Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[kreso]

I've been playing Barbarian some more. I honestly believe this kit needs some nerf in BG1. The power of this kit is immense after level 6, and more often than not he attacks with 5apr (non-hasted!). His hit points are supreme, and his AC easilly reaches extremely low values.

Giving him pips in dual-wielding is very wrong - either it's 2-handed or sword&shield - he makes the most out of those 2, given apr cap.

I like him and all, but something needs to go - even with a party with 3 warrior half-orcs, he'll amount for more than 60-70% of total kills. This changes in BG2 (his power is still there, but he plays differently), but if kit is to be balanced for BG1 I'd say a slight nerf (something like Cleave level 6 adds "only" +1 apr possibility, so he'd max at 4 if dual-wielding).

He pretty-much makes Fireball/Skull Trap and similar spells redundant.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

@Kreso, 5 apr for more than a couple of rounds means you are surrounded by a horde of very weak opponents because it means the Barbarian is killing 2-3 opponents each round...does it really happen so often? And when it happens, isn't it working as it should? As long as this doesn't mean he can perform like that when surrounded by powerful opponents I think it's fine. As you say it sort of performs like a weaker Fireball (a 3rd level spell mages get at level 5), great against large groups of critters, not so great against worthy foes. Am I wrong?

 

That being said, if Great Cleave really is too powerful, I would probably replace it with something else (e.g. our suggested mix of Cleave Through + Leap Attack - though that was intended to replace Supreme Cleave, wasn't it?) rather than nerfing it. What you suggest is doable (Cleave 1 adds a melee EFF which can trigger Cleave 2, both cannot stack), but it's not going to make such a huge difference imo, not to mention both the current PnP Great Cleave and your suggested nerfed version are destined to become redundant by the time you get to level 9 (aka outside of BG1) because with BG2 opponents it's very unlikely to trigger Cleave more than once in the same round. That's why Supreme Cleave is there.

[kreso]

Barbarian

@Kreso, 5 apr for more than a couple of rounds means you are surrounded by a horde of very weak opponents because it means the Barbarian is killing 2-3 opponents each round...does it really happen so often?

Yes...it's due how this game was made. Of course, it depends on weapon and strenght, but 19 str + 2handed sword kills many enemies in a single hit. There aren't many large HP enemies in BG1.

 

 

And when it happens, isn't it working as it should? As long as this doesn't mean he can perform like that when surrounded by powerful opponents I think it's fine.

He only needs to kill one, say, "medium difficulty" oponnent. When it gets rolling, there's no stopping anymore.

 

As you say it sort of performs like a weaker Fireball (a 3rd level spell mages get at level 5), great against large groups of critters, not so great against worthy foes. Am I wrong?

The thing is, much of BG1 enemies are "critters".

 

That being said, if Great Cleave really is too powerful, I would probably replace it with something else (e.g. our suggested mix of Cleave Through + Leap Attack - though that was intended to replace Supreme Cleave, wasn't it?) rather than nerfing it. What you suggest is doable (Cleave 1 adds a melee EFF which can trigger Cleave 2, both cannot stack), but it's not going to make such a huge difference imo, not to mention both the current PnP Great Cleave and your suggested nerfed version are destined to become redundant by the time you get to level 9 (aka outside of BG1) because with BG2 opponents it's very unlikely to trigger Cleave more than once in the same round. That's why Supreme Cleave is there.

In BG2 Cleave surely isn't as powerful. What I'm suggesting is a slight balance tweak for BG1 only.

[kreso]

Here's some feedback on a whole BGT game.

Party was Barbarian, Fighter and Archer (for relevant members).

Game setup IR, SR, KR, Refinements, SCS - highest difficulty options, aTweaks Undead only, hand-edited armors for 10-15 damage resistance (I didn't touch leather/studded leather).

Somehow, Fighter ended up being the "highest number of kills" character, followed closely by Archer.

Archer's THAC0 (Heartseeker, Archery Bracers, +3 arrows) eneded up about -20 without any buffs. She never missed in BG2 or ToB apart from critical misses, and did about 21 damage per hit, killing most of targeted oponnents in a single round.

Called Shots, as I suspected, are nigh impossible to resist with penalties involved. -4 vs Trip is impossible for a mage (any!) to resist with 4 apr. Even some high-leveled fighters (Gromnir in ToB) failed to save against that. Best of all, it can be used with a non-enchanted arrow on a mage under PFMW, since mages so rarely employ Protection from Missiles in BG2. I found this to be an extremely effective tactic and had almost no use for either Breach casting or any kind of antimagic.

AC values I ended up with having with both Fighter and Barbarian are around -20 (both had shields), which was easilly lowered to capped value of -24.

In ToB,both were impossible to kill in melee fighting if not disabled.

Archer provided a constant buff with his Barkskin castings, lowering both of frontliners AC.

 

Some suggestions:

 

Barbarian - for all his Cleaving power in BG1 (mine was a halfling with 17 str, but he got higher (19) mid BG1/mid BG2) I'd really like to see this feat merged with Leap Attack (i.e.- when he kills an enemy, he gains extra movement speed/attack speed/+x damage) rather than "no cap on number of attacks".

Refinements made a HLA which offers +5 to damage resistance, pickable 4 times. I think 2 are enough. This way, issue of 100 resistance would be avoided:

20 base

10 armor

20 Hardiness

10 Helmet (Roranach's Horn)

10 from HLAs

25 from Ascension final challenge

95 total. With Refinements, it ends up at a possible value of 105, albeit only for duration of Hardiness.

Best of all is, he doesn't actually need DR since he's annoyingly hard to hit in the first place .

Even with his high HP (around 140 at SoA end was what mine rolled) and exellent saves, he died if left alone vs SCS Liches and their magic, which is good - a Barbarian shouldn't be as effective vs mages anyway.

Overall, balanced and fun, would only like that Cleave bit refined.

 

Fighter - I think this is the most effective kit thus far. He easilly matches an Archer in terms of damage output (+4 Offensive Stance, +1 Tactician) and even surpasses him with ranged weapons damage (with a cost of -3 THAC0, which is irrelevant with ranged weapons in late game).

+1* to all weapons is exellent, since he can then freely make CS with darts/daggers which are so rarely picked, and allows him to use all those nice IR weapons when you want them.

Stances are good. In general, my playstyle was that in BG1 he's the tank - Defensive stance was mostly used, while Barbarian and Archer provided the DPS. In BG2/ToB, he was in semi-permanent Offensive Stance while Barbarian did the tanking.

Overall, exellent. I'd say he's the most powerful kit of all. Paladins are neat as well, but Fighters offers a no-save disable which pierces Improved Invisibilty/PFMW, tipping the scales in their favour.

Suggestions - none, actually, apart from nerfing down Called Shots penalties (I was thinking only one late, level 20 or something, upgrade for -1, and an extra -1 possibly picked as a HLA, for a -2 total). It really is that effective.

And Tactician could also be improved via HLA's - +1 to select bonus (AC, THAC0 or damage).

Stances (since you have a BAM ) could be really made "permenent" until player chooses to end/switch them.

 

Archer - he doesn't go well with Barbarian, since in BG1 he kills creeps so fast that Cleave won't trigger nearly as much. He's a good buffer with his Barkskin, and ends up as a decent ranged damage dealer/mage killer with Called Shots. His extra missile avoidance feat does come in handy vs Melf's Meteors which 99% of SCS mages use. He never misses. With Heartseeker bow, he could make Vorpal Hits with non-enchanted arrows, which is insane and (imo) needs to go.

Suggestions - tweaking his Called Shots a bit. He's simply outshadowed by a True Fighter in late game, when his few select spells don't matter that much. He already has limited use in BG1 due to Prot Missiles spell, and in BG2 his positioning may be screwed up, getting him killed very fast.

Refinements added a HLA which gives him more accuracy, damage and chance for instant kill. If anything, I'd like if he would be focused on disables, rather than buffing up his godlike accuracy.

 

P.S.

As for Berserker, I noticed that SCS (when installed after KR) sets a scripting state for his Rage...even tough it doesn't provide the immunites of vanilla game.

[Demivrgvs]

@kreso, as always very helpful thanks.

 

True Fighter

Called Shots, as I suspected, are nigh impossible to resist with penalties involved. -4 vs Trip is impossible for a mage (any!) to resist with 4 apr.

Multiple Called Shots on the same round should not stack. I don't know why Disarm already works like that and Trip doesn't, will fix. That being said, if the save penalty is too harsh fine with me capping it to -2.

 

Offensive/Defensive Stances will be made permanent and removable via "neutral stance" thanks to custom sec type.

 

Barbarian

I'd really like to see this feat merged with Leap Attack (i.e.- when he kills an enemy, he gains extra movement speed/attack speed/+x damage) rather than "no cap on number of attacks".

Already planned yes.

 

25 from Ascension final challenge

Permanent 25% damage resistance to all dmg types? That's insane!

 

Berserker

I noticed that SCS (when installed after KR) sets a scripting state for his Rage...even tough it doesn't provide the immunites of vanilla game.

Not a big deal imo considering those immunities are probably triggered anyway within 1-2 rounds of Rage. Am I wrong?

 

Archer

His extra missile avoidance feat does come in handy vs Melf's Meteors which 99% of SCS mages use.

 

He never misses.

As expected I guess. What about making ranged Called Shots impose an additional -2 penalty to thac0, making them very hard to accomplish for a True Fighter, but still not a huge problem for an Archer? My only doubt is that -6 penalty at level 4 might be heavy even for an Archer, but I may be wrong (base thac0 16, +2 bonus from kit, +2 bonus from Mastery, +x from DEX and +y from enchanted bow/ammo).

 

With Heartseeker bow, he could make Vorpal Hits with non-enchanted arrows, which is insane and (imo) needs to go.

I guess the "problem" is just related to mages under PfMW. I'm not sure why SCS seems to use ProMissile less than before (back then I remember it using such protection almost always - that's why we allowed the dispelling arrow to work against it), but Heartseeker's "vorpal" ability is the weakest incarnation of such ability with 10% chance and a relatively easy save (no penalty), is it really so OP?

 

Refinements added a HLA which gives him more accuracy, damage and chance for instant kill. If anything, I'd like if he would be focused on disables, rather than buffing up his godlike accuracy.

I have quite a few ideas in mind, you'll see.

[kreso]

@kreso, as always very helpful thanks.

Np.

 

True Fighter

Multiple Called Shots on the same round should not stack. I don't know why Disarm already works like that and Trip doesn't, will fix. That being said, if the save penalty is too harsh fine with me capping it to -2.

It's not the stacking what's "wrong" (even tough I witnessed the "drop down" animation even if the enemy was knocked down already), just the save is too harsh. Usually they end up failing on the first shot fired. I don't know if this is supposed to be so powerful. It does last short, but usually enough to kill the mage targeted. Maybe Ardanis was right when he proposed a bonus to save. It would be great if you'd have 1 single attempt for a CS (only for the next hit), not a whole round.

Save vs death mages usually have around 9 or 10. The chance to resist 4 shots (which is a simple Haste) at -4 is just slighty higher than 2%. And archer makes those 4 hits unless he rolls critical misses, no way a mage can get sufficient AC to withstand his THAC0.

Even if mage somehow survives the unconcius round, it's fairly easy to Trip him again - and 2 rounds of inactivity he won't survive.

 

 

Offensive/Defensive Stances will be made permanent and removable via "neutral stance" thanks to custom sec type.

Great.

 

Barbarian

Permanent 25% damage resistance to all dmg types? That's insane!

Yes. It's like an "evil path bonus" similar to Hell Trials. It's saving grace is that

a) a true role-player would not pick it if he's playing "good"

b) it's a bonus you get only for the final battle after defeating the Ravager

And yes, it's insane on Barbarians/Paladins/Fighter-Clerics. Maybe the files involved (will check) could/should be tweaked a bit - permanent 10 would be fitting. The alternative bonus is useless (Resurrection).

 

Berserker

Not a big deal imo considering those immunities are probably triggered anyway within 1-2 rounds of Rage. Am I wrong?

It's fine I guess.

 

Archer

 

What about making ranged Called Shots impose an additional -2 penalty to thac0, making them very hard to accomplish for a True Fighter, but still not a huge problem for an Archer? My only doubt is that -6 penalty at level 4 might be heavy even for an Archer, but I may be wrong (base thac0 16, +2 bonus from kit, +2 bonus from Mastery, +x from DEX and +y from enchanted bow/ammo).

Imo, the real issue here is that THAC0 bonuses from bows+arrows+dexterity stack so you get to obscene values quite fast (THAC0 of 2 and lower in BG1, which surpasses melee THAC0 by 6 points or more).

Don't forget 2 early THAC0 buffs (Bless and Aid) which last for 5 turns within SR, providing an additional +2 THAC0. Add Know Oponnent as well. Hitting stuff will still be easy.

What you might want to do is make CS impose a bigger (much bigger!) penalty at range. This would by itself nerf the use vs mages, since within SCS the only time they stand idle is if they're not casting - they're very hard to pin down in melee (if "enchantement doesn't affect speed factor of weapons" is installed, you might almost never hit him with a slow and big weapon).

Or drop +x THAC0 from arrows, and only keep it for bows.

Or, remove THAC0 from both bows and arrows, since if you want to play an archer type you'll want 18 dex at least, and you'll probably make a classic elven 19dex BG1 monster.

Or, make Trip level 10 not apply knockdown but prevent the target from moving at all - this may actually be quite good (similar how Disarm prevents attacks). That would still keep it very useful, and less overpowered, but useful, vs mages - let them keep their AC bonus and spellcasting, just make them hittable with big weapons (Silver Sword and Carsomyr come to mind )

But I'd hate to see IR delayed further on these accounts.

 

I'm not sure why SCS seems to use ProMissile less than before (back then I remember it using such protection almost always - that's why we allowed the dispelling arrow to work against it), but Heartseeker's "vorpal" ability is the weakest incarnation of such ability with 10% chance and a relatively easy save (no penalty), is it really so OP?

I don't know why SCS doesn't use pro missiles more often, it's amazing in conjuction with PFMW/Fireshields even in vanilla game.

Yes, the Heartseeker is that OP.With sheer apr the chance isn't that small, and it demolishes mages. I remember a Vorpal Trip shot vs Kaol (level 18 mage) with a normal arrow. Keep in mind that this bow can be obtained very early with use of several invisibility potions/stealth, and even without it's Vorpal feature it's like +4THAC0/+5 damage.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't know why SCS doesn't use pro missiles more often, it's amazing in conjuction with PFMW/Fireshields even in vanilla game.

Maybe it's because the SCS doesn't like to cheat... as in, go to the vanilla game and try to cast the three spells by casting them from the mages spell book... and you'll see that you can combine the PfMW and PfNM(and or PfNW). That is without using a script cheat. Dah.

[kreso]

I don't know why SCS doesn't use pro missiles more often, it's amazing in conjuction with PFMW/Fireshields even in vanilla game.

Maybe it's because the SCS doesn't like to cheat... as in, go to the vanilla game and try to cast the three spells by casting them from the mages spell book... and you'll see that you can combine the PfMW and PfNM(and or PfNW). That is without using a script cheat. Dah.

Nothing in the game indicates that protection from Missiles can't be used together with Protection from Magical/Normal weapons afaik. Even if they couldn't, then Physical Mirror should be made "uncastable" if mage/cleric is under any "Protection from x weapons", since not only does it block missiles, it turns them on who fired them.

[DrAzTiK]

At 5th level, the berserker's fury engenders fear in his enemies. While enraged, any opponent within 15 feet must save vs. spell or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorry but I don't see any message about enemy failing or not saving throws in the dialogue box. Can you confirm that this feature works correctly ?

[Demivrgvs]

At 5th level, the berserker's fury engenders fear in his enemies. While enraged, any opponent within 15 feet must save vs. spell or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorry but I don't see any message about enemy failing or not saving throws in the dialogue box. Can you confirm that this feature works correctly ?

I think other testers saw it working but I don't remeber anymore. I'll look into it asap. KR needs a new beta anyway.

[kreso]

At 5th level, the berserker's fury engenders fear in his enemies. While enraged, any opponent within 15 feet must save vs. spell or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorry but I don't see any message about enemy failing or not saving throws in the dialogue box. Can you confirm that this feature works correctly ?

I think other testers saw it working but I don't remeber anymore. I'll look into it asap. KR needs a new beta anyway.

It works. You get a "save vs spells at x" message only on a succesful save - vannila game behaviour. Same as succesfully casting any spell which allows a save, you don't see "save failed".

Anyhow, I've played around with tweaking Called shots penalties. Imo, the best solution (and the most balanced one) is to max out save penalty at -1. Another -1 may be a HLA ("Called Shot mastery") or similar. In addition, I'd propose a nerf to the

Trip effect - failed save prevents movement rather than knockdown (knockdown is a complete disable which goes through anything apperantly). I'm testing it out now with an Archer, and it's both useful and far less overpowering vs mages.

[Ardanis]

P.S.

As for Berserker, I noticed that SCS (when installed after KR) sets a scripting state for his Rage...even tough it doesn't provide the immunites of vanilla game.

The state check is more to prevent AI from re-casting it when it's still active.

[DavidW]

P.S.

As for Berserker, I noticed that SCS (when installed after KR) sets a scripting state for his Rage...even tough it doesn't provide the immunites of vanilla game.

The state check is more to prevent AI from re-casting it when it's still active.

This.

 

Basically, using Rage for Barbarians/Berserkers is a high-priority action in SCS scripting fairly independent of the details of what it does - partly because warriors just aren't that time-constrained for special ability use, but mostly because if Barbarians don't rage the player can't really tell they're Barbarians and the flavour benefit is lost.

[Demivrgvs]

True Fighter

I've played around with tweaking Called shots penalties. Imo, the best solution (and the most balanced one) is to max out save penalty at -1. Another -1 may be a HLA ("Called Shot mastery") or similar. In addition, I'd propose a nerf to the

Trip effect - failed save prevents movement rather than knockdown (knockdown is a complete disable which goes through anything apperantly). I'm testing it out now with an Archer, and it's both useful and far less overpowering vs mages.

I planned to cap CS save penalties at -2. Regarding Trip, I'm really reluctant to give up its current knockdown implementation because it's what you expect from this combat maneuver.

 

I haven't tested it in-game much, but I really don't see how an ability which can be used only few times per day, requires a hit roll while imposing a heavy thac0 penalty on the user, and allows the target a save can be overpowered if it disables the latter for a single round. Any character using Celestial Fury can do the same all day long each round and multiple times per round... What am I missing?

 

I'm instead more inclined to think about your suggested change when it comes to ranged CS, because I do agree that knocking down with an arrow should be extremely more difficult than doing the same thing with a halberd. That being said, rather than having Trip set movement rate to 0 (it doesn't sounds right, and I fear that in-game it would look awful) I would replace Archer's Trip with Pin, and have the latter block the target in place without knocking it down.

 

Barbarian/Berserker

As for Berserker, I noticed that SCS (when installed after KR) sets a scripting state for his Rage...even tough it doesn't provide the immunites of vanilla game.

The state check is more to prevent AI from re-casting it when it's still active.

This.

 

Basically, using Rage for Barbarians/Berserkers is a high-priority action in SCS scripting fairly independent of the details of what it does - partly because warriors just aren't that time-constrained for special ability use, but mostly because if Barbarians don't rage the player can't really tell they're Barbarians and the flavour benefit is lost.

I'd like to remember that KR's Berserker still has most of his vanilla immunities, but it's great to know we are not breaking SCS.

[kreso]

I planned to cap CS save penalties at -2. Regarding Trip, I'm really reluctant to give up its current knockdown implementation because it's what you expect from this combat maneuver.

I know.

 

I haven't tested it in-game much, but I really don't see how an ability which can be used only few times per day, requires a hit roll while imposing a heavy thac0 penalty on the user, and allows the target a save can be overpowered if it disables the latter for a single round. Any character using Celestial Fury can do the same all day long each round and multiple times per round... What am I missing?

Celestial Fury is a vs spells save, with no penalty, and PfMW will render it useless. It's also relatively slow, so mages won't get hit by it so easilly as with arrows.

Let's see. A high level mage hit by Trip has (consider -2 penalty) 55% chance to fail his save. Rest assured, he will fail it in that round with 4 apr archer targeting him. Save vs death is extremely hard on mages.

Result:

1)any AC bonus on mage is irrelevant

2)spellcasting ends for duration (3 CS - 3 rounds)

3)SCS makes mages very mobile (net effect - good luck hitting one in melee with a heavy weapon), and when pinned down they die very fast

4)THAC0 of the entire party becomes irrelevant - your mages can rip him to shreds with Melfs meteors if not under PfMW.

5)fights in BG2 rarely include more than 1 or 2 mages. Once he goes down, it's over for the AI - and Trip can be used several times, and no mage will survive 3 rounds of disable.

6) nothing protects mages from it - PfMW (which is mostly used, moreso since it fits into triggers) is counterable by non-enchanted weapons, all of their spell protections become irrelevant.

In the game I played some time ago Trip proved so powerful I never cast Breach in SoA, since it is a disable which prevents both movement and spellcasting, making mages sitting ducks.

 

I'm instead more inclined to think about your suggested change when it comes to ranged CS, because I do agree that knocking down with an arrow should be extremely more difficult than doing the same thing with a halberd. That being said, rather than having Trip set movement rate to 0 (it doesn't sounds right, and I fear that in-game it would look awful) I would replace Archer's Trip with Pin, and have the latter block the target in place without knocking it down.

Sounds good. If it's in any way possible (I don't know what Pin does in game) it would be good if it would allow spellcasting.