Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

Nice to see you back, even if it's only for a break! :)Don't you think that a non-stackable higher % spell failure (I proposed 50% with a save) would work better? Nice idea making it scale with lvls, but I think 10% spell failure isn't much useful (if you can hit a mage 2-3 times he's already dead), and later on 30% on each hit with no save can actually be OP considering only PfMW-like spells can prevent it.

Well, this is one of those things that's kind of hard to balance out withot practical tests. ... It's been a few years since I tested this in-game, but I think it worked out pretty well in the end. One thing to note here, spell failure goes through Stoneskin, and normal weapons go through PfMW.

I know, that actually reinforces my fear of it being OP. A cumulative 20-30% spell failure on each hit and with no save means that 1-2 hits against a stoneskinned mage pretty much doom him/her. I'm following Thailog's No Reload Game (who's ironically using a Wizard Slayer) and even within the latest SCS quite a lot of mages still use PfMW instead of Mantle, making them very vulnerable. Even a "boss" like Lavok is pretty much trivialized by vanilla's WS due to spell failure not having a save and bypassing Stoneskin.

 

Anyway, you are indeed right, playtesting is the only way to know that for sure, and it may be said that obliterating mages is what WS are supposed to do best. Perhaps I'm too much worried...

 

We discussed this, and in theory I loved the concept of a "Breach on hit" effect, but PfMW-like spells block it. The spells against which you'd like to use it the most actually protect from it.

I agree, but IMO, it just seems more fitting for the Wizard Slayer to have on-hit effect which does this rather than a spell-like ability. As noted above, there's always normal weapons for PfMW-ed enemies.

I don't want WS to have spell-like abilities too (though some abilities may be considered innate instead of magical, just like HLAs), I was just saying that its usability/effectiveness is rather limited. Again, I know normal weapons bypass PfMW but it reinforces my statement that if a WS can hit a mage (e.g. with a normal weapon vs PfMW) his/her Disrupt Magic ability is more than enough to nullify the mage bypassing Stoneskin, thus his ability to remove Stoneskin is relatively redundant (though it still has some limited use).

 

Speaking instead of its implementation...how did you managed to make it remove a single protection? Afaik opcode 221 doesn't allow that, all protections are removed at once.

Hmm, it's been a while since I made that, I've forgotten how I did it off hand. Let me check the files... *dusts off Near Infinity*... it seems that I used opcode #230 in order to achieve this.

Ohh, how have I missed that for all this time? Thanks!

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I know, that actually reinforces my fear of it being OP. A cumulative 20-30% spell failure on each hit and with no save means that 1-2 hits against a stoneskinned mage pretty much doom him/her.

 

Another thing to note here is the duration of the spell failure. In the unmodded game, it's was just too long which made it fairly exploitable.

 

In my mod, I've reduced it to 3 rounds which should give mages a chance to recover, especially if they use a contingency/sequencer/trigger (these are not subject to spell failure) to renew their protections and/or turn invisible (can be done via potion) and run away until it expires.

[Demivrgvs]

Disrupt Magic

I know, that actually reinforces my fear of it being OP. A cumulative 20-30% spell failure on each hit and with no save means that 1-2 hits against a stoneskinned mage pretty much doom him/her.

Another thing to note here is the duration of the spell failure. In the unmodded game, it's was just too long which made it fairly exploitable.

 

In my mod, I've reduced it to 3 rounds which should give mages a chance to recover, especially if they use a contingency/sequencer/trigger (these are not subject to spell failure) to renew their protections and/or turn invisible (can be done via potion) and run away until it expires.

Mmm...is the AI is really able to counter it like you say? I can hardly believe most mages have potions or scrolls to deal with such an underused class. They surely could handle it like you say if scripted to do so, but they surely they don't in a unmodded game (vanilla's AI almost never use potions and scrolls) and I'm not sure SCS AI does. Is this one of those cases where RR's AI has some of those nice superior refinements like being able to handle PfMW switching to normal weapons?

 

Anyway, regarding Disrupt Magic's duration I was ginving for granted its duration shouldn't last more than a bunch of rounds. Too bad Thailog didn't started his game with your mod to give us some feedback!

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Mmm...is the AI is really able to counter it like you say? I can hardly believe most mages have potions or scrolls to deal with such an underused class. They surely could handle it like you say if scripted to do so, but they surely they don't in a unmodded game (vanilla's AI almost never use potions and scrolls) and I'm not sure SCS AI does. Is this one of those cases where RR's AI has some of those nice superior refinements like being able to handle PfMW switching to normal weapons?

 

Well, RR's AI can adapt itself to several possible combat scenarios. One of those includes switching between normal and magic weapons when they see a party member under PfMW., as you have noted.

 

Another one enables RR spellcasters to detect when they are afflicted by spell failure and switch to using alternate tactics (i.e. sequencers, triggers, contingencies, potions, wands etc.). This is actually rather simple to accomplish in scripting terms, so theoretically, the SCSII AI should be able to do the same with ease. It mostly depends on how David chose to handle it.

[Dakk]

(OT, but it's great to see aVENGER discussing the ins and outs of IE-modding )

[Guest Stafon]

With the bases loaded you struck us out with that awsenr!

[polytope]

Avenger's revised Wizard Slayer looks good

 

I think the most balanced solution would be to reduce the WS casting failure on hit to 10%, duration remains at 5 rounds (note, there is an unused spcl132 which lasts for 15 rounds but spcl132.eff lasts only 5). In exchange the WS item restrictions - which never made sense - should go.

 

More appropriate limitations for a WS would be restricted profficiency in heavy armor, anti-cavalry weapons like halberds and anti-armor weapons like flails since they don't fit this warrior's purpose.

 

The kit's magic resistance is just a weaker version of the monk, I'd prefer to add something like a bonus to save vs spells.

[yarpen]

For purpose of testing IR3, I've made custom Wizard Slayer kit based on things already told in this topic. It goes like this:

 

Advantages:

- For each successful hit (melee or ranged) on an opponent, 10% cumulative spell failure penalty is applied.

- At 7th level, the wizard slayer gains a 5% resistance to magic. At 11th, 15th, and 19th level, this increases by an additional 5%.

- At 10th level can cast True Sight once per day. At 19th level can cast it twice per day.

 

Disadvantages:

- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.

 

After some testing:

- Magic Resistance doesn't work for me. I'm at 7th level and well, even stupid Charm hits my character hard. I'd say we need to start with something bigger. 10% at 1st level then +1%/level?

- SCS charm-hold is stupidly good. It always works on my main char so I can't even hit those wizards when my protagonist starts to hit my party members (oh god noeeh Aeeerieeee!). I'd suggest bonus to saves vs. spells or just Immunity to charm and hold. It's just stupid that wizards can disable WS easier than well, anyone else. Even Minsc stands some chances.

- Limitation for specialisation hurts a lot. My character doesn't have paladin's buff, ranger's hide in sight or dual-welding, so he usually doesn't do much on the battlefield. I'd love him to snipe mages but he fails to hit them even when they are unprotected. +3/+3 to thaco/damage against wizzies?

- Why magic disruption can't work on clerics too? Would that be too strong? I don't think so.

- Last but not least - don't make him unable to wield shields. I want that Balduran set, to gain some good MR resitance, okay?

- I made a mistake of giving him access to True Sight at 10th level. I'm on 8th and I'm crying when any mage casts any illusion spell.

 

Funny thing is - IR changes makes WS favourite weapons... Short Sword, small crossbows or even darts. That is a good thing. I want him to be a nimble fighter who's aiming at wizards during combats.

[Ardanis]

- Why magic disruption can't work on clerics too? Would that be too strong? I don't think so.

Because enemy clerics will stand even lesser chance than they already do. Ask DavidW for more in-depth explanation.

[DrAzTiK]

Wizard slayer had always looked pitiable for me. Spell failure on hit cannot be so dangerous considering SCS mages are using Pfmw spells.

 

Magic resistance is almost cosmetic.

Surely this kit shoud deserve somethink more.

 

Can we pass the hand over the hope of a fighter revisions release ? Sound like a personnal request but I would really like to test Demivrgvs new rage ability for bersekers and barbarians. (especially barbarian considering vanilla one sucks a little bit)

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

For purpose of testing IR3, I've made custom Wizard Slayer kit based on things already told in this topic. It goes like this:

 

Advantages:

- For each successful hit (melee or ranged) on an opponent, 10% cumulative spell failure penalty is applied.

- At 7th level, the wizard slayer gains a 5% resistance to magic. At 11th, 15th, and 19th level, this increases by an additional 5%.

- At 10th level can cast True Sight once per day. At 19th level can cast it twice per day.

 

Disadvantages:

- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.

Yeah, the base is pretty much that. The main doubt is about unique his eventual innate ability (I suggested a scaling Detect Illusion instead of TS, though the shadow of a Breach-like attack is always there) but it's not the only thing I'm not 100% sure of.

 

- Magic Resistance doesn't work for me. I'm at 7th level and well, even stupid Charm hits my character hard. I'd say we need to start with something bigger. 10% at 1st level then +1%/level?

Well, its suggested rate clearly imitates Barbarian's physical resistance, and it's not intended to be so outstanding to change the course of every encounter which involves magic. You should see it as small feature that makes WS slightly better than a common warrior when fighting wizards (actually magic users in general), and as the WS grows in power so does his innate resistance to magic, to the point of becoming a huge asset with HLAs (as KR's HLAs will increase his passive mr up to 40-50%).

 

Furthermore, a huge advantage over vanilla WS which I have to take into account is that this WS can use pretty much any item, and that can exponentially increase his magic resistance (even in BG1 he can easily get +20% with Balduran's Cloak & Sword). IR V3 Potion of Magic Resistance is also particularly effective when used by Wizard Slayers.

 

- SCS charm-hold is stupidly good. It always works on my main char so I can't even hit those wizards when my protagonist starts to hit my party members (oh god noeeh Aeeerieeee!). I'd suggest bonus to saves vs. spells or just Immunity to charm and hold. It's just stupid that wizards can disable WS easier than well, anyone else. Even Minsc stands some chances.

Mmm, Occult Slayer PrC (the class which inspired my revision of this class) indeed have similar immunities, but I fear they are slightly outside the domain of the warrior classes imo, as they sound too much as "magical", not to mention they would make this class even more similar to the Inquisitor than it already is.

 

- Limitation for specialisation hurts a lot. My character doesn't have paladin's buff, ranger's hide in sight or dual-welding, so he usually doesn't do much on the battlefield. I'd love him to snipe mages but he fails to hit them even when they are unprotected. +3/+3 to thaco/damage against wizzies?

Eh? A true class warrior has problems hitting a mage's AC? Even thieves don't have problems with ranged weapons in my games...are you sure? What you say would imply even a Barbarian can't hit an unbuffed mage unless he enrages!

 

Btw, I do thought about extra damage but:

* +x to hit/dmg vs creature/class type don't stack, thus it could not work in case any mod added item uses a similar effect

* if a WS is able to hit a mage 1-2 times the target is pretty much doomed because of WS's Spell Disruption and mage's low hit points

 

- Why magic disruption can't work on clerics too? Would that be too strong? I don't think so.

As Ardanis says it's a balance reason, as clerics cannot protect themselves from such a powerful effect like mages do, but there's also a conceptual reason, as we are talking about Wizard Slayer.

 

- Last but not least - don't make him unable to wield shields. I want that Balduran set, to gain some good MR resitance, okay?

Ahahaah, I was thinking the same when working on that shield. Anyway, I do need some drawbacks to justify all the advantages (spell disruption, magic resistance, detect illusion, etc.).

 

- I made a mistake of giving him access to True Sight at 10th level. I'm on 8th and I'm crying when any mage casts any illusion spell.

That's why I suggested a scaling Detect Illusion spell instead, so we could assign it early on, even at 1st lvl if needed.

 

Funny thing is - IR changes makes WS favourite weapons... Short Sword, small crossbows or even darts. That is a good thing. I want him to be a nimble fighter who's aiming at wizards during combats.

Short Swords? The way I see it many weapon types have at least a great specimen for a WS, like Bala's Axe (a dispelling weapon which bypasses PfMW! Yeah!) or Balduran's Bastard Sword (+10% magic resistance on an early game +2 sword), or Mana Bow (magic resistance + destroy illusions on hit) but if I had to choose one I'd say long swords, because Adjatha and Namarra are really amazing in the mid game imo (the latter is the doom of divine spellcasters).

 

Can we pass the hand over the hope of a fighter revisions release ? Sound like a personnal request but I would really like to test Demivrgvs new rage ability for bersekers and barbarians. (especially barbarian considering vanilla one sucks a little bit)

Indeed, I'll try to find some time to check the files and release them as a sort of mini-mod. Berserker and Barbarian were surely 100% ready, not sure about the true Fighter because I was working on stances back then, and WS was the one giving me the headache.

 

Speaking of which, my biggest doubt is about granting them a sort of Breach attack. I planned to make it an HLA, but I really don't know if I should instead use a toned down version and grant it early on. The latter solution I wanted to try is to make it work as a touch-like innate (necessary to make it work against PfMW-like spells), but forcing an attack animation upon it to make it look like a normal attack with your weapon. Granting it a save would probably be a must to keep such a game-changing ability balanced, especially considering this Breaching Blow would not be affected by Spell Deflection or similar spells (being it a melee attack and not a spell).

 

BUT, even assuming we want to grant this kit a Breach-like attack early on, I do feel detecting illusions is almost as important as that, even more within BG1 and the early game where MI, Blur and II are going to be WS main enemies and not a 6th lvl spell like PfMW. Long story short,is it fine to have two unique abilites at once on a warrior class? Would it look too much like a semi-spellcaster (e.g. Inquisitor)?

[Kalindor]

Speaking of which, my biggest doubt is about granting them a sort of Breach attack. I planned to make it an HLA, but I really don't know if I should instead use a toned down version and grant it early on. The latter solution I wanted to try is to make it work as a touch-like innate (necessary to make it work against PfMW-like spells), but forcing an attack animation upon it to make it look like a normal attack with your weapon. Granting it a save would probably be a must to keep such a game-changing ability balanced, especially considering this Breaching Blow would not be affected by Spell Deflection or similar spells (being it a melee attack and not a spell).

 

BUT, even assuming we want to grant this kit a Breach-like attack early on, I do feel detecting illusions is almost as important as that, even more within BG1 and the early game where MI, Blur and II are going to be WS main enemies and not a 6th lvl spell like PfMW. Long story short,is it fine to have two unique abilites at once on a warrior class? Would it look too much like a semi-spellcaster (e.g. Inquisitor)?

 

I am all for this kit having a Breach-like attack as early as possible. If I considered myself a hunter of wizards, it would be rather stupid of me not to bring a countermeasure against their defensive spells. Since this kit is dedicated to killing mages, perhaps give them a full-strength breach and detect illusion with the tradeoff of having a slightly worse AC or THAC0 or something. They haven't put in as much training against physical opponents and should not be as effective against them as other warriors. AC is of little importance when fighting mages.

The idea of having their spell stripping abilities increase with level is a good idea if doable. The wizard slayer also would benefit greatly from a substantial save vs. spells bonus (perhaps as a HLA?).

[Lawlight]

- Last but not least - don't make him unable to wield shields. I want that Balduran set, to gain some good MR resitance, okay? biggrin.gif

 

Ahahaah, I was thinking the same when working on that shield. biggrin.gif Anyway, I do need some drawbacks to justify all the advantages (spell disruption, magic resistance, detect illusion, etc.).

 

Why would a Wizard Slayer train in using shields anyway? I really like this drawback, because it fits their background very well.

[Pacek]

Wizard Slayer: How about a permanent passive aura-like ability that emulates thief's detect illusions.

[Demivrgvs]

I am all for this kit having a Breach-like attack as early as possible. If I considered myself a hunter of wizards, it would be rather stupid of me not to bring a countermeasure against their defensive spells.

Yeah, though "as early as possible" is not before 10th lvl imo. Slayers are not going to need Breach until they fight L12 mages and their PfMW (slightly earlier they could use it against Stoneskin, but their Spell Disruption efgect bypasses it making stoneskinned mages very vulnerable to WS anyway) while until then they do need something against all those illusions (SCS now uses SR's Reflected Image, and old favourites like Mirror Image, Blur, Improved Invisibility are still very popular). Not to mention detect illusion is a PnP feature of this AD&D class (see here), thus one more reason to kee it imo.

 

Since this kit is dedicated to killing mages, perhaps give them a full-strength breach and detect illusion with the tradeoff of having a slightly worse AC or THAC0 or something. They haven't put in as much training against physical opponents and should not be as effective against them as other warriors. AC is of little importance when fighting mages.

I have limited them to specialization (++) and no shields (less AC), which is pretty much what you're suggesting. That being said, their Breach-like attack absolutely needs something to balance it off (either it allows a save or a hit roll - unless we let Spell shield block it, but it doesn't make sense imo) because I don't want mages to be dead men walking whenever a WS is in the party, and an unstoppable breach followed by spell disruption is pretty much a sure sentence of death.

 

The idea of having their spell stripping abilities increase with level is a good idea if doable. The wizard slayer also would benefit greatly from a substantial save vs. spells bonus (perhaps as a HLA?).

I thought about it, but they correctly pointed out to me it kinda overlaps with magic resistance. I could see a sort of Mind Shield-like effect being fine as HLA, but WS already have a bunch of HLA candidates nyway (increased magic resistance, spell reflection, etc.).

 

Why would a Wizard Slayer train in using shields anyway? I really like this drawback, because it fits their background very well.

Yeah, I'm pretty much stuck with this drawback anyway, because I don't see anything else more suited than this, and I do need one considering that otherwise slayers would be too much superior to true fighters until they get mastery (+++) in a weapon at 3rd lvl. Until then, WS has not a single drawback in effect and gets free Spell Disruption and Detect Illusions abilities.

 

Wizard Slayer: How about a permanent passive aura-like ability that emulates thief's detect illusions.

Because as a passive ability it would either be overpowered or too weak. Thieves need to concentrate, doing nothing else than detecting, and they need to invest tons of skill points to raise the % chance to detect each round. WS need to at least spend few seconds to detect imo.