunity to L1-5 spells either, unlike liches. Poor Aerie.

In any case, SCS's design goals are to work with the existing spell system except where I think having an appropriately tactically-interesting encounter compels tweaks to it, and then to make those tweaks as small as possible. This clearly doesn't qualify.

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AI attackers don't switch from magic weapons to normal ones when the player is protected by PfMW. So contrary to what the Imp suggests, the spell hands a massive advantage to the player. For human players, PfMW is effectively a longer-lasting vanilla Absolute Immunity  

If the AI did switch weapons, it would be interesting, because there is still a real defensive advantage in being struck by a normal weapon instead of, say, Crom Faeyr or Celestial Fury. 

It woukd be interesting if a defensive spell could give you that advantage: Protection from Weapon Magic instead of Protection from Magic Weapons. Like, when the spell is in effect, all weapons have their magical attack and damage bonuses, and any on-hit effects, nullified. Even spice it up, make the spell scramble any equipping effects beneficial to the wielder. Stack it with slashing resistance, and voila, you're protected from magical swords  And/or use the Mantle series of spells to fully avoid being hit.

That would actually be mostly doable in the EE games... but of course, the rub is, it wouldn't work well with SCS AI. So... no-go. 

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22 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

For human players, PfMW is effectively a longer-lasting vanilla Absolute Immunity  

Same duration in fact.

I occasionally toy with giving creatures backup normal weapons, but it's messy and clutters loot.

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38 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

AI attackers don't switch from magic weapons to normal ones when the player is protected by PfMW. So contrary to what the Imp suggests, the spell hands a massive advantage to the player. For human players, PfMW is effectively a longer-lasting vanilla Absolute Immunity 

 

This is only if you look the monsters by themselves... but one never does. There are other monsters that can be summoned that have normal weapons... that have to be dealt with. Immunity to vampires weapon doesn't remove it's level drain ability. And level drain doesn't work against non-human players... unless you use one of the mods that actually makes it do what it's supposed to.

And like I said, the AI can switch weapons if it has them available... like the thieves in the Avengers mod have. 

15 minutes ago, DavidW said:

Same duration in fact.

I occasionally toy with giving creatures backup normal weapons, but it's messy and clutters loot.

 

So you won't add a secondary weapon just cause you failed to use:

COPY_EXISTING ~...cre~ ~override~
  ADD_CRE_ITEM ~sw2h01~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ EQUIP TWOHANDED

's weapon2, well the sw2h01 just needs to be replaced with an undroppable version of it. Yes, there's a little more to it, but anyways... well, the "equip" in that if you want it to be the default weapon. 

And replace the word "duration" in that with "effect", and you got it correctly. The Lich uses 9th levels spells like they were 6th. Without any penalties... like for example 10 points of damage..that the player could also take.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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I don't like adding undroppable items; it breaks immersion.

(The complexity isn't really in the item addition - amazingly enough, I do know how to use COPY_EXISTING - but in the scripting; even then, though, it's more a messiness problem.) 

"The Lich uses 9th level spells like they were 6th."

Turns out becoming an undead abomination has significant game-mechanical advantages. Who knew?

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3 hours ago, DavidW said:

"The Lich uses 9th level spells like they were 6th."

Turns out becoming an undead abomination has significant game-mechanical advantages. Who knew?

It's a travesty that we have this brand new forum software and it still doesn't give me a "like" button for this. 

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4 hours ago, DavidW said:

"The Lich uses 9th level spells like they were 6th."

Turns out becoming an undead abomination has significant game-mechanical advantages. Who knew?

 

Thing is, becoming a Lich is a failure, not a success of the mages power. Just like becoming a wraith is not a good way to die/escape the mortal realm.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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On 2/15/2019 at 11:57 AM, subtledoctor said:

That's a vanilla spell...

 

 

Yeah sorry, i didnt know what mod was making changes to it. However i did a reinstall with things like tome of blood removed, among the spells from dsotsc removed because it would vonflict with ctb. I also got rid of a fix pack for spell notification expiration.

 

Which seems to make it normal now. Weird though isn't it.

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24 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Thing is, becoming a Lich is a failure, not a success of the mages power. Just like becoming a wraith is not a good way to die/escape the mortal realm.

It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for 100% immunity to cold, electricity, and nonomagical weapons, immunity to first-to-fifth level spells, and a fear aura, Richard?

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