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If a character has Detect Invisibility or True Seeing up, that character can target a lich with spellcasting through improved invisibility. Emphasis: that character. If you have an Inquisitor cast True Seeing, this doesn't help you because the rest of your party will still not be able to cast through the improved invisibility. If your mage is running TS/DI, they should able to, though.

The mechanics of Non-Detection, Improved Invisibility, and True Seeing/Detect Invisibility are basically currently unexplained in SR, unfortunately - SRR attempts to improve this.

Detect Invisibility:

"When a wizard casts a Detect Invisibility spell, they become able to see clearly any objects or beings that are invisible, as well as any creatures that are astral, ethereal, or out of phase. Instantly and at the end of each round for 5 rounds after the spell is cast, all concealed enemies within sight of the caster will become visible to the caster and their allies. Invisible objects carried into the warded area will also become visible. Creatures affected by improved invisibility will be revealed to the party, but can only be directly targetable with spellcasting by the caster of this spell. This spell does not reveal illusions or enable the caster to see through physical objects. Magic resistance does not affect this spell."

True Seeing:

"When a True Seeing spell is cast, the wizard gains the ability to see the exact locations of creatures or objects under displacement or invisibility effects, as well as see through illusions. Instantly and at the end of each round for 1 turn after this spell is cast, all concealed enemies within sight of the caster will become visible to the caster and their allies, and minor illusionary spells (including Reflected Image, Blur, and Mirror Image) cast by opponents will be neutralized outright. Creatures affected by improved invisibility will be revealed to the party, but can only be directly targetable with spellcasting by the caster of this spell. Finally, the caster is also cured of and granted immunity to blindness as well as hostile illusion spells such as Spook and Shadow Door for the duration of the spell. Magic resistance does not affect this spell."

Non-Detection:

"By casting this spell, the wizard makes the recipient undetectable by spells such as Detect Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, and True Seeing, though they may still be audible when moving and certain types of creatures may still sense their presence through other means. Furthermore, anti-illusory spells and abilities such as Detect Illusion and Oracle will also have no effect upon the recipient. This spell does not protect the recipient from detection as a result of engaging in overtly hostile actions, though it will continue to protect other types of illusions they have active from being directly dispelled. Note, however, that specific opponents affected with anti-invisibility spells or abilities such as True Seeing will be able to target the recipient with spellcasting through their improved invisibility for as long as such anti-invisibility spells are active. This spell wards the recipient's equipment as well as the creature itself."

@Dispel Magic: My suggestion is to take advantage of targeting. Don't put all your characters in a big blob if you expect to get hit by multiple DMs/RMs. SRR also has an optional, experimental tweak for making Globes of Invulnerability immune to DM/RM if you ever want to experiment with that, but that's sort of an aside at best.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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Ya - a 2nd-level spell lets you target Improved Invisible liches with Spellstrike or whatever.

Dispelling Screen is AoE, no? Theoretically you could have a dedicated caster to keep it up every time it gets knocked down, supporting a main character that is involved in a wizard duel. 

Or just spread your guys out. 

Realistically the problem with Dispel Magic is that its % chance is not tuned very well, and it is just about the only thing in the game that refuses to abide by the rule that things stop scaling at level 20. If it was up to me I would just modify it to max out the effective caster level at 20. So a 30th-level lich would only have a 55% chance to dispel buffs cast by your 19th-level mage. 

Alternatively: under the theory that fun games sometimes give you powerful things with limited use to beat enemies more powerful than you (like The Secret Revealed in SoD), I could see modifying the uber-powerful Protection from Magic scrolls to instead grant protect from Dispel Magic. Only one use each, so you can’t spam Dispel immunity. But you could selectively neutralize that aspect of a couple liches or fiends who like to spam Dispel. 

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Hello! I'm a fan of this mod for a long time. For now I'm using 3.1 version (combined with SCS and some other mods). I have just read descriptions of spells in 4 version and wish to share some comments with You.

 

1. The 4 version of this mod is something what I will probably never install. Without offence - I do not think those new changes are bad, but they come too far for me. I prefer mods, which only tweak a bit vanilla ruleset instead of changing it completely. I'm a bit worried about Author's attachment to AD&D sources. AD&D is not a perfect system so I see no reason to keep too close to this materials (not even mention differences between PnP and PC environments).

I am not saying all above to discredit this mod but only to highlight philosophical differences between 3. and 4. line. Version 3.1 is much closer to the original, it does not change function of most spells but (mostly) only numerical values.

So my request is to keep 3.1 version as a separate download, even after official release of 4.0. In my opinion they should exist separately, maybe under different titles or sub-titles (“Spell Revision 1 – light” and “Spell Revision 2 – advanced” or something like that). Maybe there are more players who, like me, prefer less radical changes in spell system.

 

2. This new spell system comes too far (in my opinion) on a way of "balance". 4 version rules seem similar in style to Pillars of Eternity which is (again - in my opinion) against BG principals.

Why Baldur's Gate system is so cool? Because it is not balanced! There are extremely powerful spells, which are very danger to us in hands of our enemies and which are great to use as a player. There is a feel of power absent in any other game. In the same time Pillars of Eternity is quite boring game - and one of reasons is "balance". Nothing could be too powerful, almost everything (class, spell) have to be equal to each other and similar to each other. I find it not very interesting. And SR4 system is quite similar (at least on paper).

Example: penalties to saving throws were clearly reduced (in comparison to SR3). Because of that many cool effects will be almost useless against more powerful enemies (or against some of our heroes: in SR4 environment dwarf/gnome with good constitution score and some ST bonuses from items could be a bit too resistant). In BG philosophy saving throws make secondary role, the most important thing were immunities (from spells and items). It's why those battles were so exciting: you have to carefully monitor immunities on your characters (which could have short durations or be easy to dispel) or you are dead; you really couldn't count on saving throws to save you from serious effects. In SR4 this is only partially true. Also you could have hoped (in vanilla), that almost every spell could work on every enemy (who is not resistant to effect), especially after reducing his saving throws.

So in my opinion it is good to improve some weak spells (it's why I love SR3 so much - it gives many more tools to us) but I'm - in general - against serious nerfs (as, for example – SR4 versions of Confusion with much reduced duration).

3. Now some random comments about specific spells:

·         Armor of Faith. SR3 version is perfect for me: non-cumulative, short casting time, short duration (1 turn), quite useful bonus (20% melee resistance). It’s very useful (especially in hands of fighter-cleric), it could be truly great (ex. in combo with Defender of Easthaven) but it’s not over-powered. You cannot – for example – pre-buff with it too much because of its short duration.
In general: in my opinion buffs with short duration should have short casting time and vice versa; buffs with long duration should have longer casting time. Another good example of such spell in SR3 is Defensive Harmony: you are (mostly) using it in a heat of battle and its effect is visible. On the other hand Strength of One (in SR3) has too weak effect and too short duration in comparison to casting time (1 turn duration, casting time: 3). It’s too risky to use it during battles (for relatively small gain – attribute bonuses are not so important).

Armor of Faith in SR4 is (for me) much less interesting spell than in SR3. 10% reduction is hard to notice, 5 turn duration is quite long. So You have changed cool, useful spell which you have carefully use during battle into boring, small, meaningless pre-buff (I do not use IR so I do not know how they work together; but SR and IR are separate mods so they should base on vanilla content – and there are not many options to increase physical resistances in the base game). I am strongly against making spell effects almost meaningless because of “balance”. SR4 version of Armor of Faith is so weak that I would probably just ignore it during my gameplay.

·         Doom spell (from SR3, no changes in SR4?) is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen in this mod. The main function of this spell (asides from very low levels) is to reduce saving throws of one enemy, so allowing saving throw against this spell is nonsensical. It is especially painful when you realize that Greater Malison is nerfed and non-cumulative. In vanilla game you could just re-cast Greater Malison x times (which was quite lame), but in SR3 it is no longer an option (which is good). But because of that all other spells which could reduce enemies saving throws are crucially important. So, in my opinion, Doom spell should not allow a saving throw (as in the vanilla game – it’s enough to make it non-cumulative). You still would have to use TWO spells (Greater Malison + Doom) to reduce saving throws of ONE enemy by 4; it would be much more balanced than in vanilla BG, but not in un-funny way (it is always cool to look for spell combos).

EDIT: My mistake, Greater Malison was never cumulative. I have not play vanilla BG for ages. But still vanilla Greater Malison is 2x stronger then in SR + Doom is cumulative.

·         Know Opponent. I’m only mentioning this spell to say that it is one of best ideas of SR mod. It’s useful spell (2. level clerical spells are mostly useless), it’s unique (it’s – I think? – the only way in the game to reduce enemies physical resistances), it allows no saving throw. Great stuff.

·         Draw upon Divine Might – one of the worst spells in the game (as in SR3). Short duration + fatigue effect make it totally pointless. During easy-medium fights its not worth to bother with some attribute boost. During long and hard fights it is also not worth to use (your short gain in stats is comparable to your loss in battle performance after that). Fatigue penalty is reasonable in case of especially powerful spells (as Haste), but not in this case. Speaking of Haste – SR3 version is good enough. It’s similar to over-powered vanilla spell but with serious penalty after its short duration. Thanks to this I’m no longer start every harder fight from this spell; instead I’m waiting for a good moment for a maximum gain and minimal loss in battle performance (ex. I’m casting it after breaking through enemies protections). Making this spell one-target only is (for me) too deep change in BG systems. It’s also making all spells “flat”, too similar in power to each other. Hast (in SR3) is uniquely powerful, and it is good. Magic should be a bit unpredictable. Make everything systematically similar and you will receive a boring Excel-depended system in a style of Pillars of Eternity or D&D4.

·         Chant. Should have longer duration. It’s quite weak spell, +1/-1 modifiers are not very important. It is something which fighter-cleric will never cast (because it’s more profitable to just hit enemies with hammer); even pure cleric will cast it only after casting almost everything else. The only justification of this spell is a penalty to saving throws.

·         Fire Trap. Removal of saving throw penalty make this spell almost useless after BG1. Reduction of casting time is unnecessary (it’s – after all – a “trap” spell).

·         Summon insects. Both changes (removal of fear effect, reduction of casting time) are not necessary. The unique feature of many druidic spells (all “insect” line spells, Call Lightning) should be extremely powerful effect combined with extremely long casting time. It’s one of reasons why druid in vanilla (and SR3) is so different in playstyle in comparison to cleric and wizard. The idea of saving throw in every turn was quite ok (in some cases it is an advantage, in others – disadvantage; another unique feature, most spells allow only initial saving throw). SR3 version is cool and unique, SR4 makes the spell – again – too similar to every other spells on this level. It is truly great to have something more powerful then usual but also much harder to cast. Normally full round casting times are something which belongs to 7-9 spell levels.

·         Grease. Bonus to saving throws make this spell pointless in BG2 (an even in a second half of BG1). It really was not so over-power in SR3 (short range, small area, not-party-friendly). I see no reason to change it. I also can’t see a reason to change the Web spell.

·         Holy Smite. One again – the change (party-friendly) is, in my opinion, not necessary. The spell was unique because it COULD be party-friendly (in a good-neutral party) so it was a small bonus for role-playing way of composing our group (instead of just taking Viconia/Korgan/Edwin to every party because they have best battle skills). For now you have to be a bit carful with using it (for example taking look for Korgan position). One of my favorite summoning spells in SR3 is Summon Shadow – those shadows are evil so I have to cast Holy Smite cautiously to not harm them; it is “realistic” and add a small tactical aspect to usage of those two spells. And it invokes my memories from some of my PnP adventures, when NG cleric was in conflict with LE necromancer and both of them sometimes “accidentally” harmed each other (I remember a dramatic battle when the cleric – this time truly accidentally – turned half of our necromancers summons and we had a lot of troubles 😊).

·         Domination. Even without nerf it’s not a great spell (on this level).

·         Death Spell. It’s one of the hallmarks of BG2, please – do not touch it. When you are on lower levels it makes high-level enemy wizards truly frightening (as it should be). And when we finally gain access to it it’s a great way to clean trash fights (and feel like a true arch-mage) without harming crucial battles.

·         Disintegrate. Again, I see no reasons in nerfing this spell (-5 save penalty is ok). High level spells SHOULD BE VERY STRONG. Take into account a wizards spell table: by logic (and as in D&D3) 6. level spells should be accessible at 11 level of character; they are not, it is a special delay because of a huge gap in power between 5th and 6th level spells. It’s a difference between very good mage and arch-mage. It’s also no reason to limiting save penalty to -4 (especially that SR already hugely limits possibilities of de-buffing enemies saving throws). And we have a Death Ward to protect ourselves. In case of strong enemies: a lot of them are resistant to sudden death anyway.
Some damage to golems is a good idea.

·         Improved Haste. Mostly as above – it’s fine as it is. Great for warriors (and also for dual-wielding rogues), not great for anyone else, which is good.

·         Finger of Death. Again – the same thing as in Death Spell and Disintegrate. You should not count on a saving throw in confrontation witch such high-level spells, Death Ward is your way to go. -6 penalty is ok, almost mandatory for such high-level, single-target spell. It’s still something which player will only cast for fun because area-of-effect spells, especially status effects, are more useful in most hard situations. Yes, when you are facing high-level wizards without possibility of protect every member of your party by Death Ward – you have a problem. But you should have. It force you to – for example – use in the beginning of battle only 2-3 of your characters (+ some summons) and hide everyone else in a separated room (until the enemy fires his most dangerous spells). It’s also cool to be forced to use only some of your companions.

·         Wail of the Banshe. And again the same. But even more: 9th level spell with -2 penalty is a bad joke (the original spell without save penalty was a single worst spell of 9th level). Even BG1 character have a good chance to resist (9th level dwarf fighter with 18 constitution without any equipment has 75% to resist this spell!!! 7th level naked paladin has 50% chance to survive. It’s ridiculous!)
So my suggestion would be to: keep -6 save penalty AND add some additional effect (deafness without saving throw). But as a high-level spells should also be dangerous I suggest to make it not-party-friendly (only the caster is safe). It could provoke some interesting tactics (like protecting all of your party members by Death Ward against YOUR OWN spell or sending alone caster against a group of enemies, when everyone else are waiting far away.)

 

I hope You, Dear Author, won’t not take this critique too personally. I love Your work and I thank You for that. I’m also aware that I have not as much knowledge about BG systems as You. I also understand that current state of SR4 is a product of long community discussion which weights more than my single opinion. However I believe that You will find something interesting for You in this (probably too long) post. BG is very special game, in my opinion still better in many ways then most of the modern RPGs. So it will be unfortunate to change it into Pillars of Eternity or D&D4 clone.

Best wishes to You and all Your kin,

Kliwer.

Edited by Kliwer
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3 hours ago, DavidW said:

It wasn’t trolling, was it? ...or am I missing a joke?

Yeah, I know they weren’t overtly trolling, but comparing the difference between SRv3 and SRv4 to the difference between BG2 and PoE is so ridiculously hyperbolic that it comes close...

Realistically, as I say the feedback is good. The bigger issue is that v3 and v4 are about 12 years old and 8 years old, respectively, and there is not likely going to be a v5 to consider and/or implement such suggestions.

Edited by subtledoctor
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"Dispel Magic Fix (may be used with or without the main component)
This patch fixes the chance to dispel magic to match the spell's description (so there is at least a marginal chance of dispelling effects of a higher-level mage) and corrects conceptual problems caused by the automatic dispelling of all magically created items. More info about its outrageous old behaviour can be found here."

I'm unsure of the differences between EE and vanilla implementation of the spell, or whether SR would install a terrible version of this spell if you *don't* install this component on an EE game, etc.

(e): This is not the right thread.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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@Mike1072
You probably copied the 3.5 incendiary cloud description into the SR's version.  I mention this since Darkvision probably isn't in BG, but Infravision is.

[sblock=SR's Incendiary Cloud]An Incendiary Cloud spell creates a cloud of roiling smoke and roaring flame. The smoke obscures all sight beyond 15 feet, including darkvision. Creatures within the area suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls and armor class. In addition, the flames deal 4d6 points of fire damage each round to everything within the cloud, with a saving throw vs. breath at -4 allowed for half damage. Fire dwellers like fire elementals, fire giants, and salamanders are immune to the effects of this spell.[/sblock]

I was also concerned that SR's incendiary cloud did too little damage.  In BGIIEE, I learned this spell in vanilla, which is meant to do d4 fire damage per caster level, and it rarely did anything due to things being so resistant or immune to fire.  (I'm unsure if this was a vanilla bug, but I was disappoint!)  As for how to balance this, I'm unsure.  It's a level 8 spell and competing with horrid wilting.  Perhaps boosting damage or/and slowing foes would make it worthwhile.  Maybe it's already balanced and I don't know it yet.  (I'm unsure what Spell Revisions Revised did with incendiary.)

What say you?

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It wasn't me, but Demi was fond of incorporating descriptions and ideas from 3.5.

I'll replace the reference to darkvision with infravision.

Edited by Mike1072
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@Mike1072
Shapechange request: Also allow turning into polymorph self forms.  Also, why can't Great Wolfwere and Troll forms cast when Troll Shamen exist, and Wolfweres seemingly have Human-like speech and hands?

Polymorph self request: Allow Flinds (Gnolls) and Ogres to cast spells.  Ogre Mages/Ogre Magi exist, and each of these forms is Humanoidal enough to speak and use Human-like hands.  I can understand why spiders and wolves and golems couldn't use spells, but why not these guys?

If casting in these other forms would be too much to grant to everyone, add casting to them as a toggle.

What say you?

Thankee!

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@Mike1072
May Druids get Air Elemental Transformation and Water Elemental Transformation as HLAs since they already have Fire and Earth versions?  These creature models exist in-game, and Water Elementals can be made mobile/ambulatory through scripting.

Likewise, why is there no option to summon a Water Elemental Prince via the Elemental Prince Call HLA?

Edited by Endarire
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I've always wanted an Air Elemental Transformation ability as well, but no icons for it + I never wanted to figure out how to add brand new HLAs made it a difficult task. Water elementals virtually don't exist in the BG series and there aren't water elemental summoning spells, so I didn't feel the same way about those.

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@Endarire My priority with SR is general maintenance: resolving bugs and compatibility issues.  If the community agrees on some new content or design changes, and they code it up, I can incorporate it, but I won't be doing that myself.  (And you wouldn't want me to.  Design is not my strong suit.)

Your best bet for now would be to direct those sorts of ideas to @Bartimaeus for SRR or wait and see if @kreso or @Demivrgvs come back some day.

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3 hours ago, Endarire said:

@Mike1072
May Druids get Air Elemental Transformation and Water Elemental Transformation as HLAs since they already have Fire and Earth versions?  These creature models exist in-game, and Water Elementals can be made mobile/ambulatory through scripting.

Likewise, why is there no option to summon a Water Elemental Prince via the Elemental Prince Call HLA?

 

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I've always wanted an Air Elemental Transformation ability as well, but no icons for it + I never wanted to figure out how to add brand new HLAs made it a difficult task. Water elementals virtually don't exist in the BG series and there aren't water elemental summoning spells, so I didn't feel the same way about those.

Refinements has had this stuff for 15 years.

Also, Faiths & Powers has water elemental summoning spells coded up by Grammarsalad, and HLAs for all four elements which are borrowed from Refinements.

IWDification and SCS' IWD spells both add water elemental summoning spells at pre-HLA levels as well.

Finally, Demi was always very intent that HLAs would be handled by KR, not SR.  (Not that KR is happening anymore... but just saying that SR's conspicuous lack of HLAs was a design decision, not an oversight.*)

* (Pun intended!)

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1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

 water elemental summoning spells

Summoning spells are a bit different from polymorphs. Hmm, you will want to be reminded to not use the water_weird(mwwe*.bam files aka tentacle), but the actual elemental(melw*.bam files aka bobbleman) that's only in IWD.

1)

wate1.jpg

2)

wate2.jpg

 

 

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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