Jump to content
Demivrgvs

Kit Revisions (Fighters)

Recommended Posts

Berseker
when (immunity to normal weapons while enraged) ability is achieved on 20th level (maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?) it's hard to achieve dualclass berserker/wizard who can do this. (and player who will level up as Berserker and then as mage only to do that...).
Eh, actually it's not so easy. The innate ability wouldn't care at which level you dualled the Berserker, and a Berserker 1/Mage 20 would get this feature.

:) I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but surely you could have a Berserker innate ability gained at 20th level that a Berserker 1/Mage 20 wouldn't receive... no?

Share this post


Link to post
Berseker
when (immunity to normal weapons while enraged) ability is achieved on 20th level (maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?) it's hard to achieve dualclass berserker/wizard who can do this. (and player who will level up as Berserker and then as mage only to do that...).
Eh, actually it's not so easy. The innate ability wouldn't care at which level you dualled the Berserker, and a Berserker 1/Mage 20 would get this feature.
:) I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but surely you could have a Berserker innate ability gained at 20th level that a Berserker 1/Mage 20 wouldn't receive... no?
Well, if it's a HLA... but it's not, the 'PfNW the Berserker gets' is an innate permanent effect gained at Berserkers 20 th level, so a Dualed mage wouldn't get it as it's not a HLA... anywhere else but at Berserkers level 20. Edited by Jarno Mikkola

Share this post


Link to post
Eh, actually it's not so easy. The innate ability wouldn't care at which level you dualled the Berserker, and a Berserker 1/Mage 20 would get this feature.

It's doable with replacing abilities with new ones (minor glitch that you've got your abilities refreshed when you gain a level) but I'm not sure about that being so necessary. This change doesn't have much impact, maybe we should leave something more powerfull for HLA. (something like dropping armor, immunity to +1 weapons, regeneration of 1hp per second and being non-killable = as True Berserk ability with fatigue effect of sleeping).

 

I just thought about a different way to implement Deathless Frenzy: a temporary immortality (via "min HP 1") followed by damage on expiration, either lethal or non-lethal (unconsciousness until healed) depending on how much user-friendly we want to be.

Well, I think that's good idea of HLA for most of the warriors (true fighter, barbarian and berserker) - being temporary immortal is very, very epic and fits very nicely.

 

Are you planning on using Enrage before talking to Ribald?

Just a cosmetic stuff.

RIIIBAAAALDD, GIIIIVEEE MEEE THIISS POTIOON OR A WILL KILL YAAA!!! SPARTAAA!

:)

 

Now, I've seen this "spellcaster's HLAs vs. non-spellcasters HLAs" quite a lot of times but I think most of you don't see this matter in the right prospective (I can always be wrong ). Fighters can't get an innate ability as powerful as a 9th level spell, simply because than you'd have an uber-tank with archmage-like abilities.

I don't want them to be powerfull as even 10th level spells. I want them to be unique and to give to a player a possibility of creating truely legendary warrior who can do something far better than 4th level spells. Think: how can you compare Whirlwind and "Frightful presence". :) I think that you shouldn't be trying to mimic lesser-level spells, just add something new which allows to enhance fighter's capabilities.

 

I always loved the idea of 'Tiers' for HLAs. As a Fighter you can get Melee, Ranged, Defense and Special (usually magic/anti-magic). As a Ranger you can get Melee, Ranged, Animals and Plants. Etc.

 

Psst, I think you should show us your thoughts about HLA system because it can be a lot of fun.

Share this post


Link to post

Berserker

The PnP Frenzied Berserker goes berserk when hit (with a save to avoid it), and that's what I was thinking, possibly in a way that works both as disadvantage and advantage
It might work. What is problematic, it means no healing potions during a tough fight, which again often results in death - Dragons, Demilich, Demogorgon, etc.
Well, I was thinking something like 5% chance when hit to go berserk, with a save to avoid, else you're going to be permanently enraged. If the damn "repeating EFF" opcode ever get fixed I'd even be able to tie it to % hit points left...but I can't.

 

P.S I just thought about a different way to implement Deathless Frenzy: a temporary immortality (via "min HP 1") followed by damage on expiration, either lethal or non-lethal (unconsciousness until healed) depending on how much user-friendly we want to be.
Like it too. Probably even better than NWN2's version. Since it lasts 1 turn - apparently long enough to abuse the feature (which was your thought in the first place, wasn't it?) - it can use a contingency, triggered at 10% HP, that reduces combat value a bit. I can't say I find it perfect though.
Yep, it should be abusable, else it would be pointless. :) From a PnP/RP point of view I'd go with of lethal damage at the end of the rage (even 1 point may be enough because you can't heal yourself during KR's rage), but even non-lethal damage may be fine, because if the fight is not over you have an unconscious berserk laying in the battlefield with 1 hp.

 

Conceptually your suggestion about reduced combat abilities when hp<10% is fine, but I'm not sure about it, and the damn broken opcode is always there.

 

Note that Deathless Frenzy won't replace the base Enrage, actually I think I may grant an additional use of Enrage per day as HLA, and only once/day use of the "improved version".

 

when (immunity to normal weapons while enraged) ability is achieved on 20th level (maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?) it's hard to achieve dualclass berserker/wizard who can do this. (and player who will level up as Berserker and then as mage only to do that...).
Eh, actually it's not so easy. The innate ability wouldn't care at which level you dualled the Berserker, and a Berserker 1/Mage 20 would get this feature.

:) I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but surely you could have a Berserker innate ability gained at 20th level that a Berserker 1/Mage 20 wouldn't receive... no?

No, because what was suggested was a "immunity to normal weapons" during rage, which means we're still using the starting innate gained at 1st level with a new header.

 

If the immunity is gained at xth lvl as a permanent feature, or at epic lvl as HLA then the dualled Berserker/Mage wouldn't get it.

Edited by Demivrgvs

Share this post


Link to post
Also: when ability is achieved on 20th level (maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?) it's hard to achieve dualclass berserker/wizard who can do this.
...No, because what was suggested was a "immunity to normal weapons" during rage, which means we're still using the starting innate gained at 1st level with a new header.

 

If the immunity is gained at xth lvl as a permanent feature, or at epic lvl as HLA then the dualled Berserker/Mage wouldn't get it.

Back to the original quote.

Well, it was suggested by yarpen that you only gain the improved rage after the 20th level(maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?)... and I am sure you know that you can replace the previously gained ability with another within the clabxxx.2da, by giving ability that removes the previous and then yet another that gives the better ability, as this is how the better enrage is actually given in the first place.

So no, the Berserker 1->Mage 20 wouldn't receive it. And I would suggest to give the feature at level 17...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola

Share this post


Link to post
Also: when ability is achieved on 20th level (maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?) it's hard to achieve dualclass berserker/wizard who can do this.
...No, because what was suggested was a "immunity to normal weapons" during rage, which means we're still using the starting innate gained at 1st level with a new header.

 

If the immunity is gained at xth lvl as a permanent feature, or at epic lvl as HLA then the dualled Berserker/Mage wouldn't get it.

Back to the original quote.

Well, it was suggested by yarpen that you only gain the improved rage after the 20th level(maybe a bit earlier? 15-17?)... and I am sure you know that you can replace the previously gained ability with another within the clabxxx.2da, by giving ability that removes the previous and then yet another that gives the better ability, as this is how the better enrage is actually given in the first place. So no, the Berserker 1->Mage 20 wouldn't receive it. And I would suggest to give the feature at level 17...

This is not how the better enrage is given in the first place because of one thing, the AI.

 

If I replace vanilla's innates with new ones with different filenames the AI will use the old ones instead of the new ones.

 

All innates within BG work as I've said, higher lvl headers in the same .spl file are used for the "improved" versions (e.g. thieves' traps, assassin's poison ability, ...).

 

So yes, a damn Berserker 1 -> Mage 20 gets the improved rage at 10th lvl.

 

 

Dualclassing

Just so you know, I hate the dual class system with all my heart, and I actually consider it "broken". Not only it allows the most overpowered combinations (e.g. Kensai-Mage, Kensai-Thief, ...) but it also works in a way which is both silly and annoying. The silly part is that you can have 5-7 levels in the first class almost for "free" considering how few xp points are required for the first levels compared to the higher ones, and the annoying part (which is also silly) is that for some reason the character completely forget the first class until the second one is higher than the former. "Yeah, I was a 7th lvl fighter who suddenly decided to study magic, now I can't even equip a sword because I don't know how to swing it anymore...should I hit with the hilt or the blade?"

 

A 7th lvl fighter dualled to mage should be considered an 8th lvl character and retain the abilities of a 7th lvl fighter. That's how this damn system should have worked! :)

 

End of the rant. :)

Edited by Demivrgvs

Share this post


Link to post
This is not how the better enrage is given in the first place because of one thing, the AI.

If I replace vanilla's innates with new ones with different filenames the AI will use the old ones instead of the new ones.

All innates within BG work as I've said, higher lvl headers in the same .spl file are used for the "improved" versions (e.g. thieves' traps, assassin's poison ability, ...).

So yes, a damn Berserker 1 -> Mage 20 gets the improved rage at 10th lvl.

Well then, how does the AI know what it's fighting with, and against? Cause if the same spell has different effects depending on caster level, it takes far more to actually know what the frack all the effects are... making the AI harder to make, and roll... it's lesser evil to have the AI berserker (are there any?), use the old version of the spell, as they have already been assigned them.

Share this post


Link to post
Well then, how does the AI know what it's fighting with, and against? Cause if the same spell has different effects depending on caster level, it takes far more to actually know what the frack all the effects are... making the AI harder to make, and roll... it's lesser evil to have the AI berserker (are there any?), use the old version of the spell, as they have already been assigned them.
:) Where's the problem? If the AI uses assasin's poison ability it gets better effects when the character is of higher level, and the same is for the "improved" enrage used by KR. There would be a problem if the same innate does two completely different things at different levels, but that's not the case, and I do want the AI to use KR's features.

 

There may be a solution. It's a little tricky but I could modify vanilla's innates (already assigned to the AI) to work as per KR within the same .spl, and then use custom .spl files for the kits. In this way players wouldn't be able to exploit the broken dualling system, and the AI would still get KR's improvements.

 

That's a lot of additional work only to block few exploits, but it should work.

Share this post


Link to post

Warning, selective quoting: :)

Well then, how does the AI know what it's fighting with, and against? ... it's lesser evil to have the AI, use the old version of the spell, as they have already been assigned them.
:) Where's the problem?
Let's take a possible encounter: The enemy mage Gates in a demon on top of the players group, and then as it's in a party of it's own, it casts Protection from Evil Radius x.

 

It works well and dandy in most cases, but then let's make a rule change, any demon creature Protected from Evil will be disintegrated, and that the Radius spell targets everyone. Now, the caster will be without the demon it just summoned, because it missed the rule change and that's bad. The same kind of scenario can be build with the 'how does the AI know whats it is fighting against'...

So if we change the rules for everyone, without noting it to the AI, the AI will never be able to correct it's behavior, not if DavidW doesn't make a separate check for each and every (curse words) spell changing mods change. Or you could make a new spell for the player, and the coming AI's that have the opportunity to select such things, if their creator might just like them.

 

Besides, there is even ways to let the player choose which version of the said spell he wishes to use, like describing it effects better. Yeah, no one said the ShadowKeeper wasn't available for those who wish to use the spells they wish. :) Besides, the game is far more modeable now that we do not have to consider the need to be within the 24 spells per level limit(Taimon's Hacks).

Edited by Jarno Mikkola

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry yarpen, I didn't notice your post and then this debate with Jarno took half the page. :) Speaking of which, Jarno, are you really comparing the changes I applied to Enrage (which gets a simple boost at 10th lvl) to something like turning Magic Circle Against Evil into a "mass disintegrate allied demons"?! :)

 

When I change something I always make sure pre-existing AI can handle it well, and sometimes I even have to let go certain ideas because of that.

 

 

Deathless Frenzy

I just thought about a different way to implement Deathless Frenzy: a temporary immortality (via "min HP 1") followed by damage on expiration, either lethal or non-lethal (unconsciousness until healed) depending on how much user-friendly we want to be.

Well, I think that's good idea of HLA for most of the warriors (true fighter, barbarian and berserker) - being temporary immortal is very, very epic and fits very nicely.

Actually I was suggesting it only for Berserkers...I'd like to have other classes act in different ways.

 

For example KR's barbarians doesn't lower their AC when enraged, on the contrary they do increase it, and they also have an innate high resistance at epic levels. Thus I don't want them to share the suicide-like behaviour of berserkers...barbarian's epic rage imo should turn them into a human whirlwing tornado, granting incredibly fast movements, high attack rate (e.g. set apr to 5), and freedom of movement.

 

HLAs

Now, I've seen this "spellcaster's HLAs vs. non-spellcasters HLAs" quite a lot of times but I think most of you don't see this matter in the right prospective (I can always be wrong ). Fighters can't get an innate ability as powerful as a 9th level spell, simply because than you'd have an uber-tank with archmage-like abilities.

I don't want them to be powerfull as even 10th level spells. I want them to be unique and to give to a player a possibility of creating truely legendary warrior who can do something far better than 4th level spells. Think: how can you compare Whirlwind and "Frightful presence". :) I think that you shouldn't be trying to mimic lesser-level spells, just add something new which allows to enhance fighter's capabilities.

You're right. In fact I wasn't saying that this ability must be an innate version of Cloak of Fear, but that it may work in a similar way.

 

I do think the "frightful presence" of a berserker is something we absolutely have to implement somehow, and an HLA was the first thing which come to my mind. We can do a lot of different things though:

- a single target gaze-like effect

- an instantaneous warcry-like effect

- an aura-like effect

The effect may be quite customized too:

- fear (very simple)

- penalties to thac0 and saves (or something like that)

- inability to move because of fear (but still able to fight)

- complete paralysis (like PnP mummies)

 

As I said it may be a non-HLA ability (depending on its effectiveness), but then you'd have to find me another HLA. :)

 

Psst, I think you should show us your thoughts about HLA system because it can be a lot of fun.
Will do. Anyway, it's quite simple...take Refinements as template and add a little more custom HLAs. Edited by Demivrgvs

Share this post


Link to post
Sorry yarpen, I didn't notice your post and then this debate with Jarno took half the page. :)
Sorry about that, but Demivrgvs gave me a bit of his little finger and I ran with it, typical Imp behavior.

 

Speaking of which, Jarno, are you really comparing the changes I applied to Enrage (which gets a simple boost at 10th lvl) to something like turning Magic Circle Against Evil into a "mass disintegrate allied demons"?! :)
Yes, and I don't think it's the first time either. :)

But I hope you get the idea where the problem lies, not a suggestion to "Do this, or...".

 

HLAs...

Anyway, it's quite simple...take Refinements as template and add a little more custom HLAs.

"... and let's talk about the Refinements ones, and cut the ones we are not happy with when I have proposed a template.", right?

Share this post


Link to post

I just wanted to toss an idea in that popped into my head. I haven't read all the posts, so my idea might be useful, or worthless.

 

Before starting my current game of BG1 I looked around and saw many people raving about Kensages, so I thought I'd try one, never having played a kensai. I must say that it's a lot less fun so far than I had imagined.

 

Kensai are warriors, so they're supposed to be up front killing things. However, they don't get armor, which is a major drawback. Now, if no armor was all they had, then charname could prolly fight until he was hit once and then run away. BUT, they also have no helmet, which means at any point a crit can come along and end your game. For no-reload games, that means that kensai simply can't be on the front lines.

 

In this case, most other characters would plink away with bows, but kensai can't use missile weapons either! Throwing axes could be useful as they use strength bonus, but they simply weigh far too much to be used. 50 lbs for 10 rounds of ammo?! Which means, that for basically all your low levels, kensai are going to be spending their whole time throwing daggers. It's pretty sad when the Bard tries to comfort you.

 

The critical problem that low level kensai suffer from is no helm and horrible AC. The -2 bonus is worthless at low levels ("ooh look, I'm AC 8!"), and the +1 hit/damage doesn't even start until 3rd level. What I propose will, I think, resolve all this.

 

Barbarians and rangers have special abilities, abilities that they lose when wearing heavy armor. I propose the same thing for kensai. Let kensai lose all class benefits when anything is in their armor slot. Since kensai don't need their abilities until later on though, letting them stock up on plate, helm and shield so they can survive the low levels seems a fair balance to me.

 

They'll basically be the same as any other fighter, who just can't use missile weapons. It's only later when they're midlevel and have some hit points under their belt, that they shuck their armor and start running around naked.

 

If you're looking for more penalties Demi and it hasn't already been suggested, you could restrict their weapon selections even more. They could get up to +++++ in all their weapons, but, being "sword saints" can only ever use bladed weapons. This means daggers, shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, katanas and greatswords. They can't even equip anything else. No Crom Faeyr for you!

 

Just some ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
I just wanted to toss an idea in that popped into my head. I haven't read all the posts, so my idea might be useful, or worthless.
You're welcome.

 

Kensai are warriors, so they're supposed to be up front killing things. However, they don't get armor, which is a major drawback. Now, if no armor was all they had, then charname could prolly fight until he was hit once and then run away. BUT, they also have no helmet, which means at any point a crit can come along and end your game. For no-reload games, that means that kensai simply can't be on the front lines.
That's why IR's kensais can use Bracers of Armor.

 

The critical problem that low level kensai suffer from is no helm and horrible AC. The -2 bonus is worthless at low levels ("ooh look, I'm AC 8!"), and the +1 hit/damage doesn't even start until 3rd level. What I propose will, I think, resolve all this.
IR's kensai get +1 to hit/dmg at 1st lvl.

 

If you're looking for more penalties Demi and it hasn't already been suggested, you could restrict their weapon selections even more. They could get up to +++++ in all their weapons, but, being "sword saints" can only ever use bladed weapons. This means daggers, shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, katanas and greatswords. They can't even equip anything else. No Crom Faeyr for you!
I do thought about it, but I'm pretty sure most players would hate such change.

 

The current extended description/lore I provide suggests that this class is actually the Weapon Master, while Kensai is the vestigial name used in Kara-tur, where this class "born". In kara-tur all weapon masters probably use bladed weapons such as the katana, but the western culture of Faerun developed the class in a slightly different direction.

Share this post


Link to post

It's just that Kensai NEED some good protection at low levels. -2 AC is not enough. Bracers are not enough. Kensai at low levels are extremely weak, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
It's just that Kensai NEED some good protection at low levels. -2 AC is not enough. Bracers are not enough. Kensai at low levels are extremely weak, IMO.
So? They have just began to master their style of fight.

A little kung fu boy is really weak at the beginning. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...