Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Kalindor]

As for the Archer, I think they should lose the animal summoning spells as well as summon insects. An additional +1 casting time penalty may also be in order. They are lucky they do not lose spellcasting entirely. I think they should keep animal empathy and hide in shadows personally.

[lynx]

I disagree, it's one of the few saveless options they have to compensate for lack of melee prowess. And they are rangers, it's not a fighter kit.

[Demivrgvs]

True Ranger

I'll share more details for the imminent release (this time around I'm 100% sure I can have it up around dinner), as I need to point out what has been changed or added, and most importantly what need to be tested.

 

When it comes to Rangers there's plenty of changes I already discussed or mentioned (e.g.the revised spellbook, armor restriction, d8 HD) but one thing I'm hoping to shape up to become a real class defining feature along with Tracking is the new Quarry ability.

 

Right now this ability works like this:

a) Quarry is gained at level 2 and is usable at will, though only once every 2 turns

b) the ability is a targeted ability which needs line of sight

c) casting time is 0 but the caster is "paused" (a la Aganazzar Scorching Ray) for 3 seconds

d) after that the target suffers Quarry's penalties for 2 turns (120 seconds), multiple Quarry effects from different rangers don't stack, nor these effects stack with SR's Know Opponent spell

 

Pretty much EVERYTHING about this ability need to be tested and might be changed depending on the feedback:

a) Would it be better as an x/day ability? Should it be gained later on to give the class a mid-level thing to look for, or will it be too defining for the class to be gained later?

b) I'm trying to have some sinergy with the other class defining features of this class, thus I'm taking into consideration the possibility of making allowing the ranger to target II creatures while using Tracking

c) The "pause" is there for many reasons. Conceptually it simulates the time the ranger need to study the target, gameplay-wise it's there to both raise the sinergy with ranger's Stealth skill (aka I hope the ability can be used while hiding without breaking it too soon) and balance the spell so it cannot be spammed during a fight

d) in terms of effects this ability currently is an almost perfect copy of SR's Know Opponent, plus Glitterdust inability to become invisible (I'm worried about the latter in particular being too powerful against SCS mages)

 

On a side note, one more thing I recently discovered that might be worth trying to test is ranger's Stealth skill itself. The relative skillrng.2da only list move_silently values, thus I'm wondering if that means the ranger actually lack a hide in shadows %. If yes, that means that the ranger actually has half the chances to use stealth than those listed (e.g. even at high levels it's never more than 50% + a small % based on DEX and race).

 

As for the Archer, I think they should lose the animal summoning spells as well as summon insects. An additional +1 casting time penalty may also be in order. They are lucky they do not lose spellcasting entirely. I think they should keep animal empathy and hide in shadows personally.

I disagree, it's one of the few saveless options they have to compensate for lack of melee prowess. And they are rangers, it's not a fighter kit.

Initially my plan was exactly what Kalindor says, but if the True Ranger ends up getting the uber improved animal empathy we have talked about, then having the Archer not getting this upgrade might be enough in terms of "nerfs".

[kreso]

True Ranger

 

a) Would it be better as an x/day ability? Should it be gained later on to give the class a mid-level thing to look for, or will it be too defining for the class to be gained later?

I really, really like bonuses/extras at 2nd level aka kensai +2 speed factor, I was gonna suggest that each kit gains something similar. I'm fine with it being on a 2nd level. Gameplay-wise, you'll probably want your Ranger fighting with a bow early on, so it will balance itself out (very few enemies have HP pools to last for a few rounds, and I'd rather have my Ranger spending time on fighting than Quarry).

Since it's (I'd guess) supposed to be a non-magical ability I'm fine with it being usable at will.

 

b) I'm trying to have some sinergy with the other class defining features of this class, thus I'm taking into consideration the possibility of making allowing the ranger to target II creatures while using Tracking

Not sure, but you may implement and we'll see how it plays out.

 

d) in terms of effects this ability currently is an almost perfect copy of SR's Know Opponent, plus Glitterdust inability to become invisible (I'm worried about the latter in particular being too powerful against SCS mages)

It might indeed cause some issues. I don't know if you could code it so it would make enemies unable to hide via potions, but still able to do via spells - even tough, SCS mages sometimes use potions for invisibility as well.

 

On a side note, one more thing I recently discovered that might be worth trying to test is ranger's Stealth skill itself. The relative skillrng.2da only list move_silently values, thus I'm wondering if that means the ranger actually lack a hide in shadows %. If yes, that means that the ranger actually has half the chances to use stealth than those listed (e.g. even at high levels it's never more than 50% + a small % based on DEX and race).

It's irrelevant, since Move Silently covers both HiS and MS in one skill. You don't need a single point in HiS to hide, even for thieves this skill is obsolete. Blame the developers...

[Demivrgvs]

Ranger's Quarry ability

a) Would it be better as an x/day ability? Should it be gained later on to give the class a mid-level thing to look for, or will it be too defining for the class to be gained later?

I really, really like bonuses/extras at 2nd level aka kensai +2 speed factor, I was gonna suggest that each kit gains something similar.

In the long run I'll probably try to do that, but ideally with small things because the gap between level 1 and 2 is already huge just by counting thac0 and hp advancement (200% hp and almost all classes get +1 thac0).

 

I'm fine with it being on a 2nd level. Gameplay-wise, you'll probably want your Ranger fighting with a bow early on, so it will balance itself out (very few enemies have HP pools to last for a few rounds, and I'd rather have my Ranger spending time on fighting than Quarry).

Since it's (I'd guess) supposed to be a non-magical ability I'm fine with it being usable at will.

Yeah, the whole point of forcing a "pause" on the ranger to study the target is there to make sure that even if you could spam the ability you're not actually doing it unless there's a tough opponent or you are scouting the area and use it as the opening move for an encounter.

 

Regarding non-magical abilities having "at will" uses, I kinda agree, but we have plenty of them using x/day uses for balance purposes (e.g. Rage, Called Shots, etc.). It all comes down to find the best compromise between concept and balance.

 

d) in terms of effects this ability currently is an almost perfect copy of SR's Know Opponent, plus Glitterdust inability to become invisible (I'm worried about the latter in particular being too powerful against SCS mages)

It might indeed cause some issues. I don't know if you could code it so it would make enemies unable to hide via potions, but still able to do via spells - even tough, SCS mages sometimes use potions for invisibility as well.

If it proves "game-breaking" I can indeed remove or limit it. When it comes to restricting it though I have to say that my hands are semi-tied:

- I can impose a huge hide penalty, but are there opponents actually using it?

- I can block invisibility via potions only if IR is installed (because IR makes potion work via spl)

 

Stealth skill

On a side note, one more thing I recently discovered that might be worth trying to test is ranger's Stealth skill itself. The relative skillrng.2da only list move_silently values, thus I'm wondering if that means the ranger actually lack a hide in shadows %. If yes, that means that the ranger actually has half the chances to use stealth than those listed (e.g. even at high levels it's never more than 50% + a small % based on DEX and race).

It's irrelevant, since Move Silently covers both HiS and MS in one skill. You don't need a single point in HiS to hide, even for thieves this skill is obsolete. Blame the developers...

I know, my point is that we need to discover if "stealth 100%" means "move silently 100% AND hide 100%" or just "move silently 100%" as the 2da seems to suggest. It makes a huge difference because it would mean that right now a ranger maxes out with a chance around 50-60% when wearing no armor. Edited December 5, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[lynx]

stealth as one stat is from bg1 engine days and as far as I remember the hide in shadows action code (maybe in the iesdp archive) just uses an average of the two. There could be an exception for rangers and monks in there, but I am not aware of it.

[kreso]

Regarding non-magical abilities having "at will" uses, I kinda agree, but we have plenty of them using x/day uses for balance purposes (e.g. Rage, Called Shots, etc.). It all comes down to find the best compromise between concept and balance.

I agree, and I think there is a distinction between Rages/Called Shots and Quarry. Rages/CS are instant - you gain benefits the moment you use them. Quarry takes a while - and it's obviously an anti-boss ability. It's my belief that "at will" abilities are "better" in sense that it doesn't force the players to rest that often.

 

[

I can impose a huge hide penalty, but are there opponents actually using it?

Good question. If they do, it's a rare occurence - SCS usually relies on potions or invisibility in a minor spell trigger.

 

I can block invisibility via potions only if IR is installed (because IR makes potion work via spl)

Fine with me .

Completely unrelated, but I hope you know that Invisibility is hands-down the single best spell defensive spell in BG1, and a mage spamming it can solo the game without defeating more than 7 enemies. My proposal would be to nerf the duration of spell/potion/10' radius drastically (2-3 rounds). It would also have a side-effect of making Stealth a rather useful skill, since now it's almost obsolete by a 2nd level spell which has no check needed and lasts forever. At 3rd, it gets AoE version which is insane, since 99,1% of BG1 enemies have no means to detect you.

 

Stealth skill

I know, my point is that we need to discover if "stealth 100%" means "move silently 100% AND hide 100%" or just "move silently 100%" as the 2da seems to suggest. It makes a huge difference because it would mean that right now a ranger maxes out with a chance around 50-60% when wearing no armor.

I've tested it now with a Human ranger (KR) in EE2-ToB, 14 DEX, level 16. He succeeded in hiding 100% in 10 attempts in broad daylight. Don't worry about it - it just makes light armor more appealing.

[Kalindor]

Quarry sounds interesting. I like the idea of it preventing enemies from going invisible, but I do see what you mean about SCS mages. I think one possible compromise is to make the Stalker's Quarry ability special in that it prevents enemies from going invisible, whereas the other Rangers' Quarry abilities do not. This would be a good opportunity to make the Stalker more unique and seems to fit his kit name. We were looking for ways to make him more distinct anyway.

 

*Edit: This would also make it rather acceptable to foobar SCS mage defenses since it would be such a limited scenario.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Kalindor

[kreso]

I think one possible compromise is to make the Stalker's Quarry ability special in that it prevents enemies from going invisible, whereas the other Rangers' Quarry abilities do not.

I like the idea very much...and I believe Stalker is an awesome kit even without it. Since now he'll get a slew of new spells, I think this might make him a very upgraded version of the True class. He'd be getting tailored spells, better stealth, backstab, anti-invisibilty skill and would loose on heavy weapons (which he doesn't really need) and medium armor (he never had it anyway).

Conceptually, I like it.

I fear it could be very powerful (negative resistance +backstab) for a single character to have.

And I don't know if Stalker will be getting Quarry in the first place, or it will be True Ranger unique feature.

[Demivrgvs]

Quarry

I think one possible compromise is to make the Stalker's Quarry ability special in that it prevents enemies from going invisible, whereas the other Rangers' Quarry abilities do not.

I like the idea very much...

The idea has some merit, I similarly thought to give the Stalker a slightly better Tracking skill, but overall it's just a matter of discovering if the anti-invisibility effect can be handled by the AI or not. I fear the AI will be too much crippled by it, and in that case neither the True Ranger nor the Stalker should get it. We'll see.

 

Btw, it's not like Quarry would be useless without it, it would still be a very effective ability imo. Removing it would just be a real shame concept-wise, though limiting it to a "hide in shadows penalty" could at least preserve the concept (albeit with no real in-game use).

 

Stalker

Since now he'll get a slew of new spells, I think this might make him a very upgraded version of the True class. He'd be getting tailored spells, better stealth, backstab, anti-invisibilty skill and would loose on heavy weapons (which he doesn't really need) and medium armor (he never had it anyway).

Conceptually, I like it.

I fear it could be very powerful (negative resistance +backstab) for a single character to have.

And I don't know if Stalker will be getting Quarry in the first place, or it will be True Ranger unique feature.

I have your same concerns, but in time we will balance both classes imo. I might not even mind to remove Quarry from the Stalker. The way I see it it's more about Stealth, and Tracking + Backstab is enough to define the class in terms of gameplay, and Quarry might remain a True Ranger only much like Called Shots are True Fighter only.

 

Regarding the custom tailored spells, I made few last second changes before releasing b19:

- loses Blades of Fire (not-stealthy) in exchange for Camouflage (which is pretty much a copy of 3E Assassin's Swift Invisibility)

- loses Snare (he does not wait for his prey, he actively hunt it) in exchange for Briar Web (fast casting single target entangle + piercing damage)

- I removed Hunter's Eye (no one liked the name, most of you already complained about it in various ways, and getting +1 backstab via spell at level 8 when you get a permanent +1 at level 9 sounded strange for some reason - it's is still there though, just in case)

I think it should lose a 3rd and a 4th lvl spell in exchange for his own two, but we'll see.

[kreso]

I think it should lose a 3rd and a 4th lvl spell in exchange for his own two, but we'll see.

Summons.

[kreso]

Quarry's "unability to go invisible" indeed causes AI problems - they cannot detect the effect and still try to go invisible. I'd remove this feature (or make it usable only on thieves, but definitely not mages - it's a complete deal-breaker). I'd make it scale a bit (level 10, +1 or 2 AC penalty and additional -5% resistance).

[Kalindor]

Is it possible for Quarry to allow the user to target the foe through his invisibility without preventing him from going invisible?

[Demivrgvs]

Quarry

Quarry's "unability to go invisible" indeed causes AI problems - they cannot detect the effect and still try to go invisible. I'd remove this feature (or make it usable only on thieves, but definitely not mages - it's a complete deal-breaker)..

I kinda expected this. I forgot that we may try one thing, as SCS (not sure about RR) actually takes into account SR's Glitterdust using a local variable (if you look at SR's Glitterdust you will see a "set local variable - dvgldust" and a delayed "cast spell" to reset the variable to 0), but even if that might eventually prevent mages from wasting time trying to go invisible I would still fear that this feature could be too powerful against SCS mages (note that the similar effect of SR's Glitterdust lasts only 4 rounds and allows a save).

 

I'd make it scale a bit (level 10, +1 or 2 AC penalty and additional -5% resistance)

I'm not convinced about scaling %, that's why I made SR's Armor of Faith not scale. A fixed % resistance scale by itself when advancing in the game because everyone deals more damage later. Othoh, scaling AC makes sense because a fixed AC value becomes increasingly less effective when everyone gets better thac0.

 

Is it possible for Quarry to allow the user to target the foe through his invisibility without preventing him from going invisible?

Not against a single target, it would allow the ranger to target any invisible creature, not just his quarry.

 

On a side note, perhaps I'm too much worried, but do you think Quarry has the potential to remain a cool ability even if it cannot be used while hiding in shadows?

[kreso]

Quarry

 

On a side note, perhaps I'm too much worried, but do you think Quarry has the potential to remain a cool ability even if it cannot be used while hiding in shadows?

Yeah, for as long as "Know oponnent" doesn't keep resistance-lowering feature. My bigger concern about it (as it is now) is that it makes Tracking skill pretty useless.