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SR V3


Demivrgvs

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PfMW & MantlesI agree with DarkWon, and SR is inteded to be used along with SCS thus I'm not going to clash with it.

 

My real complain is that PfMW can be exploited to achieve complete immunity (e.g. liches and creatures naturally immune to normal weapons) and that unfortunately the AI usually don't bring a secondary non-enchanted weapon to bypass PfMW when used by the player.

I think that spell on the level of PfMW should be lesser Mantle, and protect against +2 weapons instead of uber all-magical weapons.
Add my vote to that... yes, I know it might kill few AI builds, but as they are uber flawed either way, relying on to a spell that kills the spirit of the other spells, I would make the needed change.

 

Or let's take a back rote and see what happens... Let's make the PfMW a 5th level spell, not 6th, and... as the PfMW is 5th level spell, and with the rules used in the original game: any and all Liches are immune to spells of level 5 or lower (except Breach)... the Lich is immune to his own spell, so he is without the Weapon Protection spells... and dies in melee either way... if it doesn't cast more powerful spells to protect himself with.

The other adjustment should be made to the PfMW spell, that is, it can't be casted to a creature that has already anyone or more of the immunex.itm's or the other Weapon Protection spells, this is to provide the rule of none perfect protection for all creatures as it was intended in the original game, except those that have the Absolute Immunity spell on.

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Guest Guest_DarkWon_*
The other adjustment should be made to the spell, that is, it can't be casted to a creature that has already anyone or more of the immunex.itm's or the other Weapon Protection spells, this is to provide the rule of none perfect protection for all creatures, except those that have the Absolute Immunity spell on.

 

Thats the crux of it alright. Liches, Irenicus in hell etc are already immune to normal weapons, so they memorise 5 PfMW and are immortal for 20 rounds. You basically stand there checking your watch and quaff extra healing for a a few minutes.

 

I would propose:

a) PfMW 3 rnds, Mantle/Improve Mantle 4, Absolute Immunity 5.

shorter than 3 rounds is ludicrous, 6 rounds is getting crazy?? at high level you could have a few memorised...opinions?

 

b) Even with this change I would always choose PfMW...you never know what weapons the enemy has. So I would also give it a small "side effect" like Icendoan suggests, maybe +10-20% magic vulnerability?

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PfMW

I think that spell on the level of PfMW should be lesser Mantle, and protect against +2 weapons instead of uber all-magical weapons.
I do agree with you, and SR V1 actually had PfMW work like that, but I experienced the same issue reported by DarkWon. The AI would handle the change in a horrible way, and you'd be able to crush high level mages and liches in a matter of seconds (because they would consider themselves immune when they're not).

 

Changes to PfMW could be applied only by a mod which directly handles the AI of mages. High level mages like liches should use Mantles and Absolute Immunity, but as of now they don't, simply because it would be a stupid choice considering vanilla's PfMW uses a much cheaper spell slot and provides almost the same protection or a higher one when exploited (e.g. by liches).

 

I don't want to clash with SCS, thus if you want the AI to not abuse of PfMW and use higher level versions of it talk to DavidW. :D

 

The only solution I can implement within SR without issues is to make Mantles and Absolute Immunity more powerful. The AI will continue to use and sometime abuse PfMW, but players may finally find the higher level versions appealing, and I do think a 9th level spell like Absolute Immunity have all the rights to be clearly more powerful than its 6th level version.

 

Thats the crux of it alright. Liches, Irenicus in hell etc are already immune to normal weapons, so they memorise 5 PfMW and are immortal for 20 rounds. You basically stand there checking your watch and quaff extra healing for a a few minutes.
Indeed this is what annoys me the most.

 

I would propose:

a) PfMW 3 rnds, Mantle/Improve Mantle 4, Absolute Immunity 5.

shorter than 3 rounds is ludicrous, 6 rounds is getting crazy?? at high level you could have a few memorised...opinions?

 

b) Even with this change I would always choose PfMW...you never know what weapons the enemy has. So I would also give it a small "side effect" like Icendoan suggests, maybe +10-20% magic vulnerability?

a) yeah, 6 rounds duration is something which scares me a lot, but at the same time I remind myself that this spell uses the same slot which is usually filled with things like Time Stop and HLAs (and unless you play solo with the overpowered "un-nerfed" spell progression you don't have many slots, usually 3 or 4 at the end of ToB). We could give it a try though, as we probably can't say how effective it is until we start using it in-game multiple times.

 

b) Conceptually I somewhat like Ice suggestion (not the one about luck penalty but the one about magical vulnerability), but I'm not completely convinced. :( Furthermore its implementation seems problematic because you would have a mage with Protection from Fire still vulnerable to fire or a mage with a negative value in magic resistance (elemental resistances can reach negative values if I'm not wrong, but I don't know about magic resistance).

 

Luck

Make it scalable up to +15% but keep the long duration else at low level nobody will ever bother memorizing it.
If by "longer" you mean the current 10 rounds I agree.
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It would be reasonable, to suggest that you must lose resistance on a few fronts to gain immunity to a very large one, should the Mage in question have to concentrate to keep up resistances. (I don't know that they do, but it seems reasonable).

 

PfMW, especially for Liches and other things with high MR means that they are literally invincible for a few rounds. Having an equally powerful drawback seems like a good way to balance it, by making them no longer invincible. OTOH, -5 Luck is extremely harsh. Maybe -1 or -2.

 

Icen

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I'm of the opinion that PfMW should be left as it is. It's ***ly overpowered considering that nobody uses normal weapons in game, but nonetheless I feel it's a case when keeping it as per vanilla is the lesser evil.

 

And honestly I don't really think I'll be using mantles even if they were 1 turn each. Nothing disappoints more than suddenly finding out that you're vulnerable all right to enemies' weapons.

 

I think PfMW being superior to mantles is of the same league as being hardcoded, probably even more so.

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PfMW
Thats the crux of it alright. Liches, Irenicus in hell etc are already immune to normal weapons, so they memorize 5 PfMW and are immortal for 20 rounds. You basically stand there checking your watch and quaff extra healing for a a few minutes.
Indeed this is what annoys me the most.
Far worse thing is that the 6th level spell can be protected with say 8-9th level spell, and you'll have one heavenly time of trying to knock it out with lesser spells. PfMW+Spell Trap, that's about 7 times the 5 level anti protection spells(Breach), while the Absolute Immunity has just 1. :(

And if we use the Spellstrike, we still need the 1 Breach spell.

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PfMW & Mantles

What about making Absolute Immunity completely absolute? So, making immune also to magic? Hey, that's 9th level spell!
Like IWD's Greater Shield of Lathander? :( It seems quite a radical change and potentially unbalancing imo.

 

I'm of the opinion that PfMW should be left as it is. It's ***ly overpowered considering that nobody uses normal weapons in game, but nonetheless I feel it's a case when keeping it as per vanilla is the lesser evil.
I probably agree.

 

And honestly I don't really think I'll be using mantles even if they were 1 turn each. Nothing disappoints more than suddenly finding out that you're vulnerable all right to enemies' weapons.
Well, SR's Mantle protects from +3 weapons (instead of vanilla's +2) and I don't think there are many opponents with +4 enchanted attacks in BG (e.g. greater elementals and even planetars have +3), Improved Mantle is almost a complete protection as +5 enchanted attacks are even more rare (e.g. even balors and pit fiends have "only" +4).

 

As I said (and I suppose most of us agree) the problem isn't that Mantle is a weak spell (it's very good with SR improvements), it's just that PfMW is brokenly too powerful, especially for a 6th level spell. I'll think about the various suggested solutions about adding drawbacks...

 

P.S Icen, a penalty to luck would affect attack and damage rolls making this spell quite useless for fighter-mages.

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I'm of the opinion that PfMW should be left as it is. It's ***ly overpowered considering that nobody uses normal weapons in game, but nonetheless I feel it's a case when keeping it as per vanilla is the lesser evil.

 

And honestly I don't really think I'll be using mantles even if they were 1 turn each. Nothing disappoints more than suddenly finding out that you're vulnerable all right to enemies' weapons.

 

I think PfMW being superior to mantles is of the same league as being hardcoded, probably even more so.

I'm afraid that in the end I'll agree on this. I can't really come with a better solution allthough something could easily be done... My main complaint (fear) is that it would mess with too much AI scripts.

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Only non-melee damage rolls, so a F/M which buffs with PfMW, Protection From Energy and Spell Trap, and then hits them, with, say, Kundane and Celestial Fury (disregarding IR, I can't remember the changes), he would still do a hell of a lot, since vanilla CR has a random chance of 20 damage, which isn't a roll. :(

 

Icen

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