Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Demivrgvs]

Stalker

I personally don't like the Stalker's backstabbing ability because I think this ability makes this kit redundant. Despite of their special spell casting abilities in vanilla, I've barely felt that this kit is good as much as F/T.

That's why my goal isn't to make it "as good as a F/T", but to make it feel different, unique.

 

Instead of backstabbing ability, I'd rather say some additional damage or effect is enough for Stalker when he attacks from the invisible status.

Unfortunately I cannot change sneak attack effects, much like I cannot tweak critical hits to have special effects.

 

The Stalker as currently proposed has increased movement rate, a bonus to stealth, the ability to cast some arcane spells, and backstab. He is definitely differentiated enough from a Ranger IMO. If you are worried about him overlapping with Fighter/Thief, then you could capitalize on the part of his description that reads "Stalkers serve as spies, informants, and scouts." You could translate this into a larger sight radius, if that is doable. Improved Tracking and Non-Detection are also options. Evasion is also an option, but you have that on the True Ranger right now.

I cannot give a true larger sight radius, I can extend it but the "fog of war" cannot be touched, thus such tweak works only for AI controlled characters. Other than that we pretty much agree.

 

Stalker is a very powerful kit in vanilla game. In vanilla BG1 (Tutu or BGT), I'd dare to say that apart from Asassin, Cavalier, and Berserker/Barbarian, he's your best bet for a no-reload game.

Indeed. I have no idea why tons of players in various forums seem oblivious of how much effective the Stalker is, and even more strange is that very few noticed how damn powerful (if not OP) the Archer is. Ages ago I did a run with a sub-optimal ranger-like party (charname Archer, Valygar, Minsc, Cernd, Jaheira and Imoen) and the Archer was responsible of like 50-60% of the whole party kills. o.O

 

 

Multi- Dual- Classes vs. Single Class

Stalker is not as good as f/t multiclass, but that's a game issue, no single class is as good as multi/duals apart from Bards and Sorcerers, and to a much lesser extent Paladins.

You are right, but I'm doing my best to rectify it and it might actually be possible to have single classes shine with a combination of:

- "subtle" changes (e.g. Kensai getting decent AC with bracers make Kensage's robes not as "necessary" as before; rages not allowing stealth or spellcasting removes silly things like enraged backstabs, etc.)

- "complementary" mid-high level abilites (e.g. if you dual a Berserker before level 11 you don't get Diehard, which is pretty much a mandatory feature for them to survive their rages at high levels)

- unique HLAs can make single classes keep the pace even at sky high levels

- slower xp progression (it hurts multiclasses and dual classes the most, especially at mid-low levels)

[kreso]

.....even more strange is that very few noticed how damn powerful (if not OP) the Archer is. Ages ago I did a run with a sub-optimal ranger-like party (charname Archer, Valygar, Minsc, Cernd, Jaheira and Imoen) and the Archer was responsible of like 50-60% of the whole party kills. o.O

Well, you can never argue with cumulative penalty to save vs.spells (Chromatic orb galore) and stat-drain kills

Off topic, I'm pondering about a full BGT run-through with a themed party as well.

Options would be:

a troupe of Paldins, backed up by a Priest of Helm and a thief-mage (still waiting for UH)

oriental style - Monk, Kensai, Asassin, Druid (not oriental, but would shapeshift ), Enchanter (only for Black Lotus analogy), Blade (again, Black Lotus )

Northern warriors - Berserker, Barbarian, Talos Priest, Thief, Invoker, Skald

something based on AC defence - Fighter, Kensai/Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Bard, Cleric, Mage

Resistance/HP- Barbarian, Paladin, Skald, druid, thief-cleric, mage

Woodland Pride - Stalker,Archer,Ranger,Avenger,thief-mage, Beastmaster

Only thing that's stopping me is that I'd like at least one thief kit "revised"..... , I find BG1 very difficult without one and don't like vanilla kits anymore

[kreso]

Stealth doesn't seem to give +4 to ranged THAC0,, only melee. Exellent news (at least for me they're news!), regarding Archer's possible OP-ness with 0 penalty on Called Shots.

[kreso]

I've tried out Archer kit (I modified it myself by editing his clab file to simulate KR version - bonuses 1/4 levels, Called Shots a la Fighter. I didn't bother to emulate AC vs missiles bonus but nvm) in BG1. Unfortunately, he became fallen in Baldur's Gate by killing innocents (Bereserker was along as well :D ) so I lost all his abilities, and couldn't remove the fallen thing.

Anyhow - I don't think that this kit will be that much unbalanced. Called Shots are great, but within BG1 he makes them (eventually) at a +2 bonus over a fighter, which isn't that much bigger bonus. He excells at BG1 "open plains" areas, but that is quite expected - everybody with 19 dex and a bow do. Things (by this I mean how much he kills) improved vastly after I got him a Longbow which has +10% critical strike.

Overall he was nice, but lacking behind my Berserker by a large percent (40% Beresker, 23% Archer).

One prominent feature of his is that it's notoriously easy to prevent him from attacking, oponnents would sometimes simply swarm him in close spaces and he'd die instantly if not for invisibility potions - than he has to move away and fire again; in the meanwihile Berserker already demolished 2/3 of oponnents himself.

I suspect he might be really good with his Called Shots within BG2 - especially vs Dragons.

I believe much of his "imbaness" was due to vanilla Called Shots stacking save penalties and strenght drain. Without those, he's good and all, but not gamebreaking or anything like that. Leather armor limitation completely messes him up in BG1.

 

EDIT:

At level 8, he'd be making Called Shots at +3 bonus over a fighter, but he lost his ranger abilities at 7th....

Edited July 17, 2013 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Archer

I wasn't worried about the Archer before discovering I cannot remove spellcasting from him. Overall he will pretty much be as per vanilla in terms of power level: with a slightly lower but almost identical damage/thac0 progression and KR's Called Shots (which are much more versatile imo, but as you said they are not "exploitable" as vanilla's ones).

 

The problem is that KR's Ranger will have much better spellcasting abilities (they gain it much earlier and have more spell slots for low levels). Arda is convinced that I may be too much worried, and that even with spells the class might not be so much OP, but even assuming he could be right, my issue is that spellcasting was supposed to be a strong selling point of the base class.

 

I guess the best I can try to do is to slightly tweak the various "spellbooks" (e.g. the Archer might not get certain spells) and maybe giving the True Ranger something unique.

[kreso]

Archer

I guess the best I can try to do is to slightly tweak the various "spellbooks" (e.g. the Archer might not get certain spells) and maybe giving the True Ranger something unique.

So, if you give spellcasting at level 4 to True Ranger, Archer will get it at 4th level also? Mmmm....bad. Can you at least limit how many spells he'd have per level?

 

EDIT:

Also, much of his power derivated from imp.haste/un-nerfed Grandmastery for non-ending 10 apr (and the fact that he'd stay behind your tanks). Nerfing those 2 is a big hit to Archer.

Edited July 17, 2013 by kreso

[Kalindor]

Archer having spells is indeed odd. Did you decide that there is no way to remove them elegantly?

[kreso]

For some reason, I don't mind him having a few spells - he's a Ranger, not a fighter. Let him benefit from that. I'd think twice before having him over a True Fighter (with pips in bows) in BG1. He's quite limited in early levels, and needs something to compete with full-plated fighters in BG1. I see no problem in casting few spells like Cure Light Wounds, Cure Poison, Entangle etc.

[Demivrgvs]

Archer

So, if you give spellcasting at level 4 to True Ranger, Archer will get it at 4th level also? Mmmm....bad. Can you at least limit how many spells he'd have per level?

I can, but I'm kinda limited. Giving the kit -1 spell slot penalty would make it get 1st level spells at level 6 instead of 4, but equipping any item which increases spell slots would reset it to level 4. With a slightly more complicated solution I could code it to get less slots at later levels, but the base class already gets very few slots (only 2 for 4th level spells) thus I cannot do more than -1 slot per spell level.

 

Archer having spells is indeed odd. Did you decide that there is no way to remove them elegantly?

Yeah, with that exe patching which was suggested we could handle paladin's kits, but not ranger's ones, and even if we could, disabling spellcasting for a ranger would disable ranger-cleric spellcasting too.

 

For some reason, I don't mind him having a few spells - he's a Ranger, not a fighter. Let him benefit from that. I'd think twice before having him over a True Fighter (with pips in bows) in BG1. He's quite limited in early levels, and needs something to compete with full-plated fighters in BG1. I see no problem in casting few spells like Cure Light Wounds, Cure Poison, Entangle etc.

Well, it surely helps making clear this kit is still a ranger and not a fighter. The problem is that this kit gains really too many things imo (e.g. at level 4 he would have +1 hit/dmg, 1/day Called Shot, 1st level spells).

 

If we want to limit his spellbook a little I would probably simply make him not get summons, such as vanilla's Call Woodland Being, SR v4 new low level summons (Animal Summoning).

 

Another possibility is to add a -1 penalty to spellcasting speed.

[kreso]

Archer

If we want to limit his spellbook a little I would probably simply make him not get summons, such as vanilla's Call Woodland Being, SR v4 new low level summons (Animal Summoning).

Another possibility is to add a -1 penalty to spellcasting speed.

There's your Archer.

[Kalindor]

Penalize his spellcasting speed and customize the spellbook and I think it will be fine. I might even penalize the speed by 2.

 

*Edit: I share your concern that the Archer will have too many advantages. We will see how it plays out.

 

Have you decided on level 4 for Ranger spells, then?

Edited July 17, 2013 by Kalindor

[Demivrgvs]

Penalize his spellcasting speed and customize the spellbook and I think it will be fine. I might even penalize the speed by 2.

It's settled then, we'll start from this base and see how it performs alongside the True Ranger.

 

Speaking of which, the "surprise" I was talking about for b17 was the inclusion of the True Ranger and Archer within it. Unfortunately I spent the entire morning on the Berserker and I don't know how much time I'll have this afternoon/evening, not much I fear. I'll do my best.

 

I share your concern that the Archer will have too many advantages. We will see how it plays out.

I'm tempted to make him get Called Shot at level 5 instead of 4, and get one more use every 5 levels instead of 4.

 

Have you decided on level 4 for Ranger spells, then?

Yep. Same spell progression used by KR's Paladin.

[Kalindor]

Speaking of which, the "surprise" I was talking about for b17 was the inclusion of the True Ranger and Archer within it. Unfortunately I spent the entire morning on the Berserker and I don't know how much time I'll have this afternoon/evening, not much I fear.

Dammit, kreso!!

 

*Edit: What about the Undead Hunter?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Kalindor

[kreso]

Speaking of which, the "surprise" I was talking about for b17 was the inclusion of the True Ranger and Archer within it. Unfortunately I spent the entire morning on the Berserker and I don't know how much time I'll have this afternoon/evening, not much I fear.

Dammit, kreso!!

:D Off-topic, I'm going for a full BGT run with Berserker now. Don't need no Rangers for few days .

 

*Edit: What about the Undead Hunter?

I have aTweaks PnP Undead just waiting for him....

[Demivrgvs]

Speaking of which, the "surprise" I was talking about for b17 was the inclusion of the True Ranger and Archer within it. Unfortunately I spent the entire morning on the Berserker and I don't know how much time I'll have this afternoon/evening, not much I fear.

Dammit, kreso!!

:D Off-topic, I'm going for a full BGT run with Berserker now. Don't need no Rangers for few days .

LOL Well, at least we discovered and found a workaround for that weird engine behaviour, it might be useful in the future. Not to mention now Frenzy has its own portrait icon!

 

*Edit: What about the Undead Hunter?

I have aTweaks PnP Undead just waiting for him....

He'll be there too.