Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Pacek]

Minsc is unable to cast spells in the regular game, so there is no issues.

He can in my game, am I missing something?

 

But this is a Kit Revision mod, why aren't we talking about the KITS, but the class ?

Because base classes are up for revision as well. And if you say "a ranger needs a wisdom of x to cast divine spells" then you are really only affecting 1 ranger in the entire game. And you could argue that Minsc's berserk ability already balances any disability he might get regarding loss of spells.

[Demivrgvs]

Minsc is unable to cast spells in the regular game, so there is no issues.

He can in my game, am I missing something?

Yeah, you're missing what the bigg once told me, that "half the imp says is wrong".

 

But this is a Kit Revision mod, why aren't we talking about the KITS, but the class ?

Because base classes are up for revision as well.

Base classes are the base (forgive the pun) upon which kits are built, thus they're actually a quite critical aspect of KR.

[Dermit]

Two suggestions for the Ranger:

 

First, take away the two free points in Two-Weapon Style and give the Ranger two free weapon proficiency points at first level instead. To balance that out the proficiency development of the Ranger could be changed to one every four levels. That would simulate the idea of a warrior specialized in a weapon of choice (longbow, spear etc.) while not approaching the level of sophistication and diversity a fighter can. This would be a little bit closer to the 3.5 Weapon Styles path which was a step in the right direction for Rangers IMO. Unfortunately that would go for all Ranger kits, so the base class would still end up looking kind of dull.

 

Also why not tweak the stealth tables a bit to offer smoother and earlier progression so that stealth can be used to greater effect?

[Demivrgvs]

Two suggestions for the Ranger:

 

1) First, take away the two free points in Two-Weapon Style and give the Ranger two free weapon proficiency points at first level instead. To balance that out the proficiency development of the Ranger could be changed to one every four levels. That would simulate the idea of a warrior specialized in a weapon of choice (longbow, spear etc.) while not approaching the level of sophistication and diversity a fighter can. This would be a little bit closer to the 3.5 Weapon Styles path which was a step in the right direction for Rangers IMO. Unfortunately that would go for all Ranger kits, so the base class would still end up looking kind of dull.

 

2) Also why not tweak the stealth tables a bit to offer smoother and earlier progression so that stealth can be used to greater effect?

1) It's not doable unless A64 works on this too creating an apposite hack. That being said, while I'd surely remove it from the Archer kit, I wouldn't remove it from all rangers as its a defining feature of AD&D rangers. Actually, we discussed here to add them an on hit ability to further increase the appeal of dual wielding rangers.

 

2) I do agree on this. Low lvl rangers should be able to use stealth much more consistently, especially Stalkers.

[Dermit]

1) It's not doable unless A64 works on this too creating an apposite hack. That being said, while I'd surely remove it from the Archer kit, I wouldn't remove it from all rangers as its a defining feature of AD&D rangers. Actually, we discussed here to add them an on hit ability to further increase the appeal of dual wielding rangers.

 

2) I do agree on this. Low lvl rangers should be able to use stealth much more consistently, especially Stalkers.

 

Yeah I thought it might be hardcoded, but it had been so long since I'd looked at the game files I thought it was possible after looking at the prof 2das. Moot point, but I've never gotten why Rangers and two weapons go together (Drizzt aside and that seems like a weak reason). It fits with a class like Swashbuckler, but what about a wilderness warrior/hunter/defender/scout suggests this rather fantastic fighting style? From a gameplay standpoint a melee style doesn't fit so well for a light armored class, scouting and bow skill seem more appropriate. Oh well, the D&D gods decided this one some time ago.

[SixOfSpades]

Oh well, the D&D gods decided this one some time ago.

The D&D gods also decided that the school of Illusion should be opposed to . . . Necromancy.

[Guest DeathKnight]

Why not add something that would make sense for the general ranger to make him good without kits and having to touch racial enemy bonus. Something like this-

 

At 1st level rangers get study enemy. This ability allows the ranger to study any enemy (prefer while stealthed) while waiting 5 seconds. After the 5 seconds are up you get a +1 to hit and damage against that specific opponent. When i say opponent i mean that enemy, not that race. The bonus lasts for 5 rounds and is available from level 1. It will also get a boost of +1 every 5 levels, so +1 at lvl 1, +2 at lvl 5, etc.

 

The reason this would work is that rangers are known to study their opponent for weaknesses. If this could be implemented that would be awesome.

[leania]

I compared Archer with Kensai and I noticed that Archer is a little more powerful than Kensai.

 

Archar can be said as ranged Kensai.

 

AC bonuses against melee weapons + can not wear armors = can only wear light armor

Kai = Called shot

Can grandmaster main weapons (Kensai: melee weapon, Archer: Bows)

Same dmg/THAC0 bonuses per 4levels

Can not use shields

Can not use missile weapons = can only become proficient in melee weapons

 

However, Archer still has some advantages, such as Stealth ability, Racial Enemy, And Druid spell casting ability (Yes, I know Kensai also have an advantages, +5% critical hit score).

 

As you mentioned that Paladin would be allowed to start casting spells earlier, Rangers should become like that. Then, Archer seems very overpowered imo. Even if Archer has additional disadvantage that can not cast spells, Archer is still better than Kensai or at least same as Kensai, isn't he?

[leania]

And, since you are considering adding animal summoning spells at each level in SRv4, Beastmaster's 'Animal Horde' ability may be very similar to the spells. I think it would be better to change the other abilities such as battle cry which encourages animals.

Edited July 19, 2012 by leania

[Demivrgvs]

Archer vs. Kensai

I compared Archer with Kensai and I noticed that Archer is a little more powerful than Kensai.

 

Archar can be said as ranged Kensai.

 

AC bonuses against melee weapons + can not wear armors = can only wear light armor

Kai = Called shot

Can grandmaster main weapons (Kensai: melee weapon, Archer: Bows)

Same dmg/THAC0 bonuses per 4levels

Can not use shields

Can not use missile weapons = can only become proficient in melee weapons

 

However, Archer still has some advantages, such as Stealth ability, Racial Enemy, And Druid spell casting ability (Yes, I know Kensai also have an advantages, +5% critical hit score).

 

As you mentioned that Paladin would be allowed to start casting spells earlier, Rangers should become like that. Then, Archer seems very overpowered imo. Even if Archer has additional disadvantage that can not cast spells, Archer is still better than Kensai or at least same as Kensai, isn't he?

Man I was doing the very same comparison a bunch of days ago! Anyway, I got to almost the same conclusion.

 

To complete your analysis I may add:

* the Archer need more experience to level up. It's not a huge thing, but being a couple of levels behind does mean something, especially at mid-levels. I'd say this might "off-set" Archer's Stealth ability, Racial Enemy, and an eventual Tracking ability.

* Being restricted to a single weapon type (bows) is much more limiting than being unable to use missiles but still allowed to use ANY type of melee weapon, but while a Kensai cannot even wield any ranged weapon, the Archer can use any melee weapon, though with very little proficiency.

* Kensai's melee AC doesn't fully compensate the inability to wear light armors. They may end up with a similar AC (though a Kensai may actually have better melee AC if he has a good pair of Bracers of Armor, and in my current build they are also getting Defensive Stance to further boost it), but the Archer will be much more protected against missiles, and IR's armors come with nasty special abilities too. Adding to that, the Archer doesn't have to "waste" his arm slot for a pair of Bracers of Armor (aka he can wear baracers or gauntlets to boost other stats/abilities), and can wear helmets too!

 

Short story: yes, the Archer kit should probably give up his "spellbook", especially considering spells and medium/heavy armor are almost the only thing a True Ranger currently have over this kit (They also get spec ++, but they don't get grandmestery in anything), while the Archer get a permanent/passive +5 to hit/dmg and a good x/day ability.

 

Compared to vanilla the Archer kit could look nerfed in the described scenario (it's almost as before but with no spells) but KR's Called Shot should be a much more useful/effective ability (counting as multiple abilities), and hopefully I'll manage to improve the Racial Enemy aspect too.

 

Beast Master

And, since you are considering adding animal summoning spells at each level in SRv4, Beastmaster's 'Animal Horde' ability may be very similar to the spells. I think it would be better to change the other abilities such as battle cry which encourages animals.

Well, for this kit I actually thought to focus more on the Animal Companion part (his pet should be a truly viable ally in combat, and if possible I'd like to add some sort of "sinergy" between the two), rather than animal summons. That being said, your idea has some merit, and I also considered the possibility of removing standard spells here too, in exchange for dedicated innate abilities to summon and boost animals.

 

Btw, I never understood which is more correct between "Beast Master" and "Beastmaster". Mmm...

[leania]

Archer vs. Kensai

To complete your analysis I may add:

* Kensai's melee AC doesn't fully compensate the inability to wear light armors. They may end up with a similar AC (though a Kensai may actually have better melee AC if he has a good pair of Bracers of Armor, and in my current build they are also getting Defensive Stance to further boost it), but the Archer will be much more protected against missiles, and IR's armors come with nasty special abilities too. Adding to that, the Archer doesn't have to "waste" his arm slot for a pair of Bracers of Armor (aka he can wear baracers or gauntlets to boost other stats/abilities), and can wear helmets too!

 

Oh, yes. You are right. Kensai's AC boost bonus is very good imo even when Kensai get Defensive/Offensive Stance. But you know, Light armor can give not only AC bonus but also additional statistics bonuses such as +APR (Grandmaster's Armor +5)! And as you mentioned, Helmets also can give more merit potentially... Hmm... Oh, I forgot that Kensai can use Ioun Stones, haha.

 

Short story: yes, the Archer kit should probably give up his "spellbook", especially considering spells and medium/heavy armor are almost the only thing a True Ranger currently have over this kit (They also get spec ++, but they don't get grandmestery in anything), while the Archer get a permanent/passive +5 to hit/dmg and a good x/day ability.

 

Yup, I agree with you. Archer may need not to cast spells. The kit is already powerful enough imo.

 

Compared to vanilla the Archer kit could look nerfed in the described scenario (it's almost as before but with no spells) but KR's Called Shot should be a much more useful/effective ability (counting as multiple abilities), and hopefully I'll manage to improve the Racial Enemy aspect too.

 

Exactly. KR's Called Shot is really great idea. The ability would make Archer more unique, not ranged Kensai.

 

Beast Master

Btw, I never understood which is more correct between "Beast Master" and "Beastmaster". Mmm...

 

Oops... I'm sorry about my misused spelling. Because my mother language is not English, I have mistook to use words/terms frequently...

Edited July 19, 2012 by leania

[Grammarsalad]

It might be interesting to give a 'set trap' ability to the True Ranger (and possibly the Stalker and/or Beast Master). It fits conceptually. The only oddity is that--this might be different in bgee--is that skill progression won't display.

[Demivrgvs]

It might be interesting to give a 'set trap' ability to the True Ranger (and possibly the Stalker and/or Beast Master). It fits conceptually. The only oddity is that--this might be different in bgee--is that skill progression won't display.

I do thought about it (Pathfinder allows Rangers to get some traps) but I actually ended up discarding the idea because we already have a ranger-like character with traps imo, and that is the Bounty Hunter (he will get both Tracking and Herbalism like a ranger). The Stalker already is too similar to a Bounty Hunter with better fighting skills and weaker backstab, I'd like to make them more different rather than more similar. Edited June 10, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[leania]

By the way, are you considering removing spell casting ability from the Rangers kits except True Ranger as you did on Paladins, Demi?

 

I think this change would also work well for Rangers. Archer is completely ranged Kensai, Stalker just needs some invisibility-like innate abilities with a backstabbing skill, and Beast Master should have his companion instead of druidic spells imo.

Edited June 11, 2013 by leania

[Demivrgvs]

By the way, are you considering removing spell casting ability from the Rangers kits except True Ranger as you did on Paladins, Demi?

 

I think this change would also work well for Rangers. Archer is completely ranged Kensai, Stalker just needs some invisibility-like innate abilities, and Beast Master should have his companion instead of druidic spells imo.

Yes, that's exactly my plan. Plans may change as we'll shape kits together (especially with beta testers - you might have noticed how fighter kits have evolved quite a bit since I started working on them), but as a general rule ranger kits will give up normal spellcasting in favor of their unique abilities. I was less sure about Beastmaster and Stalker, but the Archer surely is tremendously powerful even without them (it's a slightly more armored ranged kensai with KR's Called Shots - need I say more?).