Jump to content
Demivrgvs

Kit Revisions (Fighters)

Recommended Posts

I am strongly in favor of having the Frenzy effect used by AI Berserkers as well.

 

This breaks AI.

 

Anyhow, back to the Berserker - he won't work in BG2. He's fine in BG1, and (again) dies on a very regular basis in BG2 if he uses Rage unless it's at the very end of the battle where it doesn't make a difference anymore - full plate isn't as godly as in BG1.

I've played ToB with him a bit (level 20+) and there he can take on armies alone since he can't die for the duration of Rage for as long as he's attacking something.

MinHP is a huge boost in power, but I was unable to get to it using Rage.

His preformance on the battlefield is mostly sub-optimal.

Even if I got him to attack only enemies, he wastes so much time on 2nd grade targets/summons that he's simply not worth the effort involved to keep him alive through the game.

I did what I could, suggested/tweaked how I tought it would work, yet in BG2 berserk opcode always fails. Potions/maneuvering is an integral part of fighter gameplay and he looses out on both.

Perhaps in vanilla game using berserk opcode could work, but not for SCS. :(

Maybe it's time to drop the berserk opcode usage from him and figure out different means of balancing.

Share this post


Link to post

Maybe it's time to drop the berserk opcode usage from him and figure out different means of balancing.

 

In order to preserve the uniqueness of the class, I would prefer to keep the berserk effect and forsake balancing instead of the vice-versa.

Share this post


Link to post

Some feedback on fighters :

 

TRUE FIGHTER: Stances are good idea. Perhaps incerase number of stances? My proposition:

 

Class Features:

- Rolls d10 for hit points.

- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in any weapon proficiency.

- Can wear all types of armor.

- At 1st level, can use Power Attack, Combat Expertise and Flurry at will. These abilities improve significantly at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.

- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

- At 5th level, becomes proficient (+) in the use of all types of weapons.

- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to an additional whole attack per round at 13th level.

- At 9th level, becomes specialised (++) in the use of all types of weapons.

- At 11th level, gains the Tactician feat. This ability improves significantly at levels 14 and 17.

- At 15th level, can use Hardiness once per day.

 

 

Power attack Combat Expertise Flurry

level 1: -1hit +1dmg level1: -1hit +1AC Level 1: -5AC +1APR

level 5: -2hit +2dmg level 5: -2hit +2AC Level 5: -4AC +1APR

level 10: -3hit +3dmg level 10: -3hit +3AC Level 10: -3AC +1APR

level 15: -4hit +4dmg level 15: -4hit +4AC Level 15: -2AC +1APR

level 20: -5hit -5dmg level 20: -5hit +5AC Level 20: -1AC +1APR

 

Alternative: Power attack/Improved power attack/ Master power attack (lvl 1/10/19) +2/3/4dmg -2/3/4 hit

Combat Expertise/ Improved CE/Master CE (lvl 1/10/19) +2/3/4AC -2/3/4hit

Flurry/Improved Flurry/Master Flurry (lvl 1/10/19) +0,5/1/1,5 APR -2/3/4 dmg

 

BARBARIAN: Looks good, IMHO should get full access to stances and called shot. No Tactician feat

 

BERSERKER: frenzy is bad idea, it takes control from player and basically makes offensive stance worthless, too much risk. Positioning and movement are only things you can control about fighter. Should only be able to specialise (++). Full access to stances and called shot. No Tactician feat.

 

KENSAI: Ki pool is bit underwhelming right now. I rather hoped that this class go in more weapon master direction that kensai one.

 

WEAPON MASTER:

 

Advantages:

- At 1st level, gains Focus skill he can use once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10 and 19.

- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with melee weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at 16th level.

- At 2nd level, gains a +2 bonus to weapon speed factor.

- At 15th level, can use Deathblow once per day.

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot wear armor heavier than chainmail, wear gauntlets, nor use shields.

- Cannot use missile weapons.

-Can only master melee weapons (+++)

 

FOCUS: for one round all attacks automatically hit, at level 10 deal max damage, and at level 19 deals double damage (so autohit, x2 max damage)

 

Much more "light" version of kensai with less abilities but more freedom in playstyle. And really lack of helmets sucks even in ToB auto protection from crits is crazy good.

 

WIZARD SLAYER: -incerase Disruptive Strike spell casting failure to 50%? Make it scale with level?

-can only specialise (++)

-full access to stances and called shot

 

Well, as seen I'm in opinion that grandmastery should be true class fighter exclusive along with Tactician feat, and that any kit should get full access to all combat stances and called shot. Mainly because I really like some versatility, and restricting GM to true fighter balances this somewhat. So opinions?

Share this post


Link to post

Berserker

Maybe it's time to drop the berserk opcode usage from him and figure out different means of balancing.
In order to preserve the uniqueness of the class, I would prefer to keep the berserk effect and forsake balancing instead of the vice-versa.
Let's see if I got it right:

- the current solution finally manages to make him almost always attack enemies?

- the class still performs greatly for early game, bad for mid-game and slightly better but not enough for late game?

- the lack of control would ruin the kit performance too much even if we could turn that "almost" into an "always"?

- the lack of control would ruin the kit performance even if we make the Berserker much more durable while enraged/frenzied?

For example one of the last thing we could try is moving Deathless Frenzy to mid game (not sure at which level). If everything fails, I fear I agree we will have to give up using berserking opcode, though it would be a real damn shame. :(

 

@Kalindor, I'm sure Kreso would never give up to berserking opcode unless really necessary. We have all grown to love it since we started messing with it (it's all your fault Arda!), but the class needs to be playable and balanced imo.

 

@Ogi, I'm falling asleep and I cannot reply to your posts so quickly, I'll reply to them tomorrow morning while drinking my cappuccino. ;)

Share this post


Link to post

Berserker

Let's see if I got it right:

- the current solution finally manages to make him almost always attack enemies?

He's fine for that. Not perfect (he still bumps into your own) but one learns to avoid him quickly (I had a Stalker with him on the frontier which helped immensly since he has the ability to go invisible without using a potion).

 

- the class still performs greatly for early game, bad for mid-game and slightly better but not enough for late game?

This is imo due to fact that in BG1, most enemies you encounter are in between levels 5 or 6, and are mostly armed with bows and swords. Full plate is so effective against them that even an AC of -1 is a very effective defense after accounting specific AC modifiers against missiles/slashing. There are oponnents which beat him into a pulp if he decides to Rage even in BG1, but those are rare. While exploring wilderness and similar stuff, using OS with a big sword will grant you hits up to 30 damage, which is enough to kill oponnents in a single hit - leaving the berserker unharmed.

 

- the lack of control would ruin the kit performance too much even if we could turn that "almost" into an "always"?

Imo, yes. I've fiddled with NI to see how if I can create that melee hit which will make allies untargetable, but dropped the idea after thinking about it a bit - it won't help him.

For example, Underdark features battles where one gets attacked by 10-15 relatively high level Drow. Their casters summon tons of different summons. Frenzy there will only get you killed, since he gets caught in between the enemies. His preformance under Frenzy is really, really bad. And full plate is not enough to protect himself anymore.

He's playable as long as you don't Rage - but what's the point in having a suicide skill? :)

 

- the lack of control would ruin the kit performance even if we make the Berserker much more durable while enraged/frenzied?

Yesterday I gave him double the amount of HP for Frenzy. Mine had 120 at level 15, so he had 240. It didn't make him that much more effective, I'm afraid. As a bad AC frontliner, he takes massive damage in a very short time.

My final attempt involved giving him a Whirlwind effect. He killed himself on a double-fireshield mage under PFMW. :D Then I called it a day.

 

For example one of the last thing we could try is moving Deathless Frenzy to mid game (not sure at which level).

I suggested you give it to him at level 1 :). After level 20, I'd dare to say that if somehow you manage to end the fight prior to Rage expiring, it's quite imbalanced. 48 seconds is a long invulnerability time. My issue with this is that prior to it, he's very weak, while with it he suddenly becomes unstoppable. It's a huge leap.

Mages still pawn him, Maze and similar stuff works like a charm against him.

 

If everything fails, I fear I agree we will have to give up using berserking opcode, though it would be a real damn shame.
:(

My fear is even if we could make a boost to have him much more frenzy-survivable (thinking about it, it may not be hard) the overall balance may be disturbed too much. Even now, OS+Rage in BG1 will give you critical hits with around 60 damage, which is an entire HP pool of many critters like Ankhegs and such. Not that I mind that - Ankehegs will for example strike him with relative ease as well, but how can one balance frenzy with regard to different encounters? Using it in some will make the berserker litteraly destroy 15 enemies solo. In others, a single Yuan-ti mage will kill him without breaking a sweat.

Agree on the shame part, especially after 7 months :(

 

@Kalindor, I'm sure Kreso would never give up to berserking opcode unless really necessary.

He wouldn't. :)

 

We have all grown to love it since we started messing with it (it's all your fault Arda!), but the class needs to be playable and balanced imo.

I had high hopes for this implementation, especially after a great start in BG1.

Perhaps a more user-friendly implementation, more in line with the original game is not so bad after all. I did remove the chance for Frenzy from OS and still found him very, very fun to play. What I noticed is that playing him in that "safe" way is actually a nice change of pace. No more running away from him, no more random targeting etc.

Basically, I'd pick him even if he never frenzied over any other kit. :p

Another point to note - there's no need for "drastic measure" things such as "double HP" or "double apr" if we decide to drop the berserk from him.

And yeah, he needs to be playable - while I loved some strictly flavour kits (I love vanilla beastmaster for example, even tough his in game implementation is beyond the line of stupid), I wouldn't degrade Berseker to that.

Anyhow, I'm very happy with the effort of us all on this kit, regardless of the outcome. :)

Edited by kreso

Share this post


Link to post

TRUE FIGHTER

Stances are good idea. Perhaps incerase number of stances?
I was thinking to turn the whole Tactician feature into a sort of stances (e.g. Shield Wall, Flanking, etc.) but I think quite a few players were afraid the True Fighter would start to have really too many things to activate during a fight between stances, Called Hits, HLAs, potions, item abilities, etc.

 

Regarding your suggested Flurry of Blow stance, I think the True Fighter is really not a good candidate for it. This class already has superior apr coupled with almost perfect accuracy, increasing apr even more can make him quickly OP imo.

 

Well, as seen I'm in opinion that grandmastery should be true class fighter exclusive along with Tactician feat, and that any kit should get full access to all combat stances and called shot. Mainly because I really like some versatility, and restricting GM to true fighter balances this somewhat. So opinions?
On one side I agree with you (I once suggested to make WS limited to spec or mastery and Berserker should have been a Barbarian kit on the first place), otoh I think it's a really drastic change 90% of players might not like and/or consider too "arbitrary".

 

Last but not least, Called Hits (aka Combat Maneuvers), is what currently defines the True Fighter the most, separating specialized kits from this more versatile soldier. I admit certain maneuvers fit one kit or the other, but I would surely never give full access to all of them to all kits as a general rule (it would ruin the True Fighter imo), and while keeping GM only for them sounds great power-wise, it's also a quite blend feature (a bunch of passive bonuses with no real flavor) which doesn't make playing a TF distinctive.

 

BARBARIAN

Looks good, IMHO should get full access to stances and called shot. No Tactician feat
KR's Barbarian is all about sheer physical power (strength, agility, reflexes, endurance) not about finesses and combat maneuvers.

 

BERSERKER

- frenzy is bad idea, it takes control from player and basically makes offensive stance worthless, too much risk. Positioning and movement are only things you can control about fighter.

 

- Should only be able to specialise (++).

- Full access to stances and called shot.

- No Tactician feat.

I really cannot imagine a Berserker using a Defensive Stance, nor using CS to disarm a target instead of smashing it with a huge greatsword. Trip might make sense.

 

We are indeed starting to give up about Frenzy. :( @kreso, try playing with OS not causing Frenzy for now, I'll start to think how the current Berserker could turn out without Frenzy (e.g. the latest Unchecked Fury would be really too powerful if it triggers a controllable Rage).

 

KENSAI

Ki pool is bit underwhelming right now. I rather hoped that this class go in more weapon master direction that kensai one.

 

 

WEAPON MASTER

Advantages:

- At 1st level, gains Focus skill he can use once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10 and 19.

- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with melee weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at 16th level.

- At 2nd level, gains a +2 bonus to weapon speed factor.

- At 15th level, can use Deathblow once per day.

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot wear armor heavier than chainmail, wear gauntlets, nor use shields.

- Cannot use missile weapons.

-Can only master melee weapons (+++)

 

FOCUS: for one round all attacks automatically hit, at level 10 deal max damage, and at level 19 deals double damage (so autohit, x2 max damage)

 

Much more "light" version of kensai with less abilities but more freedom in playstyle. And really lack of helmets sucks even in ToB auto protection from crits is crazy good.

Not sure how your suggested solution would give "more freedom in playstyle" considering you are pratically just replacing Ki Strike with a very slightly improved variant, and removing both Ki Step and Ki Dodge.

 

What do you mean by "Ki pool is bit underwhelming right now"? Ki Step evolves into a sort of Improved Evasion (dodge any reflex saved spell during that round) and Ki Dodge into a short lasting PfMW! You may not like it, fine with me, but surely not consider it UP. o.O

 

Regarding this class getting medium armors and losing Grandmastery, both changes are so drastic that I'm 100% sure almost anyone except you would bash me for even dare to suggest them. You are pretty much asking to turn this kit into something else entirely.

 

WIZARD SLAYER

- incerase Disruptive Strike spell casting failure to 50%? Make it scale with level?

- can only specialise (++)

- full access to stances and called shot

Spell Failure >=50% makes SCS mages stop casting, that's why we have "nerfed" it to 40%. Edited by Demivrgvs

Share this post


Link to post
I really cannot imagine a Berserker using a Defensive Stance, nor using CS to disarm a target instead of smashing it with a huge greatsword. Trip might make sense.

He already has Power Attack when it comes to disables, I think he's covered. Unlike Demi, I don't feel as Trip suits him. I see it as a trained maneuver, not overcoming the enemy with muscle power.

 

@kreso, try playing with OS not causing Frenzy for now

Already done. :(

 

I'll start to think how the current Berserker could turn out without Frenzy (e.g. the latest Unchecked Fury would be really too powerful if it triggers a controllable Rage).

Have a delay in between him being disabled and him breaking free.

 

KENSAI

 

getting medium armors and losing Grandmastery, both changes are so drastic that I'm 100% sure almost anyone except you would bash me for even dare to suggest them.

Kensai w/o Grandmastery dressed in armor? This is indeed drastic.

Share this post


Link to post

Ah well, those only my opinions. But I freely admit I never was fan of kensai kit, and fighter always be somewhat bland, unless you go full 4th ed with its at will/encounter/daily powers.

Wizard slayer currently is bland unless used against mages, no stances or CM, that's why I suggested giving him access to them but limiting weapons to specialisation.

Barbarian: I suggested giving him stances because of variant rages he had access to in 3.5 or pathfinder. I strongly doubt that you will want implement them.

Flurry: It's because of its large amount of attacks that this won't be that good, after all - 4dmg per hit (alternative version) means that you will deal 18 or less dmg... hmm perhaps this is UP. First version was based on pathfinder scalable with level combat feats, and +1APR but -5/4AC is tough choice on low levels.

Other than that I think that this is really awesome idea for mod, and I hope that you will finish it someday.

 

P.S. what about cleric revisions?

Share this post


Link to post

OK, if spontaneous Frenzy is that much of a penalty later on then we can make it start to go away at higher levels:

-Offensive Stance as it currently is with no chance of Frenzy (need to balance vs. the Kensai, he should not deal comparable damage as the Kensai with no chance of Frenzy).

-Rage gives its current bonuses as well as some immunities to mind-affecting spells (Edit: covered by frenzy-when-disabled?). Starts with a 20% chance to Frenzy (reasonable for BG1 hit rate). This chance decreases with level as the Berserker learns to control his enraged state. At high levels Frenzy only has a small chance (5% or less) to activate while enraged.

-Keep the Frenzy-on-disabled effect as it is cool and fits him well.

-Deathless Frenzy is now an activated ability like Whirlwind Attack. Here is an example:

 

DEATHLESS FRENZY:

The Berserker intentionally succumbs to his seething fury, entering a frenzied and uncontrollable state for 5 rounds. During this time, the Berserker gains +4 to his damage rolls but will attack the nearest target. While in a Deathless Frenzy, the Berserker regenerates two hit points per round up to 50% of his maximum hit points.

At level 7, the damage bonus is increased to +6 and the regeneration is increased to four hit points per round.

At level 12, the damage bonus is increased to +8 and the Berserker cannot be reduced below 1 hit point while Deathless Frenzy is in effect.

At level 17, the Berserker regains 25% of his maximum HP when Deathless Frenzy expires.

 

The numbers can obviously be tweaked. This allows the Berserker to use Deathless Frenzy at higher levels as a powerful "panic button" or as a chance to majorly distract melee-range enemies as long as you stay away. With the decreasing chance of Frenzy while enraged, it also allows a higher-level Berserker to fight in a more consistently-controllable state when desired. This also controls the duration of 1-HP-minimum since you only have one use of Deathless Frenzy per day (or maybe one more with a HLA). What do you think?

 

*Edit: As an alternative to Frenzy on hit, you could also give a percent chance to lose control upon entering Rage that decreases with level as he learns to control it. Everything else I mentioned still stands.

Edited by Kalindor

Share this post


Link to post
OK, if spontaneous Frenzy is that much of a penalty later on then we can make it start to go away at higher levels:

-Offensive Stance as it currently is with no chance of Frenzy (need to balance vs. the Kensai, he should not deal comparable damage as the Kensai with no chance of Frenzy).

I'm fine with berserker dealing more damage then KR kensai. Kensai keeps his accuracy, he gains supreme AC in melee, has consistent damage output, and dodges AoE energy attacks.

 

-Rage gives its current bonuses as well as some immunities to mind-affecting spells (Edit: covered by frenzy-when-disabled?)

I'm afraid Charm isn't "curable". Berserker should probably have Fear immunity as well. I'm not too keen on having him "cure" himself of confusion, I'd rather use your suggestion (Mind Effects) for Rage immunities, while Hold effects could be "curable" by what he has now. How to balance this is a different matter - we end up giving him a "free-action" minus Web immunity...

 

. Starts with a 20% chance to Frenzy (reasonable for BG1 hit rate). This chance decreases with level as the Berserker learns to control his enraged state. At high levels Frenzy only has a small chance (5% or less) to activate while enraged.

-Keep the Frenzy-on-disabled effect as it is cool and fits him well.

I made peace with Frenzy yesterday, tbh. It's megacool, but it isn't worth the price.

 

-Deathless Frenzy is now an activated ability like Whirlwind Attack. Here is an example:

When testing him out in ToB, this idea struck me as well, similar how Monks gain Slow Time.

 

DEATHLESS FRENZY:

The Berserker intentionally succumbs to his seething fury, entering a frenzied and uncontrollable state for 5 rounds. During this time, the Berserker gains +4 to his damage rolls but will attack the nearest target. While in a Deathless Frenzy, the Berserker regenerates two hit points per round up to 50% of his maximum hit points.

At level 7, the damage bonus is increased to +6 and the regeneration is increased to four hit points per round.

At level 12, the damage bonus is increased to +8 and the Berserker cannot be reduced below 1 hit point while Deathless Frenzy is in effect.

At level 17, the Berserker regains 25% of his maximum HP when Deathless Frenzy expires.

This looks very appealing! :D

 

What do you think?

I'd drop any % chance of Frenzy. 5% in ToB (where one attacks from 5-10 apr) isn't that small anymore (50% per round with WW). 20% is huge, even with 1 apr you'll feel it's there.

DF, otoh, looks great as 1x day ability.

Share this post


Link to post

Berserker

I think I share kreso's sentiment: "I made peace with Frenzy yesterday, tbh. It's megacool, but it isn't worth the price." :(

 

That being said, Deathless Frenzy as a late game x/day ability, if not directly an HLA, might be cool indeed. I thought to go back to my initial plan (the one before Arda suggested to use berserking opcode) where minhp was simply the last upgrade to the standard Berserker Rage, but Kalindor's suggestion would allow us to preserve a little bit of the lost flavor, and we can actually make it extremely powerful without fearing of it making the class destroy everything all day long.

 

Other classes

Other than that I think that this is really awesome idea for mod, and I hope that you will finish it someday.

 

P.S. what about cleric revisions?

I fear I'm one of the slowest modders in galaxy, but thanks to kreso and kalindor this project has actually started to proceed much faster in the last months, and I do expect things to go a lot faster after we have done with warriors and rogues. I'm not sure in which order I'll work on spellcasters...on one side I'd give precedence to the ones which performed less well in vanilla, thus bards (Blade was almost OP, but True Bard was really really lame) and druids, otoh I know that clerics and mages (specialists in particular) would draw a lot more attention.

Share this post


Link to post

I have now made my peace with Frenzy as well. We will probably look back once the mod is finished and say "What on earth were we thinking?" :D

 

If Deathless Frenzy is an activated ability as was mentioned above, we can still retain some of the cannot-be-controlled functionality in a more desirable and, well, controllable form. This, combined with the frenzy-upon-disable feature, gives him plenty of personality in my opinion. I should mention that Deathless Frenzy need not be solely restricted to high-level use if you make it gradually improve as suggested. Use your discretion, of course, but if we are losing spontaneous Frenzy early on then I think a low-level "Deathless Frenzy" with only the damage bonus and regen would allow even a low-level Berserker to have plenty of uncontainable, unchainable coolness.

 

If there are certain mind-affecting abilities like charm or fear that will not be broken by frenzy-when-helpless, then I am in favor of having Rage grant immunities to those specifically.

Edited by Kalindor

Share this post


Link to post

I have now made my peace with Frenzy as well. We will probably look back once the mod is finished and say "What on earth were we thinking?" :D

Maybe....

 

If Deathless Frenzy is an activated ability as was mentioned above, we can still retain some of the cannot-be-controlled functionality in a more desirable and, well, controllable form. This, combined with the frenzy-upon-disable feature, gives him plenty of personality in my opinion. I should mention that Deathless Frenzy need not be solely restricted to high-level use if you make it gradually improve as suggested.

I like this.

 

If there are certain mind-affecting abilities like charm or fear that will not be broken by frenzy-when-helpless, then I am in favor of having Rage grant immunities to those specifically.

T-up.

Share this post


Link to post

Okay, I've saddenly accepted the Offensive/Defensive Stance. Yeah. Took me a bit of time.

I still have one issue with all the Fighter's abilities.

You actually get them when your ThaC0 is still pretty awkward. I'm glad I do have 19 Thac0, why not turning it into 20 just to have that +1 to damage.

I'd actually propose the idea of moving both Stances and Disarm/Trip into a bit later levels. If you'd still need some kind of level 1 bonus, Fighter could get additional 2 proficiency points over other classes (so... 6 instead of 4).

 

Or just moving free proficiency in all weapons to level 1. Then Fighter can become specialized in 4 weapons instead of 2. That'd on the other hand require some patching on mod NPCs.

Edited by yarpen

Share this post


Link to post

You actually get them when your ThaC0 is still pretty awkward. I'm glad I do have 19 Thac0, why not turning it into 20 just to have that +1 to damage.

This is true. They aren't of much use prior to level 5 at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...