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Demivrgvs

Kit Revisions (Fighters)

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Berserker

Thanks guys for the feedback. I think it's best to split the discussion a bit between BG1 and BG2, especially considering that afaik Kalindor is speaking only for the former right now. @yarpen, I think you may have missed the last updates because we already removed berserk opcode.

 

BG1

If I'm not wrong, the class seems overall fine for BG1 in terms of "power lvl". Judging by his suggested small nerfs I guess Kalindor would probably still rank the Berserker as the most powerful fighter here despite the "nerfs", while Kreso considers the True Fighter slightly better, but I think we are speaking of minor differences if not outright preferences. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The only real "problem" for the Berserker seems to be the flavor aspect which took a big hit since we removed berserk opcode and brought him back to something much more similar to vanilla's kit.

On one hand I'm sympathetic to this, and I'll try to come up with something (*), but otoh I'm almost convinced that you two guys can feel this because you have played our previous versions of this kit, where a proper berserking Frenzy was making the kit way more unique. For those who have not played the real Frenzied Berserker, even the current state of the kit has much more flavor than vanilla's one while making them not fear about huge changes at the same time. I get that if you don't use Reckless Offensive or Rage he looks almost like a vanilla fighter, but isn't that to be expected? If you don't use his unique abilities he does not look unique anymore.

 

(*) Following your suggestions it sounds like something which activates automatically rather than on activation is needed. It sounds like something like turning Reckless Offensive into a separate feature (like the old Frenzy but without berserk opcode) which activates on hit by itself rather than being part of OS would make the kit feel unique even when not using OS and Rage. Is this what you guys are suggesting?

 

BG2

The lack of IR and SR obviously creates a hugely different game experience yes, but that's pretty much obvious. That being said, other than Berserker not getting its intended "ignore reflex based saves" drawback, the class itself should still perform as expected imo.

 

First thing first, am I wrong assuming that despite the request for improvements, the kit is actually on par if not superior to vanilla's one (leaving aside dual class munchkin combos)? Previously you did not get anything after level 9 GM and +1/2 apr at level 13, now you have the following:

- at level 10 both OS and Rage improves (amongst other things, this means a net +3 dmg on each hit when using both).

- at level 11 you gain Diehard.

- IF we will add a third tier to all weapon styles then at level 12 you will also reach that tier, this already happens if you want your Berserker to dual wield

- at level 14 Diehard's effectiveness improves

- at level 15 you now get an HLA, which is both appropriate to the kit and particularly useful because of its disabling properties

Now, Rage duration is worth discussing, as it seem to actually be the main "issue" judging by your reports, and we may also discuss about Diehard needing a small boost (though regenerating items and KR's HLAs are supposed to do that imo) but overall it cannot be that bad, am I wrong?

 

When it comes to Rage duration if you guys think it needs a small boost I have no problems with it as long as it remains short enough to keep the fatigue effect something to take into account (I assume we all agree this is a crucial gameplay mechanic). What about 6 rounds for BG1, 8 for BG2 and 10 for ToB? Considering you don't get Rage's last update before the very end of SoA (even more so assuming revised xp tables) vanilla's 1 turn duration may actually not be a "problem" anymore by then (the reduced duration was mostly aimed at early and mid game).

 

I'm still not convinced Diehard needs a boost, but if other players end up agreeing with Kreso then I can easily consider to increase its regenerating effect a bit. As I once said, I'm also tempted to either add a regenerating effect to Rage itself, or replace the current +xhp with it. I do prefer to wait for more feedback though (e.g. at least let's see if Kalindor manages to reach BG2 with his run).

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Berserker

 

BG1

 

If I'm not wrong, the class seems overall fine for BG1 in terms of "power lvl".

He is. He will be sub-optimal in few select fights if he chooses to Rage/OS, but otherwise he's very powerful.

 

Judging by his suggested small nerfs I guess Kalindor would probably still rank the Berserker as the most powerful fighter here despite the "nerfs", while Kreso considers the True Fighter slightly better, but I think we are speaking of minor differences if not outright preferences.

Probably. I like versitality, i.e., a character that excells at any given situation, be it mages or dragons. That's what true class gives you with Stances and CS, even his 1* in all weapons is a very useful feature.

 

even the current state of the kit has much more flavor than vanilla's one

I like him.

 

(*) Following your suggestions it sounds like something which activates automatically rather than on activation is needed. It sounds like something like turning Reckless Offensive into a separate feature (like the old Frenzy but without berserk opcode) which activates on hit by itself rather than being part of OS would make the kit feel unique even when not using OS and Rage. Is this what you guys are suggesting?

Yes. Moreover since then AI would benefit from it. You did suggest once that OS could be a triggered by Rage anyway.

 

BG2

the kit is actually on par if not superior to vanilla's one

Regarding his offesive properties, yes, he's superior. At level 19 he deals almost double damage with his attacks. Regarding defense/survability, no. Vannila Rage could get you through almost any battle, and still have some duration left, not to mention that Rage itself had no drawbacks (he gained AC boost, which is hilarious). Now, he suffers some penalties for both Rage and fatigue afterwards.

 

When it comes to Rage duration if you guys think it needs a small boost I have no problems with it as long as it remains short enough to keep the fatigue effect something to take into account (I assume we all agree this is a crucial gameplay mechanic).

Fully agree.

 

What about 6 rounds for BG1, 8 for BG2 and 10 for ToB? Considering you don't get Rage's last update before the very end of SoA (even more so assuming revised xp tables) vanilla's 1 turn duration may actually not be a "problem" anymore by then (the reduced duration was mostly aimed at early and mid game).

In effect, 36/48/60 seconds? That's 6/9/12 increase....I like it. With Revised tables, considering no Watcher's Keep and/or extra mods, you don't get level 19 before ToB without some exp farming.

 

I'm still not convinced Diehard needs a boost, but if other players end up agreeing with Kreso then I can easily consider to increase its regenerating effect a bit.

I wouldn't increase it, even if it would be useful, strictly for avoiding "superhuman" properties - you mentioned once you don't want troll-like features and I agree. I'd make it permanent, tough, like in beta 1 (or when you got it to work anyway :D ). That way you can avoid "Cast spell on condition - target below x hp" late trigger in BG2.

3HP/round for a level 19 berserker is plenty already. It doesn't make much difference in combat (in ToB, you can easilly get hit for 60-100 damage in a round) but it allows for more relaxed gameplay, and does make a slight difference against mages. I love regeneration on my front-liners.

In BG1, I always gave him Cloak of the Wolf, so he can regen up slowly (it's 1hp/12 seconds) from his wounds.

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BG1

If I'm not wrong, the class seems overall fine for BG1 in terms of "power lvl". Judging by his suggested small nerfs I guess Kalindor would probably still rank the Berserker as the most powerful fighter here despite the "nerfs", while Kreso considers the True Fighter slightly better, but I think we are speaking of minor differences if not outright preferences. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes. True Fighter becomes just as appealing if not more so in my hands once Called Hit gains its disabling effects.

 

The only real "problem" for the Berserker seems to be the flavor aspect which took a big hit since we removed berserk opcode and brought him back to something much more similar to vanilla's kit.

 

If you don't use his unique abilities he does not look unique anymore.

 

(*) Following your suggestions it sounds like something which activates automatically rather than on activation is needed. It sounds like something like turning Reckless Offensive into a separate feature (like the old Frenzy but without berserk opcode) which activates on hit by itself rather than being part of OS would make the kit feel unique even when not using OS and Rage. Is this what you guys are suggesting?

This would be a good way to give him some more personality. The other kits have armor restrictions and passive bonuses like MR or weapon speed factor increase that make them always "feel" fundamentally different while playing them. With the current Berserker, you can forgo his abilities and he seems very much identical to a Fighter. Making Reckless Offense into an ability that triggers automatically would go a long way towards both giving him more identity and preventing him from being as good of a tank as a Fighter. Not having to activate it all the time would also be nice. If you want, you could even leave Offensive Stance in its basic form on the Berserker.

Now, Rage duration is worth discussing, as it seem to actually be the main "issue" judging by your reports, and we may also discuss about Diehard needing a small boost (though regenerating items and KR's HLAs are supposed to do that imo) but overall it cannot be that bad, am I wrong?

I admit that I have not played the current incarnation in BG2. On paper, Diehard looks nice but not super effective. I think it can probably be left as-is and just improved with HLA choices.

 

When it comes to Rage duration if you guys think it needs a small boost I have no problems with it as long as it remains short enough to keep the fatigue effect something to take into account (I assume we all agree this is a crucial gameplay mechanic). What about 6 rounds for BG1, 8 for BG2 and 10 for ToB? Considering you don't get Rage's last update before the very end of SoA (even more so assuming revised xp tables) vanilla's 1 turn duration may actually not be a "problem" anymore by then (the reduced duration was mostly aimed at early and mid game).

Sounds good to me. As an alternative, you can always make an HLA that extends it by 1 round that is selectable multiple times. More HLA options = happier me. :)

 

I'm still not convinced Diehard needs a boost, but if other players end up agreeing with Kreso then I can easily consider to increase its regenerating effect a bit. As I once said, I'm also tempted to either add a regenerating effect to Rage itself, or replace the current +xhp with it. I do prefer to wait for more feedback though (e.g. at least let's see if Kalindor manages to reach BG2 with his run).

I don't like the idea of Rage causing regeneration. If anything, add regeneration to Deathless Frenzy, or have Deathless Frenzy restore 25% HP when it expires. At the risk of sounding repetitive, you could make an HLA that improves the trigger threshold and/or regen speed of Diehard.

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I have a small suggestion for Berserker.

 

How about enhancing the current Diehard? I think that a Berserker who has lower HP would become much more angry so that gonna be tougher.

 

Not only current HP regen bonus but also some additional stats bonus, e.g., saving/attack rolls/physical resistance/etc, at lower HP would be good to describe "Berserker" more characteristically.

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Not only current HP regen bonus but also some additional stats bonus, e.g., saving/attack rolls/physical resistance/etc, at lower HP would be good to describe "Berserker" more characteristically.
Erhm, none of those work... damaged character won't be able to hit more accurately, nor take bigger blows(let alone the resistance regeneration is horrible) with lower hit points, they should be able to do more damage though(Berserkers in Myth II Soulblighter).

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Not only current HP regen bonus but also some additional stats bonus, e.g., saving/attack rolls/physical resistance/etc, at lower HP would be good to describe "Berserker" more characteristically.
Erhm, none of those work... damaged character won't be able to hit more accurately, nor take bigger blows(let alone the resistance regeneration is horrible) with lower hit points, they should be able to do more damage though(Berserkers in Myth II Soulblighter).

 

Well, If we follow your theory, damaged char won't be healed quickly by him/herself at all, either...

 

And I just borrow the idea from IR's Aeger's Hide +3, Animal Rage.

Edited by leania

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Well, If we follow your theory, damaged char won't be healed quickly by him/herself at all, either...
What I mean with the resistance regeneration is that when the player gets the characters resistance type over the 100%, every hit that causes damage normally will actually heal the character ... and that's unreal as you gain some of the resistances from armors etc.

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Why would you ever use Disarm over Trip after level 10?

Because Trip has no effect on certain creatures, and saving throw is more likely to fail in some cases.

Anyhow, what's the story for berserker now? Melee hit effect to launch himself in Reckless Offensive? I played around with it, ended up giving him a seperate instance of crushing damage on 30% of hits (1d6, 2d6, 3d6). Each time he triggers it, his AC, Breath saves and off-hand THAC0 drop by 1 for 12 seconds....meh. :D

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Some suggestions for fighters:

 

True Fighter - Defensive Stance adds +x to saves vs Breath, Offensive Stance upgrade at level 19 - +1 to critical hit chance.

 

Berserker - I'd like him to retain his feature of "not a team player". Suggestion - tweak his aura a bit - it offers no save, but affects allies as well. Berserker himself should naturally be immune to these effects (vanilla game description has a line saying something like "even allies are disturbed when they see savage elements of berserker...."

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Here's my current berserker revision:

- he no longer gains Reckless Offensive - instead non-berserk Frenzy is implemented at level 2.

I made the spell as "cast on condition - each round when attacked", with a 10% probability. Lasts for 4 rounds.

It grants +4/+6+/+8 damage bonus (levels 2, 10, 19), berserker takes -2 penalty to hit rolls and his luck is penalized by 2 (+2 damage for each damage instance). "Bad" effects last for 6 rounds (simulating exhaustion), berserker cannot turn invisible while Frenzy is active. It doesn't stack with itself, can only be active once per 8 rounds.

For some reason, I don't like how current version penalties to AC/Breath stack with Rage penalties (and become relatively irrelevant later on), so I substituted them for Luck penalty, which affects every damage roll berserker takes.

Deathless Frenzy removed as an innate, but instead merged with Frenzy as a level 20 upgrade to it.

I'm not sure how this will work out, but am playing a game as I write, with a berserker ofc.

 

Barbarian - I reworked Cleave feat, Leap Attack as well. He no longer gains Offensive stance (quite unusable in BG1 anyway for a poor THAC0 barbarian).

Cleave - at level 3, -4 penalty to damage and THAC0 rolls, +1 attack per round, +10 attacks speed factor, stacks with itself, all effects last 3 seconds.

level 6 - penalties are reduced by 2

level 9 - no penalties for cleaving

In effect, this makes Cleave work as a real "cleave-through" - the bonus attack triggers instantly - this looks much better than the current implementation, especially with 2-handed swords with low speed factor. I'm very happy with this tweak. :)

 

Leap attack - gained at level 6, sorta substitute for offensive stance. For 6 seconds, once per turn, double movement speed, large THAC0 bonus (+4) and damage bonus (+4), +10 attacks speed factor. I used "cast spell on condition - enemy sighted", with a "protection from spell - leap attack (60seconds)" to make this work as I wanted. Ideally, bonus damage would work only on the first attack, but I can't really make this work.

Could easilly be upgraded at later levels (shorter cooldown, more damage, bonus AC etc.).

 

Kensai - his Ki dodge at level 19 makes him unable to attack. I know I myself reccomended this, but the kit isn't that powerful to warrant such a nerf.

I made some items usable by Kensais grant critical hit aversion (not Ioun stones, but either bracers, off-hand weapons or similar), and his "perfect parry" I implemented as a huge AC bonus (-20, and an additional -20 vs weapon types), so he's only hittable by critical hits. Otherwise enemies switch targets away from him, which isn't cool.

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I really do like D&D Next's version of Barbarian/Berserker.

 

1 Rage 1/Day, Thick Hide

3 Fearless Rage

5 Extra Attack

7 Rage 2/Day

9 Mindless Rage

11 Unchecked Fury (I)

13 Rage 3/Day

15 Simmering Rage

17 Deathless Rage

19 Rage 4/Day, Unchecked Fury (II)

 

RAGE

At level 1, grants +2 bonus to Strength/Damage Rolls, 2 Hit Points per Level and -2 penalty to Armor Class.

At level 7, grants +3 bonus to Strength/Damage Rolls, 2 Hit Points per Level and -3 penalty to Armor Class.

At level 13, grants +4 bonus to Strength/Damage Rolls, 2 Hit Points per Level and -4 penalty to Armor Class.

At level 19, grants +5 bonus to Strength/Damage Rolls, 2 Hit Points per Level and -5 penalty to Armor Class.

 

Rage lasts for up to 1 Turn. It's effects can end pre-maturely if Barbarian is out of combat for 1 round.

Barbarian cannot cast spells, activate abilities, use skills or become invisible when enraged.

 

At level 3, also grants immunity to Fear.

At level 9, also grants immunity to Charm and Hold.

At level 15, Rage ends pre-maturely after 2 rounds out of combat instead of 1 round.

At level 17, also makes Barbarian unable to drop below 1 Hit Point (can still die due to slaying effects or stat drain).

 

At level 11, can attack three times per round (instead of two).

At level 19, can attack four times per round (instead of two).

 

THICK HIDE

At level 1, grants 1% physical damage resistance per level (up to 20% resistance at level 20th).

 

EXTRA ATTACK

At level 5, allows Barbarian to attack twice per round.

 

Notes: There is no berserk opcode or frenzy in here, but Rage feels the way it should be. Powerfull, but forcing you to do what you are best at - smashing faces. I mean, having berserk opcode makes you loose any interactivity while being forced to stay in combat gives you some options like well... targeting, or just retreating (but loosing benefits of Rage). I decided to drop the "fatigue" part of Rage as it could be impossible to be done with the whole Simmering Rage system. Thick Hide for the obvious reasons was unimplementable, so I put in here cool class feature he had in BG2 - physical damage resistance that fits well with "no AC, lots of Hit Points" plan Barbarian has for his enemies.

Bonus to both Damage Rolls and Strength seems scary. Especially with critical strikes.

Edited by yarpen

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As additional food-for-thought, my version of D&D Next Fighter.

 

FIGHTER
1 Weapon Expert
3 Improved Critical
5 Extra Attack, Mastery
7 Superior Critical
9 Weapon Specialist, High Mastery
11 Extra Attack
13 Diehard, Grand Mastery
15 Devastating Critical
17 Weapon Master, Critical Strike 1/Day
19 Extra Attack
WEAPON EXPERT
At level 1, grants proficiency in all weapons.
At level 9, grants specialization in all weapons.
At level 17, grants mastery in all weapons.
IMPROVED CRITICAL
At level 3, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a 19-20 roll.
At level 7, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a 18-20 roll.
At level 15, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a 17-20 roll. (or Stun on Critical Strike if implementable)
EXTRA ATTACK
At level 5, can attack two times per round.
At level 11, can attack three times per round.
At level 19, can attack four times per round.
WEAPON PROFICIENCY
At level 5, may achieve up to Mastery in any weapon.
At level 9, may achieve up to High Mastery in any weapon.
At level 13, may achieve up to Grand Mastery in any weapon.
DIEHARD
At level 13, as long as you are below 50% Hit Points, you regenerate 3 Hit Points per Round.

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Here's my current berserker revision:

- he no longer gains Reckless Offensive - instead non-berserk Frenzy is implemented at level 2.

I made the spell as "cast on condition - each round when attacked", with a 10% probability. Lasts for 4 rounds.

It grants +4/+6+/+8 damage bonus (levels 2, 10, 19), berserker takes -2 penalty to hit rolls and his luck is penalized by 2 (+2 damage for each damage instance). "Bad" effects last for 6 rounds (simulating exhaustion), berserker cannot turn invisible while Frenzy is active. It doesn't stack with itself, can only be active once per 8 rounds.

For some reason, I don't like how current version penalties to AC/Breath stack with Rage penalties (and become relatively irrelevant later on), so I substituted them for Luck penalty, which affects every damage roll berserker takes.

Deathless Frenzy removed as an innate, but instead merged with Frenzy as a level 20 upgrade to it.

I'm not sure how this will work out, but am playing a game as I write, with a berserker ofc.

This is too much to deal with, too heavy of a penalty. :(

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Demi, I think we have a problem with rage durations. SCS kitted fighters are scripted to use Rages every 10 rounds (berserker) and every 5 rounds (barbarian). With durations change, barbarians fail to use it.

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