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Kit Revisions (Rangers)


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- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby......
unless the animal is hit by the player.

Yes I know, but if you don't hit them, they are neutral to rangers/druids. To other classes they are directly hostile (at the moment I know only that this depends on bears...: - Bears get not hostile if a Ranger is nearby)

 

 

Another thing and this is only my opinion:

I don't like the "Track Reading (I hope that's in English)" as a HLA. You get it very late in the game and compared to the other HLAs it is not a real HLA for me. This should be a normal ability for a ranger. Why he can't read tracks earlier? Is it so hard for a ranger? Normally, I think not.

 

 

Greetings Leomar

Edited by Leomar
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Tracking

Another thing and this is only my opinion:

I don't like the "Track Reading (I hope that's in English)" as a HLA. You get it very late in the game and compared to the other HLAs it is not a real HLA for me. This should be a normal ability for a ranger. Why he can't read tracks earlier? Is it so hard for a ranger? Normally, I think not.

I think this is a very good idea! Considering I'm going to chance each and every HLA table making this far from powerful ability available as a "normal" ranger feature seems logical. Similar to Refinements we could also allow a ranger (once reached a certain level perhaps) to detect invisible creatures in the area following their tracks.
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- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby......
unless the animal is hit by the player.
Yes I know, but if you don't hit them, they are neutral to rangers/druids. To other classes they are directly hostile (at the moment I know only that this depends on bears...: - Bears get not hostile if a Ranger is nearby)
There is also some dogs, wolves and other animals that belong to the True Neutral category that do respond with the Rangers none hostile action in BG1 part of the whole Megamod, but they are pretty rare, as the animal needs to be none hostile to start with, which most of the bears are, the others need to be "re-build".

 

I don't like the "Track Reading (I hope that's in English)" as a HLA. You get it very late in the game and compared to the other HLAs it is not a real HLA for me. This should be a normal ability for a ranger. Why he can't read tracks earlier? Is it so hard for a ranger? Normally, I think not.
Tracking, yes... and I think that the exact ability is given to the PC(no matter what the class is) a lot earlier than as a HLA by at least one mod. The harder matter is that not all maps have the map flag that says what the ranger or anyone else is able to see in the tracks about the areas inhabitants. Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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Archer

I think the Archer kit was quite well implemented, with decent disadvantages and not uber powerful advantages (though in the right hands this kit literally rocks imo). There are only a few things I'd like to discuss: 1) +1 hit/damage progression and 2) Called Shot

 

1) is the current progression fine for BG1? Should we make it start at 1st level?

 

2) I didn't liked most of the effect applied to a called shot (e.g. why on earth a ranged hit on a target's weak spot should cause a penalty to saves vs. magic?!), and I replaced them long ago with effects more similar to what a called shot would cause in PnP. Secondly, a called shot in PnP is made at -4 penalty to attack rolls, to simulate the difficulty in targeting a specific part of the target.

 

Vanilla Called Shot (last 10 seconds each attack has the following effects depending on character level)

*4th level: -1 to THAC0 of target -- may be raised to -2 if we implement the -4 penalty to thaco

*8th level: -1 Save vs. Magic of target -- ehm...

*12th level: -1 Strength of target -- I know powerplayers liked to exploit it

*16th level: +2 damage bonus -- when your only other unique feature raise damage as you level up, why should this do the very same thing?

 

Revised Called Shot (last 2 rounds - 12 seconds)

*4th level: -1 to THAC0 of target for x rounds -- unchanged, I suppose the target here is the arm

*8th level: target's movement rate is halved for x rounds -- less exploitable, more appropriate, still quite effective imo

*12th level: -1 to dexterity of target for x rounds -- would you prefer a penalty to AC?

*16th level: stun target for 1 round -- a save or a % chance is much needed imo

 

P.S ironically vanilla's .eff files were already named archhit.eff, archslow.eff, archmov.eff, and archstun.eff. :crazyeyes:

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The harder matter is that not all maps have the map flag that says what the ranger or anyone else is able to see in the tracks about the areas inhabitants.
That's not a difficult matter. Frankly speaking, to a certain degree it can be algorithmized to attend every area present in game.

 

Archer

1) I'd start with the 1st level, yes

2) 12th - just as with STR it can prove itself disappointing. What about lowering ApR by 1/2?

Edited by Ardanis
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Tracking

The harder matter is that not all maps have the map flag that says what the ranger or anyone else is able to see in the tracks about the areas inhabitants.
That's not a difficult matter. Frankly speaking, to a certain degree it can be algorithmized to attend every area present in game.
It's not a priority imo, but it would be cool to assign a more appropriate description to each area.

 

Archer

1) I'd start with the 1st level, yes

2) 12th - just as with STR it can prove itself disappointing. What about lowering ApR by 1/2?

1) Thus something like +1 at 1st level than +1 at levels 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th.

2) yeah, it seems appropriate, but -1/2 apr is devastating against non fighter classes imo, and even against fighters with 3-4 attacks per round you'd be taking away 2 full attacks per round, pratically nullifying target's apr. Ability score draining effect must be handled with caution, but at least DEX can't be used as in combo with Ray of Enfeeblement, which was an uber-exploit indeed. :crazyeyes:

 

P.S Should we add a 1st level effect to Called Shot, or it's better to give its first use at 4th level?

Edited by Demivrgvs
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Tracking
That's not a difficult matter. Frankly speaking, to a certain degree it can be algorithmized to attend every area present in game.
It's not a priority imo, but it would be cool to assign a more appropriate description to each area.
But the problem become with BGT etc, large mods that do not have the flags and if you use the count of creatures, there are several mods that alter the areas creature counts, and to me, the desciption should be somewhat unique to area...

 

Archer

2) yeah, it seems appropriate, but -1/2 apr is devastating against non fighter classes imo, and even against fighters with 3-4 attacks per round you'd be taking away 2 full attacks per round, pratically nullifying target's apr. Ability score draining effect must be handled with caution...

So why not make the effect none cumulative with itself, just with itself.
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But the problem become with BGT etc, large mods that do not have the flags and if you use the count of creatures, there are several mods that alter the areas creature counts, and to me, the desciption should be somewhat unique to area...
Check tracking.2da in iesdp. Coding wise, one only needs to read area's actors's data and generate a string. What can be problematic is how to handle creatures added by the script. It looks difficult to me to differentiate those spawned 'OnCreation()' and those who're a part of a quest.
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Called Shot

2) yeah, it seems appropriate, but -1/2 apr is devastating against non fighter classes imo, and even against fighters with 3-4 attacks per round you'd be taking away 2 full attacks per round, pratically nullifying target's apr. Ability score draining effect must be handled with caution...
So why not make the effect none cumulative with itself, just with itself.
Well...with some work it should be doable, but I wouldn't like to make it a "special case" (the description would have to mention that only this effect is not cumulative, and I'm not sure there would be an explanation for it).

 

Anyway, except a few things regarding Called Shot (e.g. have we to make it available at 1st level?), I'd say the Archer kit is done. Am I missing something? We may add a +5% chance to score critical hits at 15th level similarly to Kensai, but I'll let you decide as this kit was already good imo, and with 4th level spells+SR it's going to be even better. Its disadvantages aren't so big to justify big improvements imo.

 

Stalker

Again a fine kit imo, though slightly less powerful than the Archer and clearly inferior to a Fighter/Thief.

 

Let's see what can be discussed...

 

1) Am I blind or this kit has not a single noticeable difference over a ranger at low levels? (only +20% to hide)

 

2) Should the kit reach a backstab multiplier of x4 instead of x3 in order to be competitive compared to a F/T? :crazyeyes:

 

3) What about revising the small arcane repertoire at Stalker's disposal? I'd go with a spell per spell level instead of 3 for the 3rd only. Good candidates imo would be spells like True Strike, Invisibility, Non-Detection, and if we let rangers use 4th level spells (I think we will), Improved Invisibility. This should make the Stalker quite appealing even without a backstab multiplier as high as the F/T.

 

4) I'd say we should implement an actual disadvantage to this kit (it's simply limited to light armor, which is not so noticeable for a ranger imo, even less if IR is installed). In PnP this class is limited to weapons that can be easily concealed (short swords, daggers, and the like), but I fear that would be too much (especially for Valygar :) ). What about allowing it to use only weapons available to thieves?

Edited by Demivrgvs
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Using weapons only usable by thieves means only having weapons which you can backstab with, ergo, not much of a penalty. The concealable weapons I like, and Valygar can still have his Katana, as it would be unchanged.

 

How about:

Having a poison weapon, but lesser than the Assassin's?

Having an increased Hide modifier?

Having a slight mobility increase?

For a disadvantage, only using one-handed weapons (but can still dual-wield)?

 

Icen

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For both the Archer and Stalker can you not allow the use of shields or would you have to take away shield use from the basic ranger as well?

 

I'm thinking that both the Archer and Stalker wouldn't want to be encumbered by a shield or at the least nothing larger than a buckler...

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Called Shot

It's not that effective as Kai or Rage, so I guess it may be allowed at 1st level.

 

+1 crit chance, hmm. Kit indeed isn't weak, but it progresses in levels at a slower pace than kensai; later in game it's generally melee that pwns people, not shooting; and kensai can have both damage bonus and extra crit bonus from weapon styles. All together, it probably can justify that +1.

 

Stalker

1, 3, 4 - indeed. 2 - has a logic, but imo goes to being too close to F/T.

 

No clues about new features, though...

For both the Archer and Stalker can you not allow the use of shields or would you have to take away shield use from the basic ranger as well?
Basic class has it's own bit, so yes. I support the idea too. Edited by Ardanis
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Archer

+1 crit chance, hmm. Kit indeed isn't weak, but it progresses in levels at a slower pace than kensai; later in game it's generally melee that pwns people, not shooting; and kensai can have both damage bonus and extra crit bonus from weapon styles. All together, it probably can justify that +1.
Ok, I'd say at 15th level it should be fine.

 

Called Shot

It's not that effective as Kai or Rage, so I guess it may be allowed at 1st level.
Fine with me, now we have to find a fifth effect for it. :)

 

Stalker

1)Using weapons only usable by thieves means only having weapons which you can backstab with, ergo, not much of a penalty. The concealable weapons I like, and Valygar can still have his Katana, as it would be unchanged.

 

How about:

2)Having a poison weapon, but lesser than the Assassin's?

3) Having an increased Hide modifier?

4) Having a slight mobility increase?

5) For a disadvantage, only using one-handed weapons (but can still dual-wield)?

1) Well, I wouldn't consider having a ranger class unable to use flails, maces, spears, two-handed swords, axes, and so on as "not much of a penalty". I actually feared that many players would have been against such a noticeable disadvantage, but I'm always glad to see there are a lot of players who like to roleplay instead of powerplay. :crazyeyes:

2) AD&D rangers are almost paladin-like, and I can't see them having a poison-like ability as class feature.

3) stalker already has a +20% bonus, a higher bonus would only be noticeable at very low levels, but we may opt for it if we can't find any other feature to assign in the first few levels.

4) Yeah, that would be useful and appropriate for this class, I'm for it.

5) ehm...isn't 1) much more restrictive?

 

1, 3, 4 - indeed. 2 - has a logic, but imo goes to being too close to F/T.
Fine with me, and with the additional pro-stealth spells stalker would still has its advantages over a F/T while being more unique.

 

Restrictions

For both the Archer and Stalker can you not allow the use of shields or would you have to take away shield use from the basic ranger as well?

 

I'm thinking that both the Archer and Stalker wouldn't want to be encumbered by a shield or at the least nothing larger than a buckler...

Basic class has it's own bit, so yes. I support the idea too.
Yeah, it seems very appropriate for both classes. I'm for it. We're going to make a lot of usability changes (I'm sure Mike will kill me for this :) ). Edited by Demivrgvs
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Yes, 1) is more restrictive, but it was as a sort of 'lighter' version, so as to provide a noticeable disadvantage that wasn't extremely harsh on power players.

 

As a Stalker (and I have played quite a few), the majority of damage comes from Backstabs, so I tend to use weapons a thief can backstab with effectively.

 

Assassination as a HLA?

 

For 3), I meant a better gain in points/level, to keep increasing, instead of having a larger starting boost. :crazyeyes:

 

For the Archer, having a sort of Snipe ability, which would provide a critical hit (and possibly a backstab) for one hit. :)

 

Icen

 

Icen

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Archer

I know that Called Shot is ready and finished, but I wanted to present my revision of it from my old mod known as PnP Baldur's Gate. So here it is

 

- Every 4 levels he gains the ability to make an aimed shot once per day. When he activates this ability, any shot made within the next 10 seconds is augmented in the following manner (according to the choice of the archer).

- Eyes: saving throw vs. wands or blindness for 5 rounds (-4 to ThaC0 for archer)

- Arms: cumulative -2 to ThaC0 for 10 rounds (-2 to ThaC0 for archer)

- Legs: saving throw vs. wands or slow for 3 rounds (-2 to ThaC0 for archer)

- Heart: critical hit (-4 to ThaC0 for archer)

So maybe there is other way of revising it? Instead of level dependable effects (and that's strange, at 16th level he hits at once on hands, legs, head and etc. ;-) ) you can give to player a chance of selecting limb/part of body as in Fallouts.

 

Stalker

He needs more mobility, bonuses to hide in shadows dependable on levels (+5% per 2 levels?) and removing these stupid spells. They were one of strangest things even did in kits - and at level when ranger gain 3rd level spells they were practiccaly unuseful. I think that trade'ing these spells and possibility of using non-thieves items for better bonuses to Hide in shadows, permanent non-detection at higher levels and better movements speed can be nice. :crazyeyes:

 

Beast Master

I'm waiting especially for this kit. Probably the weakest one in-game but such a roleplaying - can't wait to see your revisions of it. :)

Edited by yarpen
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