Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[lynx]

A suggestion for a downside. Give *them* a progressive miscast magic bonus. I'm not sure if any item abilities would be affected though and you've already made them inable to dualclass to mages.

[Demivrgvs]

A suggestion for a downside. Give *them* a progressive miscast magic bonus. I'm not sure if any item abilities would be affected though and you've already made them inable to dualclass to mages.

Isn't this simply an alterantive way to make them not viable as dual/multi-class spellcasters?

 

Btw, I've tracked back all those old KR files which were taking dust in an old install of mine, packaged them, and worked mostly on Wizard Slayer to complete at least the five fighter classes. I'll need Ardanis for a couple of things, but I've done pretty much everything.

 

The only real problem is implementing my suggested Breaching Blow ability. I've managed to make it look really good (using opcode 138 and forcing an overhead attack animation instead of casting animation) but I have two problems to handle now:

a) spell's effects take place either too soon (no delay) or too late (1 sec delay) compared to the animation

b) everything looks great as long as the WS is using a melee weapon, but if he wields a ranged weapon he'll go straight to the target and play the "fire" animation as if it was shooting an arrow/bolt at point blank

 

Whiel a) could be fixable making it use an invisible 1 target projectile, and tweaking projectile's speed, I reall have no idea how I could ever handle b).

[Pacek]

You know, I always imagined wizard slayers as kind of sadistic loners, who only gained enjoyment from seeing magic users suffer. Like the kid who never got invited to the magic party, so went away and learned how to wield a sword instead. What I think would make the kit cool and unique is not to make them the bane of wizards, but rather have them draw strength somehow from the slaying of their dedicated enemy. How to achieve this I'm not sure, but how about an xp bonus for starters? At the very least, heighten morale for every mage killed... I guess I need to think on this some more...

[Kalindor]

Slayers are not going to need Breach until they fight L12 mages and their PfMW (slightly earlier they could use it against Stoneskin, but their Spell Disruption efgect bypasses it making stoneskinned mages very vulnerable to WS anyway) while until then they do need something against all those illusions (SCS now uses SR's Reflected Image, and old favourites like Mirror Image, Blur, Improved Invisibility are still very popular).

 

Good points.

 

That being said, their Breach-like attack absolutely needs something to balance it off (either it allows a save or a hit roll - unless we let Spell shield block it, but it doesn't make sense imo) because I don't want mages to be dead men walking whenever a WS is in the party, and an unstoppable breach followed by spell disruption is pretty much a sure sentence of death.

 

Make sure they gain multiple uses of it at higher levels then. Otherwise, two unfortunate scenarios could unfold:

a) Breach fails once and WS has no hope of victory.

b) Breach succeeds, contingency activates, WS has no hope of victory.

 

Okay, maybe "no hope of victory" is a little harsh, but you get the idea.

 

**Edit: I vote for a hit-roll option instead of a saving throw unless the penalty increases with WS level.

 

The only real problem is implementing my suggested Breaching Blow ability. I've managed to make it look really good (using opcode 138 and forcing an overhead attack animation instead of casting animation) but I have two problems to handle now:

a) spell's effects take place either too soon (no delay) or too late (1 sec delay) compared to the animation rant.gif

b) everything looks great as long as the WS is using a melee weapon, but if he wields a ranged weapon he'll go straight to the target and play the "fire" animation as if it was shooting an arrow/bolt at point blank crazyeyes.gif

 

Well, you could make it generate a one-shot magical weapon like shocking grasp. This is less elegant than your proposal, perhaps, but it has the possibility of adding additional on-hit effects with WS level if desired.

[polytope]

You know, I always imagined wizard slayers as kind of sadistic loners, who only gained enjoyment from seeing magic users suffer. Like the kid who never got invited to the magic party, so went away and learned how to wield a sword instead. What I think would make the kit cool and unique is not to make them the bane of wizards, but rather have them draw strength somehow from the slaying of their dedicated enemy. How to achieve this I'm not sure, but how about an xp bonus for starters? At the very least, heighten morale for every mage killed... I guess I need to think on this some more...

Strange to say, the original concept of the Wizard Slayer required them to be good alligned, being the only line of defense for tribespeople against evil magic users.

 

The xp bonus for killing mages is (probably) implementable by .eff targetting dead creatures - that would also include (with SCS anyway) dragons and demons.

 

This kit in AD&D was also limited not to receive benefits from wizard's spells, possibly make them "immune" to arcane buffs like haste, but that would require some more advantages to counter balance it. They also got "spirit arrows", which would ignore magical protections - possibly a good implementation of Demivrgvs "breaching blow" at range.

[Ardanis]

This kit in AD&D was also limited not to receive benefits from wizard's spells, possibly make them "immune" to arcane buffs like haste, but that would require some more advantages to counter balance it.

I doubt anyone would play a kit immune to selection of vital buffs.

 

The obvious counter advantage is the immunity to equal selection of debuffs... which is already implemented via MR. Getting to decide which spells WS should be offended by and which not is a poor task too imo, one step down a slippery slope.

 

Lastly the end result would stand out too much as "modded". Although the same can be said about original.

 

The xp bonus for killing mages is (probably) implementable by .eff targetting dead creatures - that would also include (with SCS anyway) dragons and demons.

Don't like it.

 

That being said, their Breach-like attack absolutely needs something to balance it off (either it allows a save or a hit roll - unless we let Spell shield block it, but it doesn't make sense imo) because I don't want mages to be dead men walking whenever a WS is in the party, and an unstoppable breach followed by spell disruption is pretty much a sure sentence of death.

Make sure they gain multiple uses of it at higher levels then. Otherwise, two unfortunate scenarios could unfold:

a) Breach fails once and WS has no hope of victory.

b) Breach succeeds, contingency activates, WS has no hope of victory.

 

Okay, maybe "no hope of victory" is a little harsh, but you get the idea.

 

**Edit: I vote for a hit-roll option instead of a saving throw unless the penalty increases with WS level.

Demi and I had quite a debate over what's better - spell-like innate or on-hit effect.

The problem with on-hit is that it removes only Stoneskin, Protection from Missiles, Mantle, PF(M|N)W and Absolute Immunity. Of which only the first two can be overcome with weapons, and depending on game installation Mantles are either useless (vanilla) or almost as hard to bypass as PFMW is (IR + SR/SCS).

[Demivrgvs]

WS Breach

Make sure they gain multiple uses of it at higher levels then. Otherwise, two unfortunate scenarios could unfold:

a) Breach fails once and WS has no hope of victory.

b) Breach succeeds, contingency activates, WS has no hope of victory.

 

Okay, maybe "no hope of victory" is a little harsh, but you get the idea.

Yeah, but at the same time I don't want to allow the opposite by granting WS tons of Breach-like effects per encounter. In that case "WS has no no hope of victory" (which surely isn't true considering WS magic resistance and fighter's good saves) would become "mages have absolutely no hope of surviving", because once breached they really have "no hope" against a WS (thay cannot even go invisible, cast illusionary protections or Stoneskin to gain time because WS can counter or bypass those too).

 

I think the lesser of the two evils is granting mages a chance to survive, rather than making WS unstoppable, especially considering players never have to face a WS (I hope we'll change this sooner or later within a Revisions mod), and a charname WS surely has plenty of other ways to survive that encounter (e.g. IR V3 items, potions, scrolls, etc.). Am I wrong?

 

**Edit: I vote for a hit-roll option instead of a saving throw unless the penalty increases with WS level.

The problem with on-hit is that it removes only Stoneskin, Protection from Missiles, Mantle, PF(M|N)W and Absolute Immunity. Of which only the first two can be overcome with weapons, and depending on game installation Mantles are either useless (vanilla) or almost as hard to bypass as PFMW is (IR + SR/SCS).

Actually an on-hit version wouldn't work on Absolute Immunity if either IR or SR are installed (the former removes +6 weapons, the latter makes the spell grant immunty even to vanilla +6 weapons), and to bypass SR/SCS Mantle or Improved Mantle a WS would need a +4 and +5 weapon respectively (both incredibly rare within IR).

 

An on-hit version (much like aVENGER did for his own WS revision) would more or less matter only against Stoneskin, ProMissile and ProNormalWeapons (which matters only if SR V4 makes it a decent spell because the AI never uses it right now). Later on (when you get your hands on +4/+5 weapons) it could matter against mantles too, but if you have weapons to bypass mantles then you don't need to cast Breach on the first place imo (especially considering WS's Spell Disruption which will destroy target mage with a 2-3 hits) unless you desperately need to hit him with multiple party members.

 

In the end, I do think an on-hit version of Breach has almost zero appeal, and wouldn't even end up working as you'd expect it to work (a Breach effect which doesn't breach PfMW and Absolute immunity isn't a Breach effect imo). Don't you agree?

 

Well, you could make it generate a one-shot magical weapon like shocking grasp. This is less elegant than your proposal, perhaps, but it has the possibility of adding additional on-hit effects with WS level if desired.

We thought about this too. Technically, it would work better, but conceptually I really don't like it. We are talking about a FIGHTER class, his ability shouldn't include things such as creating a magical weapon in his hands to replace his current one. Am I too strict?

[polytope]

This kit in AD&D was also limited not to receive benefits from wizard's spells, possibly make them "immune" to arcane buffs like haste, but that would require some more advantages to counter balance it.

I doubt anyone would play a kit immune to selection of vital buffs.

 

The obvious counter advantage is the immunity to equal selection of debuffs... which is already implemented via MR. Getting to decide which spells WS should be offended by and which not is a poor task too imo, one step down a slippery slope.

 

Lastly the end result would stand out too much as "modded". Although the same can be said about original.

Well, monks are immune to haste, and hardly unplayable because of this; the only other noteworthy arcane buff for a fighter is protection from magic energy. An (improved) hasted WS with spell failure on hit actually is overpowered.

 

It would be possible to implement a % based chance of a wizard buff failing - equal to the WS magic resistance, but would need to be done by repeating eff or spell, so it can be recalculated per round.

 

The xp bonus for killing mages is (probably) implementable by .eff targetting dead creatures - that would also include (with SCS anyway) dragons and demons.

Don't like it.

On reflection, maybe not. I'm not sure if a (self targetted) % based xp bonus will kick in before the game awards XP - though I've noted there is a small delay between a creature's death and the XP gain notification.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that the kit is looking more and more like an inquisitor, with the detect illusions and dispelling attack... Especially if the WS is limited to specialization in weapons (they are a fighter, after all, and on hit effects like spell failure need good THAC0 and multiple attacks to be worthwhile).

 

To distinguish the kits detect illusion ability from Inquisitor TS, it could be usable every round, with a % chance per level of succeeding, and need perhaps a round to cast*, to represent, rather than a magical ability the WS focusing to disbelieve the illusion.

 

*Probably should be uninterruptable, so have a spell with zero casting time trigger a second spell through 146.

[Kalindor]

I think the lesser of the two evils is granting mages a chance to survive, rather than making WS unstoppable, especially considering players never have to face a WS (I hope we'll change this sooner or later within a Revisions mod), and a charname WS surely has plenty of other ways to survive that encounter (e.g. IR V3 items, potions, scrolls, etc.). Am I wrong?

I would at least give them the option of selecting additional Breach attacks as an HLA, but it's your call. There are a decent number of encounters with multiple enemy mages, and only being able to strip the protections from one once would not be amusing.

 

In the end, I do think an on-hit version of Breach as almost zero appeal, and wouldn't even end up working as you'd expect it to work (a Breach effect which doesn't breach PfMW and Absolute immunity isn't a Breach effect imo). Don't you agree?

If it can't bypass PFMW then there really is no point.

 

Well, you could make it generate a one-shot magical weapon like shocking grasp. This is less elegant than your proposal, perhaps, but it has the possibility of adding additional on-hit effects with WS level if desired.

We thought about this too. Technically, it would work better, but conceptually I really don't like it. We are talking about a FIGHTER class, his ability shouldn't include things such as creating a magical weapon in his hands to replace his current one. Am I too strict?

I agree that it is conceptually problematic, but it may be the only effective option.

[Demivrgvs]

I would at least give them the option of selecting additional Breach attacks as an HLA, but it's your call. There are a decent number of encounters with multiple enemy mages, and only being able to strip the protections from one once would not be amusing.

Well, in my current beta he gets one use per day at 10th lvl, and another one at 18th (which could be changed to xth), but giving the option of having more uses per day as an HLA may be fine (even selectable multiple times like the planned +5% magic resistance HLA).

 

P.S I thought about doing the same with other similar x/day abilities like Berserker/Barbarian Enrage and Paladin's Lay on Hands, I was simply unsure of the appeal of such HLAs.

 

Well, you could make it generate a one-shot magical weapon like shocking grasp. This is less elegant than your proposal, perhaps, but it has the possibility of adding additional on-hit effects with WS level if desired.

We thought about this too. Technically, it would work better, but conceptually I really don't like it. We are talking about a FIGHTER class, his ability shouldn't include things such as creating a magical weapon in his hands to replace his current one. Am I too strict?

I agree that it is conceptually problematic, but it may be the only effective option.

I hope not.

[SixOfSpades]

Since it doesn't look like I'll be releasing the next version of my Kitpack any time this year, would you care to hear how I chose to implement the WS? It performs pretty well (IMO) in playtesting, nice and balanced, although I still need to make the new icons a bit prettier, and accounting for mod items will be have to be done by hand.

[DrAzTiK]

Can I have a confirmation Demivrgvs :

 

Are you going to forbid enraged bersekers and barbarians to use quick item slots? (I mean potions slots).

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

Since it doesn't look like I'll be releasing the next version of my Kitpack any time this year, would you care to hear how I chose to implement the WS? It performs pretty well (IMO) in playtesting, nice and balanced, although I still need to make the new icons a bit prettier, and accounting for mod items will be have to be done by hand.

Sure, go ahead. Your kit design generally has too much "mod added" feel for me (aka not enough close to PnP or vanilla), but you also often have very good ideas.

 

Enrage

Can I have a confirmation Demivrgvs :

 

Are you going to forbid enraged bersekers and barbarians to use quick item slots? (I mean potions slots).

Exactly, as per PnP. Deciding if and when entering a rage will be a real tactical decision with a serious drawback. Note though that rages within KR are even more powerful than vanilla's ones in terms of melee potential (note: I'm speaking of their mid-high lvl versions, as for low lvls I obviously nerfed them to fit BG1).

[DrAzTiK]

Exactly, as per PnP. Deciding if and when entering a rage will be a real tactical decision with a serious drawback. Note though that rages within KR are even more powerful than vanilla's ones in terms of melee potential (note: I'm speaking of their mid-high lvl versions, as for low lvls I obviously nerfed them to fit BG1).

 

Ok...I admit I am a litle scare about this drawback but surely it worth a try.

[Ardanis]

I'd like to point out that inability to drink a healing potion for a full turn is a sure death sentence when fighting anything posing a challenge (be it a lich, a dragon or a bunch of grunts) - regardless of party level. And you don't really want to waste rages on opponents below threat threshold, do you?