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Kit Revisions (Fighters)


Demivrgvs

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Called Shots

I haven't tested it in-game much, but I really don't see how an ability which can be used only few times per day, requires a hit roll while imposing a heavy thac0 penalty on the user, and allows the target a save can be overpowered if it disables the latter for a single round. Any character using Celestial Fury can do the same all day long each round and multiple times per round... What am I missing?
Celestial Fury is a vs spells save, with no penalty, and PfMW will render it useless. It's also relatively slow, so mages won't get hit by it so easilly as with arrows.
Points taken, and that's why I suggested making CS with ranged weapons harder back then (additional -2 thac0 penalty), and I'm now suggesting to eventually replace Archer's Trip with Pinning Shot.

 

Regarding PfMW, didn't SCS finally started to use Mantles? :(

 

Let's see. A high level mage hit by Trip has (consider -2 penalty) 55% chance to fail his save. Rest assured, he will fail it in that round with 4 apr archer targeting him.
I thought we already discussed about this and that the current beta was more "up to date". Called Shots are supposed to be "one time only per round" attacks. For some reason I already made Disarm not "stack" but Trip still allows multiple hits. I'll fix it for the next update, and that alone is a huge nerf compared to the CS you are currently experiencing (targets need to save only once, not 4 times in a row!).

 

1)any AC bonus on mage is irrelevant

2)spellcasting ends for duration (3 CS - 3 rounds)

3)SCS makes mages very mobile (net effect - good luck hitting one in melee with a heavy weapon), and when pinned down they die very fast

4)THAC0 of the entire party becomes irrelevant - your mages can rip him to shreds with Melfs meteors if not under PfMW.

5)fights in BG2 rarely include more than 1 or 2 mages. Once he goes down, it's over for the AI - and Trip can be used several times, and no mage will survive 3 rounds of disable.

6) nothing protects mages from it - PfMW (which is mostly used, moreso since it fits into triggers) is counterable by non-enchanted weapons, all of their spell protections become irrelevant.

1) you mean once disabled? Because before it it actually matters a lot against CS, considering that even a simple II makes the fighter attack with a -8 thac0 penalty.

2) that is assuming you are expending your entire x/day abilities on the same target and he is failing his save 3 times in a row

3) Pinning Shot would still look good then :)

4)5) nothing to say here

6) a tripped mage can still benefit from Stoneskin, Fireshields, and so on. Btw, more contingecies with things like Resilient Sphere or Shadow Door/Mislead once disabled would be cool though.

 

I'm instead more inclined to think about your suggested change when it comes to ranged CS, because I do agree that knocking down with an arrow should be extremely more difficult than doing the same thing with a halberd. That being said, rather than having Trip set movement rate to 0 (it doesn't sounds right, and I fear that in-game it would look awful) I would replace Archer's Trip with Pin, and have the latter block the target in place without knocking it down.

Sounds good. If it's in any way possible (I don't know what Pin does in game) it would be good if it would allow spellcasting.
There' isn't a Pin opcode, I'm just suggesting to make Archer's CS against legs to work as a Pinning Shot (DA style - on a failed save movement rate is set to 0, pretty much as an entangle effect) rather than a Trip maneuver.
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Called Shots

 

Regarding PfMW, didn't SCS finally started to use Mantles? :(

They do....sometimes, but from my experience, PfMW is much more common. I mentioned this in SCS forum already.

 

1) you mean once disabled? Because before it it actually matters a lot against CS, considering that even a simple II makes the fighter attack with a -8 thac0 penalty.

Be it -8 or -12, arrow will hit him on a regular basis after 13-14th level on your warrior. Just consider Bless+Aid+Tactician Aura.

2) that is assuming you are expending your entire x/day abilities on the same target and he is failing his save 3 times in a row

That's assuming a mage will survive a single round, and that's assuming much :D. Let's say a 6 person party probably attacks with 15-20 APR (Haste), and all attacks will hit. It's doesn't look good for 5 Mirror Images and 9 stoneskins. (18th level mage)

 

6) a tripped mage can still benefit from Stoneskin, Fireshields, and so on. Btw, more contingecies with things like Resilient Sphere or Shadow Door/Mislead once disabled would be cool though.

Def.spells just prolong their agony for several seconds - I've never witnessed a mage going back up from Trip, even before HLA's like WW, or even Imp.haste.

 

There' isn't a Pin opcode, I'm just suggesting to make Archer's CS against legs to work as a Pinning Shot (DA style - on a failed save movement rate is set to 0, pretty much as an entangle effect) rather than a Trip maneuver.

Lol - that's what I did in my game already :D to try out - remove Sleep opcode and MS set to 0.

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Demi, what is your opinion on this: Berserker gets Deathless Frenzy at level 1. Frenzy increases in duration at 10/19. When ends, Frenzy drops him down (unconciusness).

Viable, or completely crazy? Worth testing at all?

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Berserker

Demi, what is your opinion on this: Berserker gets Deathless Frenzy at level 1. Frenzy increases in duration at 10/19. When ends, Frenzy drops him down (unconciusness).

Viable, or completely crazy? Worth testing at all?

I wouldn't really give Deathless Frenzy at level 1. Even assuming we could balance it in some way, I do think something so outstanding as becoming an unkillable death machine should be gained later on. It should be something you look forward, and then grin with joy when your character finally gets to it. If you get it from the start there's no sense of progression imo, and getting increased duration of your rage really cannot give the same satisfaction as finally seeing your character continue to fight despite taking mortal wounds.

 

Regarding unconsciousness at the end of a Frenzy state, that's something I think we mentioned sometime (probably when discussing how to prevent the "infinite Frenzy state"), but I dropped it because I wasn't sure about its implementation. We cannot use the unconsciousness opcode because it's shared by both sleep and knockdown effects. We could try to re-implement vanilla's "damage after rage" (I think Arda really liked this aspect of vanilla's Rage) but replacing actual dmg with a variable amount of stunning dmg type which won't kill the character at 0 hp but drop him unconscious. The end result would be that a Berserker on near death condition would drop unconscious at the end of a Frenzy, but a injured one (thus one who might have not needed his Deathless Frenzy feature) could remain conscious. The problem with this implementation is that afaik any sort of heal or Regeneration, even Berserker's own Diehard feat, would end the unconsciousness state. It might be fine if it lasts at least 3-6 sec, but it would look kinda silly imo if it lasts 1-2 seconds. Am I wrong?

 

That being said, it might be worth trying.

 

P.S Mind you, the latest and last update to D&D Next seem to have "copied" KR again (I'm starting to truly believe they are following our forum!) because they just gave the Barbarian two paths to follow, Totem Barbarian (extremely close to KR's kit, including feral senses) and Berserker (extremely close to KR's kit, including Terrifying Rage and Deathless Frenzy at level 20). o.O

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The thing is - as he stands, it's rather problematic to keep him alive. I've tried several things (extra regen when frenzied, haste when frenzy, bonus damage + extra attack etc.) but keep failing - mages simply eat him with Fireshields - not to forget that regardless of his damage, stoneskin+mirror image makes him waste frenzy on what is basically an immune target.

My idea was that the "sense of progression" comes from prolonging Frenzy time (from my experiments, it doesn't really matter all that much if it's 18 sec, 30 sec or 60 sec) and making it's negative features last shorter - at level 19 for example, he would get Tireless Rage, allowing to skip the unconcius part alltogether. But you point about regen makes sense.

Will try some more ideas, and let you know how it goes.

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I do have an idea. As I was out of the touch from BG modding scene for a while you could actually ignore it - still, I don't really feel like much of time passed since we talked about Revision mods last time.

 

My idea for Fighter is.

 

Give him one skill - Combat Manevrues. Which works just like Immunity to <insert spellschool> spell. So you basically have a menu that gives you some options. This way you will make the choices between skills a bit more difficult while also still keep the simplicity of Fighter's class.

 

Let's say we have those Combat Manevrues. Fighter can use it once per day per 4 levels. And depending on levels he gains access to.

 

Level 1: Power Attack, Precision, Iron Will

Level 7: Defensive Stance, Battlecry, Cleave

Level 14: Endurance, Deathblod

 

HLAs could actually be the improved versions of those skills. Let's say Iron Will is the ability that grants +3/+5 bonus to saving throws vs. Spells for next 10 seconds. Improved Iron Will makes it grant Immunity to Mind-affecting spells for 15 seconds.

Battlecry grants +1 bonus to Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls and AC to your teammates for 10 seconds. HLA, improved Battlecry doubles the bonuses and makes them gain this bonus for each other teammate in small radius around them. Or something else if that is too fancy.

 

Kits would possibly have partially different lists. Kensai could loose some of those while gain his Ki Strike and Ki Dodge. Wizard Slayer could for example loose Endurance but gain Resistance that increases his Magic Resistance by 20% for next 10 seconds. And stuff like that.

 

So - centralize the Combat Tricks into one list and limit their uses based on overall uses.

 

Power Strike: next strike within 10 seconds is dealt with +2 bonus to Damage Rolls but -1 penalty to Attack Rolls. At level 7th it increases to +4/-2. At level 18th it increases to +8/-4. HLA: gains Knocback.

Precision: next strike within 10 seconds is dealt with +2 bonus to Attack Rolls but suffers -1 penalty to Damage Rolls. At level 8th it increases to +4/-2. At level 18th it increases to +8/-4. HLA: critical strike.

Battlecry: gives +1 bonus to Attack Rolls and Armor Class to your teammates for next 10 seconds. At level 7th it increases to +2 bonuses, at level 17th to +3 bonuses. HLA: additionally grants +2 bonus to movement speed and additional attack per round.

Defensive Stance: gives +2 bonus to Armor Class, but makes you unable to move for next 10 seconds. At level 7th +4, at level 17th +6. HLA: you can slowly move during DS.

Harden: grants +20% physical resistance at level 14th. Increases to +30% at level 17th. HLA: you can't die during the duration (10 seconds).

 

These are just an example.

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True Fighter

Give him one skill - Combat Manevrues. Which works just like Immunity to <insert spellschool> spell. So you basically have a menu that gives you some options. This way you will make the choices between skills a bit more difficult while also still keep the simplicity of Fighter's class.
Well, this is pretty much as it works right now. I combined combat maneuvers with the called shot system but even in PnP (where the latter is an optional rule) they kinda overlap with each other.

 

I'm also thinking to expand his commander-like Tactician features to work in the same way, replacing permanent auras with 2-3 abilities (e.g. Flanking, Shield Wall, Battlecry?), but for now the class seems fine, if not the best all-around one together with the True Paladin.

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True Fighter

...... but for now the class seems fine, if not the best all-around one together with the True Paladin.

I think even adding +x to save vs y won't break anything; SCS checks for saves before casting a save or else spell. I still wouldn't overdo it on x/day usable abilities, it may get overly complicated to have so many active abilities and a chore to handle (count in HLAs and x/day items, and it's overboard already).

Anyhow, I think with some refinements (nerfs) to Called Shots fighter is quite well done, tbh. I'd also put in the Inquisitor as a top-notch revisioned kit, Monk is very playable (maybe slightly on the OP side), Kensai is great. True Paladin is ok, but he lacks some "real definition" imo. Barbarian is fine, one thing I'd add is some bonus to Rage at higher levels since it somehow gets redundant by the equipment available (maybe Tireless Rage). WizardSlayer I'll play some more in a few days, I have little time nowdays for BG, apart from forums. :(

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True Fighter

...... but for now the class seems fine, if not the best all-around one together with the True Paladin.

I think even adding +x to save vs y won't break anything; SCS checks for saves before casting a save or else spell. I still wouldn't overdo it on x/day usable abilities, it may get overly complicated to have so many active abilities and a chore to handle (count in HLAs and x/day items, and it's overboard already).

I'm well aware of not adding too many active abilities to warriors, though the Monk has tons of them and seem fine. Anyway, it was just an idea for the future, right now I'm probably not going to spend much time on fighters because they all seem fine, with the exception of the Berserker which is a nightmare to handle. The kits who need attention right now are Cavalier and Holy Undead Hunter :) and obviously rangers (thought the Archer itself is in much better shape than the base class imo).

 

Additional small suggestion. Don't you think Stances last for too long? 2 rounds would be fine to be honest.
Stances won't even have a duration. The plan is to make them "permanent" as per PnP, and let players decide between offensive, defensive or neutral stance on the fly.

 

Warriors overview

Anyhow, I think with some refinements (nerfs) to Called Shots fighter is quite well done, tbh. I'd also put in the Inquisitor as a top-notch revisioned kit, Monk is very playable (maybe slightly on the OP side), Kensai is great. True Paladin is ok, but he lacks some "real definition" imo. Barbarian is fine, one thing I'd add is some bonus to Rage at higher levels since it somehow gets redundant by the equipment available (maybe Tireless Rage). WizardSlayer I'll play some more in a few days, I have little time nowdays for BG, apart from forums. :(
True Paladin not having a heavily defined role is actually expected considering it's a base class and not a kit, but the more general role I imagined for him is that of a "support tank". If I'll ever have to work on that broken BGEE Dwarven Defender that class will be the best physical tank, but the Paladin can tank against both physical and magical threats, while offering support to the party with their healing abilities or auras.
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True Fighter

I'm well aware of not adding too many active abilities to warriors, though the Monk has tons of them and seem fine.

He does, until you pair him up with Refinements HLA table which adds 15 or so more. :D

 

I'll ever have to work on that broken BGEE Dwarven Defender that class will be the best physical tank

I got EE just recently, but didn't waste much time on it - the amount of nonsense within is too much for me to handle, from old kits that were never really optimized for BG1 to Dwarven Defender (50% physical resistance? On level 1?). As if the people making it never played BG (or any old-school RPGs) at all. I just hope that BG2 EE will be in a far better shape.

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Berserker rework, take 202 :p :

 

Rage ability

- +x to HP - stays. He needs it

- +x vs spell - This may even be removed or reverted back to death save

- -x penalty vs breath - fine

- +x THAC0/damage - remove both, or keep only THAC0

- Aura of fear removed from here

- chance for Frenzy - increased, may add "when hit" trigger here also, or (imo, the best option) no trigger at all - it launches after 2/3 rounds (this is important. It blocks the "let's avoid confusion spell like a WizardSlayer" exploit and it makes Deathless Frenzy tricky to use accurately.)

- fatigue when ends - removed from here

- AC penalty - removed, he'll get them in Frenzy

- immunity to Berserk - this must be done. There are battles where attacking someone other than enemies will display "game over" screen. He needs control to remain playable there.

 

 

 

Frenzy

- immunites to enhancements - stay

-"curing" bad effects - Confusion doesn't get "cured" anymore, Hold and Stun do

- Aura gets implemented here - -1 to damage rolls (save vs spells), increases to -3 to damage (scales, allows a saving throw, short range - keeps vulnerabilty to missiles)

- -x AC penalty

- fatigue when ends, includes damage on Berserker as well

- duration increases same as Rage

- Berserk removed, and actually gains immunity to it (crazy, I know :cool: ). Berserk state (if active) gets cured by Frenzy.

- +1 apr removed

- gains damage instead - scalable, 4/8/12

- potions, innates, etc. can't be used for the duration

- Diehard gets implemented here; he no longer benefits from regen if not frenzied

 

Addition

Each hit on berserker has a 5% chance to send him into a Berserk state for 2 rounds. He completely looses control of himself, and attacks randomly.

 

 

Ok, I had a few easy hours at work this morning and I gave Berserker some thinking.

Basically - what I noticed from playing is that he actually blows where he should rule - vs bosses. It's a chore fighting Sarevok in BG1 with him - I ended up keeping him away from boss-types completely - no control- dead berserker.

So, this is what I came up with.

 

The main idea - his immunities can't be gained "randomly" anymore. He must expend his Rage to get them (per vanilla). This way blocks the possible exploit of damaging him yourself with magic missiles or similar to grant him immunities.

Curing Confusion I don't really like for some reason - while I can envision him being immune to it, he shouldn't be simply cured imo.

Aura - he's more scary when in Frenzy I guess. It's THAC0 penalties somehow don't fit him at all, and of all people he's the one who benefits from it the least (they're irrelevant vs big enemies with no shield/frenzy penalty)

Fatigue - basically, it takes more effort to maintain Frenzy than Rage. He can't enter Rage (and therefore Frenzy as well) while fatigued.

Duration increase - with levels, he can maintain Frenzy state longer.

Potions - even with Berserk opcode being used, he can drink them (if he sees no enemies at the end of round, he may drink one, since you regain "green circle").Therefore, revert back to first version (grayed out icons for the duration)

Damage instead APR - apr cap, damage simply scales better into lategame, much less owerpowering early on

 

Berserk 5% when hit - dissalows for tanking, does not grant any immunites any longer. Pure disadvantage of the kit, makes him very vulnerable outside his Rage/Frenzy (also dissalow potions for reasons above)

- makes him weak vs random mobs, especially with no shields restriction

- duration of only 12 seconds as to avoid having an 18 second chase for your cleric, but still long enough to make a difference (completely locked in combat)

- trigger changed to "took damage", not "hit by".

 

Toughts?

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I actually believe that Berserker should be kept away from Berserk state. From the two: Berserker and Barbarian, Berserker is the one 'trained'. So - basically his kit encourages the scheme of "be weak most of the time, be much better than standard warrior during Enrage". Barbarian on the other hand is the one with primal instincts that while offering stronger advantages should also give him hindrance of the frenzy.

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Berserker

I actually believe that Berserker should be kept away from Berserk state. From the two: Berserker and Barbarian, Berserker is the one 'trained'. So - basically his kit encourages the scheme of "be weak most of the time, be much better than standard warrior during Enrage". Barbarian on the other hand is the one with primal instincts that while offering stronger advantages should also give him hindrance of the frenzy.
Leaving aside that even berserk opcode name itself should hint that the kit concept we are aiming towards is the right one, the Berserker has always been about "loss of control in exchange for mass destruction". Vanilla's implementation of the Berserker misses all the drawbacks from AD&D kit, and KR is simply restoring them while expanding the concept taking inspiration from 3E Frenzied Berserker.

 

I'd like to point out that the Barbarian did not even had a Rage ability within AD&D, and even in later edition, where the Berserker is a barbarian PrC, the base class is the "controllable" one.

 

Berserker rework, take 202 :p
I hope to find some time to post more about it, and actually work on it (that should not take much once decided). For now I can only say I agree on many details (+damage instead of +apr, no potions, using fatigue to prevent infinite frenzy, etc.) but I have to repeat what I said you not so long ago: class features should not be overcomplicated (aka it should be easy to describe the class for us, and easy to understand and play for players).

 

You are suggesting again "three different rages" or "levels of rage", and that imo is really too much to keep track of for many players. I've kept two "levels of rage" is because 3E Berserker can stack both Barbarian's base Rage and Berserker's Frenzy, but most importantly I cannot make the "enrage when hit" part automatically consume 1/day uses of Frenzy as per PnP, and thus I use two "stages" of rage to handle that mechanism. Short story: if I could, I would probably simplify it rather than split it even more as you are suggesting (Rage, Frenzy and Berserk?).

 

I'll be back asap. ;)

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Demi, I've edited the files involved myself to try this out, took me about 2 hours.....

Of course, these proposed changes were slightly changed when I started working on those.

What I created is something like this:

 

Berserker has x/day Rage. Now, Rage has some benefits which are gained upon casting (HP bonus, +2 vs death/-2 vs breath).

10 seconds after Rage is cast he gains his set of immunities (Frenzy)

Essentially;

Rage duration =Frenzy duration +10 seconds.

 

What I wanted to do is implement the "delay" between using the ability and gaining it's full benefits.

Rage lasts longer (40, 50, 60) while Frenzy (If you'd call it that anyway) lasts 10 seconds shorter (30, 40, 50).

They expire at the same time - it's a single x/day ability now.

Therefore, you may completely disregard my above post - it doesn't really matter if you make him gain x benefit in Rage or Frenzy - turns out theorycrafting at work is one thing, being implemented another :D .

 

In practice, you have only 2 abilities:

1) Rage, which is similar to vanilla but takes 10 seconds to "set in" (I had to make a custom .spl for that to work as intended. I'm getting good with this. :D )

2) Berserk when hit with 5% chance (maybe add immunities here as well?) which cannot trigger while he's raging

 

 

Anyhow, the main idea I followed - make him a viable anti-boss steroid fighter, keep him vulnerable in long battles, retain loss of control.

Numbers should of course be tweaked - I made them such for my own nefarious testing purposes :cool: to see if the whole idea has any merit.

Thinking about it some more, anything here can be tweaked - from aura to Diehard ability.

Main thing is to keep him "controlable" for some battles.

Of course, we can play with durations/implementations here

For example:

1) while raging, he can go berserk on a target, but lasts shorter (has a high probabilty to berserk for only 6 seconds)

2) berserk when hit lasts only 6 seconds, 10% or higher chance (this way you keep him "locked" on enemy over and over)

3) re-implement his on-hit ability to trigger berserk for 6 seconds (if you wanna make him a real steroid-type fighter)

etc.

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