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Druids


Aranthys

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Shapeshifting

Druid who can change into dog and use Tracking ability, or survive few rounds of heavy magical attack thanks to rat form is always usefull.

 

Panther

Huh, can't we? Damn. But still there are options like Fade Away ability: 20% for invisibility after successful attack looks really fine.

 

Avenger

That's how PnP avenger looks like:

 

The Avenger druid has seen Nature suffer great wrongs. Avengers no longer hold the defensive. Instead, they roam the world seeking wrongs to right and foes to fight. And whether their opponent is a brutal king cutting down an ancient forest to build a fleet of war galleys, or an evil vampire menacing a peaceful halfling village, the Avenger acts to stop him. Permanently.

 

This druid is a grim, strong, and silent warrior of the wilds. Avengers have little time for anything but their mission, although they are as patient as spiders when it serves their plans. Loners, they avoid love or friendship, fearing either could compromise their mission; if they associate with a party of adventurers, they treat them as allies, but not as friends. The Avenger rarely speaks more than absolutely necessary to humans and most demihumans (although he may talk to animals or sylvan races like wood elves). He doesn't bother to explain or justify his actions. The Avenger dislikes remaining in one place, and frequently moves on after finishing a particular job.

 

And his abilities:

Special Benefits:

 

The Avenger receives an additional free weapon proficiency slot to use for any proficiency his branch allows.

 

Special Hindrances:

 

The druid's grim and silent demeanor gives the character a -1 penalty to reaction adjustment from people in encounters. No Avengers can have henchmen, hirelings, mercenaries, or servants until they reach 13th level. They can have any amount of treasure, but cannot own more treasure and equipment than they can carry on their back - any excess must go to a worthy cause.

 

Shapeshifter

I've got a nice idea based on PnP Shapeshifter's hindrance.

 

Everytime he changes his form he have to make successfull save vs. polymorphy or he doesn't get ability of changing back into human - so we have to use Break Enchantment or Dispel Magic spell. Or maybe that should be a hindrance for normal druids? That's how it looks for PnP Shapeshifter

 

Special Hindrances:

 

A Shapeshifter regains hit points only when resuming human form, and then recovers only 1D4 HP. If the druid has 0 HP or fewer, he regains none with his human shape.

If a Shapeshifter uses his power more than three times per day, then he must make a saving throw vs. spell after each extra use. A failure locks him into his current form until the next day, when he can attempt a new saving throw. However, for each failed save, the druid's next one bears a -1 penalty. If he fails three saving throws in succession, he keeps his current animal form permanently, as if he had been reincarnated as that creature. Only a polymorph any object, limited wish, or wish can turn him back to human or another form.

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Dispel vs. Shapeshifting

[...]For example: do we really prefer the "equippable paws" solution? I find this solution incredibly immersion-breaking and partially unbalancing. The former simply because having a pair of paws in the backpack to equip is silly imo, the latter because instant shapeshifting which doesn't even count as an action is too much, and shapeshift at will is incredibly unbalanced unless the forms aren't much of an improvement. If instead we do want the shapeshifted form to be cool they obviously can't be used "at will". Anyway, this solution does on thing which unfortunately is really important, cannot be dispelled.
Well the best way to do this is to choose the lesser of two evils.
Yeah, but I'm not sure equippable paws is the lesser evil.

 

If i remember well, druids are supposed to shapeshift at will. The only problem is that equipping a weapon doesn't count as an action. We could always resolve this by giving an "on equip" ability, lasting one round, that prevents the character from doing anything when shapeshifting. It would not prevent a druid from switching back to human form instantly, but at least it wouldn't be as powerful.
Actually druids can shapeshift only a limited amount of times per day in PnP. In AD&D you couldn't even use the same form more than once per day.

 

About the immersion, I think it's way worse to have your druidic paws dispelled than to have to equip a weapon to mimic shapeshifting.
Well, I'm not going to say it should work this way, but I wouldn't find strange for Dispel Magic to revert the druid to natural form (which is different from vanilla's bug where paws were dispelld but the form wasn't). After all it's still a magical ability (though in PnP it's a "supernatural" one, which is slightly different).

 

I think that making shapeshifted druid immune to Dispel Magic without informing a player is the best way ;) Whoops, I've informed them. :D Hey, thanks to randomness of this spell anyone who wasn't informed about this wouldn't notice that. :D I know that in roleplaying it sucks. I think that Dispel Magic should also have an ability to return shapeshifted druid to natural form and disabling ability of shapeshifting for few rounds.
I don't understand... You suggest to make a shapeshifted creature immune to dispel (which is much more overpowered and exploitable than you may think, trust me), and then you say Dispel Magic should affect it (and even make the ability temporary unusable). Do you think dispel magic should reverted the druid to natural form or not? :rolleyes:

 

 

SCS's Improved Shapeshifting

Have you tried the rebalanced Shapeshifting component from SCSI ?

It handles this quite good.

Actually I haven't, but now I'm curious to know how SCS handle them (and the equippable paws thing).

 

 

Twin kits

Actually, what Refinements did to this kit through HLAs is more or less what I want to achieve.
I had certain trouble with that method used, and iirc it involves baldur.bcs to boot. There's a much nicer way to make a form usable at will instead of X/day. At least I see no reason for it not to work.
Twin kits? I'm not following you sorry...

 

Anyway, regarding Refinements I was just saying that conceptually I agree with it, an HLA which improves both forms is more or less what the kit needed. The Werewolf form is its only unique feature, and comes with great disadvantages (no other shapshifting abilities, no armor), it need to scale with levels to remain usable.

 

 

Scalable animal forms

Aranthys, I've presented PnP version of shapeshifting. Your looks as huh, good for powergamers but from roleplaying point of view isn't so great. Uber-animals who fights like dragons? Don't like it.
I agree with yarpen. I'm not saying your suggested Runic/Ancient animal forms are overpowered (they aren't) but they just seem out of place to me. I can't image a wolf or bear form with such high fighting skills.

 

That's what I inteded for "scalable but limited", animal forms should be fun and useful for the most part of the game (up to 15th-18th level) , but I can't image Jaheira shapeshifted into a bear to crush Yaga Shura!

 

Perhaps, druids should just concentrate on Elemental Transformations at incredibly high levels. :D

 

 

Avenger

They already have the harsher limitations :

1) Cannot wear armor better than leather

2) -2 STR/CON at creation.

Perhaps it is just me, but I don't see any harsh limitation here:

1) far from being a huse penalty when druids are already limited to studded leather

2) -2 to CON is simply a non-penalty. Druids wouldn't gain additional HP for having CON>16 anyway, thus at character creation this doesn't make any difference at all. The other -2 penalty isn't so harsh either, but at least it's noticeable.

 

For a pure class druid these aren't harsh limitations at all imo, especially if you consider how you'd have to play a true druid anyway and compare the two classes.

 

This kit is really messed up in BG2 - it doesn't fit to anything. There is a kit name - there's a kit description and there are abilities. And nothing fits each to another! I think that you should do a little revolution and make him as in PnP grim warrior-druid. I'm presenting my version ...
Yeah, they really messed up some kits such as this, but you know it's unlikely that I'm going to completely change the entire concept of an original kit.

 

 

Shapeshifter

And I really don't think you should be able to cast while shapeshifted... that would scream "IMBA".
Well, I'm talking about granting the feature only to this kit, and only to the lesser werewolf form, but I may just as well live without it. Except this class casting while in animal form doesn't make much sense imo, I just don't like it (a bear casting spells? :) ).
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Well, I'm not going to say it should work this way, but I wouldn't find strange for Dispel Magic to revert the druid to natural form (which is different from vanilla's bug where paws were dispelld but the form wasn't). After all it's still a magical ability (though in PnP it's a "supernatural" one, which is slightly different).

I guess you want to have druidic shapeshifting work like a mage shapeshift spell then, since it's pretty much the only way to obtain what you're suggesting ?

 

 

SCS's Improved Shapeshifting
Have you tried the rebalanced Shapeshifting component from SCSI ?

It handles this quite good.

Actually I haven't, but now I'm curious to know how SCS handle them (and the equippable paws thing).

It's quite nice actually, makes you feel like your forms are usefull.

 

Scalable animal forms
Aranthys, I've presented PnP version of shapeshifting. Your looks as huh, good for powergamers but from roleplaying point of view isn't so great. Uber-animals who fights like dragons? Don't like it.
I agree with yarpen. I'm not saying your suggested Runic/Ancient animal forms are overpowered (they aren't) but they just seem out of place to me. I can't image a wolf or bear form with such high fighting skills.

 

That's what I inteded for "scalable but limited", animal forms should be fun and useful for the most part of the game (up to 15th-18th level) , but I can't image Jaheira shapeshifted into a bear to crush Yaga Shura!

 

Perhaps, druids should just concentrate on Elemental Transformations at incredibly high levels. :rolleyes:

Well alright then, but that means we need to have usefull transformations at level ~13, that would last up to level ~17-18.

Maybe a regular druid could turn into greater animals at this level. Dire bear / dire wolf, and scrap the "Runic" animals thing from my list, since druids can turn into elementals ?

 

For avanger, if we were to keep the "Elemental caster" them, how about having them shapeshift into lesser elementals at level 7 / elementals at level 13 ?

 

 

Avenger
They already have the harsher limitations :

1) Cannot wear armor better than leather

2) -2 STR/CON at creation.

Perhaps it is just me, but I don't see any harsh limitation here:

1) is exactly the very same restriction of a plain druid, thus it's almost a non-penalty for the kit

2) -2 to CON is simply a non-penalty. Druids wouldn't gain additional HP for having CON>16 anyway, thus at character creation this doesn't make any difference at all. The other -2 penalty isn't so harsh either, but at least it's noticeable.

Actually, a regular druid can wear hides & studded leather armor.

An avenger can only wear leather.

On the other hand I noticed a bug : Avengers can use Ankheg platemail, while they shouldn't be allowed to.

 

This kit is really messed up in BG2 - it doesn't fit to anything. There is a kit name - there's a kit description and there are abilities. And nothing fits each to another! I think that you should do a little revolution and make him as in PnP grim warrior-druid. I'm presenting my version ...
Yeah, they really messed up some kits such as this, but you know it's unlikely that I'm going to completely change the entire concept of an original kit.
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Dispel vs. Shapeshifting
[...]For example: do we really prefer the "equippable paws" solution?
Well the best way to do this is to choose the lesser of two evils.
Yeah, but I'm not sure equippable paws is the lesser evil.

Instead of Create Magical Item, use Create Item In Slot. The weapon is undroppable but otherwise normal (undispellable), and bumps the current weapon into Inventory. After Shapeshift Natural Form removes the undroppable item, the Druid will have to re-equip her original weapon; big deal. In "real life," she would have to do this anyway.

 

About multiple Shapeshifting forms requiring many Ability buttons: My Hivemaster has just 1 "Shapeshift Spider" ability, which spawns a menu of which forms he's able to change into. Although this wouldn't work for you if you wanted to, say, make Druids able to change into a Wolf 3 times per day but a Bear only once.

 

Bear combat idea: Give them a Knockdown/Grapple/Trample ability--the next time they hit an enemy, they are locked together: Both Bear and victim have Movement Rate set to 0, and take combat penalties--a +2 AC penalty for the Bear, and THAC0/AC/spellcasting penalties for the victim based on its size (Race). Trying to Grapple a Fire Giant is probably not the best idea. (The tricky bit to this idea is making the effects wear off when one of the combatants dies.)

 

Wolf idea: Give them a "Pack Alpha" ability, forcing all Wolves in sight range to make a reasonably difficult Save or be Charmed. If there were any Wolves at all in BG2, somebody might give a whoopdy-doo about this.

 

About forms in general: Please grant them all some ApR bonuses to make them more appealing than just hanging back with Blackblood or the Sling of Everard or whatever.

 

Avenger: If it's going to be an Elemental kit, I'd like to see all the elements represented. Bring on Cloudkill, Acid Fog, and Cone of Cold, as well as Gust of Wind, Aerial Servant, and possibly things like Summon Efreeti. As for Disadvantages, how about permanent penalties to his Physical resistances?

 

Shapeshifter: Being able to shapeshift at will almost sounds appropriate for this kit . . . how about after he's had access to a particular form for at least 10 levels, he can change to that form as often as he wants? It's a thought.

 

Vampiric Wolves being too "evil" for Druids? I for one am getting tired of Druids allegedly existing only to oppose "warlords cutting down forests to build an armada of conquest" and "evil vampires threating Halfling villages." They're supposed to be Neutral, people, and Jaheira isn't helping.

 

Tack on another vote for me for Druids (except Avengers) being able to wear all organic armor, no matter how heavy it is. I also think Shapeshifters (along with everyone else, including Monks and Kensai) should be able to wear the lesser Mage Robes (Knave's, Cold Resistance, etc).

 

[ADD] "Goddamn size modifiers to Grapple checks!" -- Belkar [/ADD]

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Dispel vs. Shapeshifting

Instead of Create Magical Item, use Create Item In Slot. The weapon is undroppable but otherwise normal (undispellable), and bumps the current weapon into Inventory. After Shapeshift Natural Form removes the undroppable item, the Druid will have to re-equip her original weapon; big deal. In "real life," she would have to do this anyway.
Actually thanks to Taimon I'll be finally able to have shapeshifting work flawlessly with no dispel issue! :hm:

 

Bear's Grapple

Bear combat idea: Give them a Knockdown/Grapple/Trample ability--the next time they hit an enemy, they are locked together: Both Bear and victim have Movement Rate set to 0, and take combat penalties--a +2 AC penalty for the Bear, and THAC0/AC/spellcasting penalties for the victim based on its size (Race). Trying to Grapple a Fire Giant is probably not the best idea. (The tricky bit to this idea is making the effects wear off when one of the combatants dies.)
Grapple is something I was going to propose for ASIII's bears within SR, but I never imagined anything more than a hold/stun effect, which was sub optimal to say the least. Your suggestion about setting movement rate to 0 and lowering AC to both bear and grappled creature seems really cool to me. If I make it work via .spl I can also make sure that ettings, giants, incorporeal creatures, dragons and the like cannot be grabbed. :)

 

Avenger

: If it's going to be an Elemental kit, I'd like to see all the elements represented. Bring on Cloudkill, Acid Fog, and Cone of Cold, as well as Gust of Wind, Aerial Servant, and possibly things like Summon Efreeti.
Indeed, except Djinni and Efreeti though, these summons aren't suited to be a druid spell.

 

Druid's armor proficiency

Tack on another vote for me for Druids (except Avengers) being able to wear all organic armor, no matter how heavy it is.
That is already true within IR, and I'll obviously keep this feature within KR.

 

I also think Shapeshifters (along with everyone else, including Monks and Kensai) should be able to wear the lesser Mage Robes (Knave's, Cold Resistance, etc).
I'm not too convinced about this instead, but neither am I particularly against it. Except Kensais, I really can't see them wearing robes.
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Regarding shapeshifting, why not just keep it simple and implement a few forms along the lines of IWDI-II? Shapeshifting was actually somewhat useful in this game because each form brought a specific advantage, whether it was more attacks, elemental resistances, or higher ac for tanking.

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I've been absent from the modding mindset for a while, but I'm currently wandering my way back.

 

Dispel vs. Shapeshifting

Actually thanks to Taimon I'll be finally able to have shapeshifting work flawlessly with no dispel issue! :)

Bitchin'. I might still find reasons to implement it by equipping an undroppable item in the WEAPON2 or WEAPON3 slots, which Druids can't access, but having the items created with Create Magical Item finally be undispellable would indeed be welcome.

 

 

A few general thoughts:

 

Druidic Level / Spell Progression

I've never been fond of the whole Levels-13-through-15 dance they do, and while I appreciate BioWare staying true to PnP "Great Druids" and all that jazz, the whole situation is damned awkward, and opens the door to cheese like hanging onto your Druid just long enough to get that massive spellslot bonus at Level 15, quickly snagging a couple choice spell HLAs, then Dualing to Fighter and getting your Druid half back almost immediately. On the other hand, I am even less fond of simply giving them the exact same level & spell progression as the Cleric; uniqueness is a good thing, and should be preserved if feasible. For one thing, the Druid's rapid rise in the early game and larger number of high-level spellslots around the 3 million mark go a long way toward balancing out the fact that Clerics still have better spells, and WAY better item selections. I'll try to put together some tables that smooth out the Druid's path while still retaining some of the "Great Druid" spirit. (And if you decide you don't want them in your mod, maybe I'll incorporate them into mine.)

 

 

Avenger

Ah yes, the BEAST_FRIEND kit. I for one think it's well within the scope of KR to break the Avenger into 2 (or even more) kits: One with a kaleidoscopic array of Shapeshifting forms, and one with a strong Elemental/Evocation flavor. Demi, your comment about Djinni & Efreeti not being proper Druid summons, and the Fire Salamander not being a proper Druid form, makes me think that an "Invoker Druid" might do well with spells that involve nothing but extraplanar creatures & effects. (Spells like Maze and Black Blade of Disaster could be very interesting on a Druid.) The opposition of the Elemental Planes is a form of balance, after all, and it's hardly as if Elemental summons weren't already part of the divine reportoire. (Such a kit would, however, need enhanced versions of HLAs like Earth Elemental Transformation--perhaps when you change, you also get a couple of free appropriate summons to be your backup?)

The "limited to Leather armor" rule really should stay in place, however, if only because it's a useful restriction that could very well already be used by other modders.

 

 

Shapeshifters

Thanks to Taimon's fix, it looks like this kit might actually be fixable without a massive overhaul . . . a good plan might be to start by making the corrections that Weimer tried to implement, and then tone them down to where the (Greater) Wolfwere can no longer be the best Tank in the game by simply standing there.

Can Wolfweres cast spells? According to the games, not really: I can recall only two instances of a Lycanthrope speaking Common while in wolfman form--in ALL other cases, the creature that was quite chatty before is suddenly silent. That's a strong argument against spells, or at least their vocal components.

 

 

Shapeshifting

I should think I hardly need to say this, but any system that does not scale the forms to the user's level does not deserve my support. Either Polymorph Into Specific [target creature varying with caster level], and/or have the spell itself confer level-based bonuses after the polymorphing takes place.

I agree with not having Shapeshift forms that can single-handedly take out a Dragon . . . not because a Shapeshifted Druid shouldn't be more physically powerful than a Dragon, but because a Shapeshifted Druid shouldn't be more physically powerful than a Fighter of the same EXP. Shapeshift forms whose focus is pure combat (like the Bear) should always be a preferable alternative to the straight Druid's (unbuffed) combat stats and (rather lackluster) weapons, but at the same time generally less potent than an unbuffed Warrior using weapons roughly appropriate to his level.

 

The "can change into each type of creature only 1x/day" rule is bollocks. What, you turn into a Bat to get over a Trap in the floor, but once you're on the other side you have to Rest in a dungeon because you can't do it again to get back? You might consider having 2 or 3 abilities like "Lesser Shapeshift" and "Greater Shapeshift," each bringing up a menu of critters to choose, with the more powerful combat forms naturally appearing in the Greater column. As the Druid gains levels, some Greater forms might drift into the Lesser pile, and some Lessers might disappear as they are made obsolete.

 

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to make paperdolls for those forms that currently lack one (like Bat), but I don't think it would be too tricky. As for Panthers and Stealth, an implementation that's better than flat Invisibility or even a Fade-on-hit effect would be to give them an infinite-use ability of Spell A, which sparks a chain reaction:

Spell A: Instantly affects all non-party creatures within 30 feet of the caster, making them cast Spell B on themselves (unless they are Blind/Held/etc). After a 1-second delay, casts Spell C on the original caster.

Spell B: Instantly makes all creatures within 30 feet of the caster immune to Spell C for 1 second.

Spell C: 80% chance (possibly varying with level) of Invisibility on self.

It might not allow for line-of-sight (i.e., you can't hide from an enemy who's within 30 feet of you, but on the other side of a wall), but it's a decent approximation.

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For your consideration.

 

EXP:

LEVEL   CLERIC   DRUID (vanilla) DRUID (suggested)
1			 0			0				0
2		 1,500		2,000			2,000
3		 3,000		4,000			4,000
4		 6,000		7,500			7,500
5		13,000	   12,500		   12,500
6		27,500	   21,000		   21,000
7		55,000	   35,000		   35,000
8	   110,000	   60,000		   60,000
9	   225,000	   90,000		   90,000
10	  450,000	  125,000		  125,000
11	  675,000	  200,000		  240,000
12	  900,000	  300,000		  480,000
13	1,125,000	  750,000		  840,000
14	1,350,000	1,500,000		1,200,000
15	1,575,000	3,000,000		1,560,000
16	1,800,000	3,150,000		1,920,000
17	2,025,000	3,300,000		2,280,000
18	2,250,000	3,450,000		2,640,000
19	2,475,000	3,600,000		3,000,000
20	2,700,000	3,750,000		3,312,500
21	2,925,000	3,900,000		3,625,000
22	3,150,000	4,150,000		3,937,500
23	3,375,000	4,400,000		4,250,000
24	3,600,000	4,700,000		4,562,500
25	3,825,000	5,000,000		4,875,000
26	4,050,000	5,500,000		5,187,500
27	4,275,000	6,000,000		5,500,000
28	4,500,000	6,500,000		5,812,500
29	4,725,000	7,000,000		6,125,000
30	4,950,000	7,500,000		6,437,500
31	5,175,000	8,000,000		6,750,000
32	5,400,000	8,500,000		7,062,500
33	5,625,000	9,000,000		7,375,000
34	5,850,000	9,500,000		7,687,500
35	6,075,000   10,000,000		8,000,000
36	6,300,000   10,500,000		8,312,500
37	6,525,000   11,000,000		8,625,000
38	6,750,000   11,500,000		8,937,500
39	6,975,000   12,000,000		9,250,000
40	8,000,000   12,500,000		9,562,500

The Druid's EXP progression during BG1/TotSC is untouched. Like the other classes, they now spend roughly the first 15% of SoA gaining levels somewhat rapidly, although the rate is decreasing, and then they spend the remaining 85% progressing at a constant rate: 1 level per 360,000 EXP. They gain 8 levels during SoA, not just 4, with no noticable growth spurts or periods of drag. Once they attain "Great Druid" status, they gain levels faster: A constant rate of 312,500 EXP/level throughout all of ToB. They gain the same number of HLAs as they did before. In ToB, their EXP curve is almost directly on top of the Paladin's/Ranger's.

 

SPELLSLOTS:

LEVEL  CLERIC   DRUID (vanilla)  DRUID (suggested)
1	  1		   1			 1
2	  2		   2			 2
3	  21		  21			21
4	  32		  32			32
5	  331		 331		   331
6	  332		 332		   332
7	  3321		3321		  3321
8	  3332		3332		  3332
9	  44321	   44321		 44321
10	 44332	   44332		 44332
11	 544321	  544321		544321
12	 655322	  655322		655322
13	 666422	  666422		666422
14	 6665321	 6665321	   6665321
15	 6666421	 6666666	   6666421
16	 7776431	 7776666	   7777432
17	 7777532	 7777666	   8877542
18	 8888642	 8888666	   9988753
19	 9988642	 9988666	   9998865
20	 9998752	 9998766	   9999875
21	 9999862	 9999866	   9999876
22	 9999863	 9999866	   9999876
23	 9999973	 9999976	   9999976
24	 9999973	 9999976	   9999976
25	 9999973	 9999977	   9999986
26	 9999983	 9999977	   9999986
27	 9999983	 9999977	   9999987
28	 9999984	 9999977	   9999987
29	 9999984	 9999977	   9999987
30	 9999984	 9999977	   9999987
31	 9999985	 9999977	   9999997
32	 9999985	 9999977	   9999997
33	 9999985	 9999977	   9999997
34	 9999986	 9999977	   9999997
35	 9999986	 9999977	   9999998
36	 9999986	 9999977	   9999998
37	 9999986	 9999977	   9999998
38	 9999987	 9999977	   9999998
39	 9999987	 9999977	   9999998
40	 9999987	 9999977	   9999999

The "OMG I just got a whole bunch of high-level spellslots" moment is now spread out, to make the "best" time to Dual-Class less glaring. Most of the bonus spellslots are gained prior to Level 19, to counterbalance the weight of the HLAs that are gained afterward.

 

Those who hated the Druid's virtual lockdown in the second half of SoA should be happy.

Those who wanted to retain the idea of Druids becoming stronger at around 3 million EXP should be happy.

Those who insist that Great Druid status must be awarded at Level 15 (instead of 19) can go suck it.

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I've been absent from the modding mindset for a while, but I'm currently wandering my way back.
Idem (sort-of).

 

 

Druidic Level / Spell Progression

I've never been fond of the whole Levels-13-through-15 dance they do, and while I appreciate BioWare staying true to PnP "Great Druids" and all that jazz, the whole situation is damned awkward...
Personally I always used the tweak which makes them level as clerics, and I don't see any reason to have them level up in a different way.

 

 

Avenger

Ah yes, the BEAST_FRIEND kit. I for one think it's well within the scope of KR to break the Avenger into 2 (or even more) kits: One with a kaleidoscopic array of Shapeshifting forms, and one with a strong Elemental/Evocation flavor.

 

...

Well, the plan was to do something like that without adding any new kit. The plain Druid will get all the cool shapeshifting abilities (both animal and elemental ones), while the Avenger should focus almost only on his casting abilities (with more than a bunch of added spells). The shapeshifting forms pratically are the only thing I can use (by not granting it) to balance-off kits' custom abilities (well, there's also the 'no-armor restriction' which is used by the Shapeshifter kit).

 

This way we should have a druid class for every type of play:

- Druid is the all-around multi-purpose base class (with a good array of animal forms with cool different abilities)

- Avenger is a sort of invoker/evoker (focusing on offensive oriented elemental spells)

- Shapeshifter is more combat-oriented

- Totemic Druid is a sort of summoner

 

 

Shapeshifters

Thanks to Taimon's fix, it looks like this kit might actually be fixable without a massive overhaul . . . a good plan might be to start by making the corrections that Weimer tried to implement, and then tone them down to where the (Greater) Wolfwere can no longer be the best Tank in the game by simply standing there.
Yep, it shouldn't be too difficult to make this kit and I actually think I won't have to look at Weimer's version of it (it's so much overpowered that I take less time to build it from scratch).

 

I probably have one suggestion though, to remove the lesser/greater form and simply use one ability which gets an upgrade 2 or 3 times. For example I need a "less-than lesser" form for BG1, because even vanilla's lesser form is really OP in BG1. I though about making the ability start as a sort of partial-mutation (e.g. you simply get magical paws instead of a full polymorphed form), but even if we discard such idea I'd still need to have a version of the kit's ability balanced for BG1 (thus an upgraded form around 7th lvl, and another one around 15th).

 

Can Wolfweres cast spells? According to the games, not really: I can recall only two instances of a Lycanthrope speaking Common while in wolfman form--in ALL other cases, the creature that was quite chatty before is suddenly silent. That's a strong argument against spells, or at least their vocal components.
That's something that needs to be discussed. If the Wolfwere form is temporary (and I'd vote for that), a powerful HLA may allow casting while in this form, but if the shapeshifter can use the ability at-will I'd be against it (we'd end up with a druid permanently polymorphed).

 

 

Shapeshifting

I should think I hardly need to say this, but any system that does not scale the forms to the user's level does not deserve my support. Either Polymorph Into Specific [target creature varying with caster level], and/or have the spell itself confer level-based bonuses after the polymorphing takes place.
Yep, this is the most tricky thing to handle, but indeed I don't want the druid to stick with a bear form which rocks in BG1 and sucks in BG2.

 

The "can change into each type of creature only 1x/day" rule is bollocks.
I'm not sure about it, mainly for balance purposes. :)
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I think that we should consider about other features of druid such as armor & weapon penalty in future though we are focusing on the shapeshifting now.

 

The feature of shapeshifting is not only important part of druid but also these penalties and his spells including HLA is significant, too.

 

Buckler(I can't understand why druid can only use buckler... I think they can use any size of shield except iron or steel type), Dart, Dagger, Scimitar, Spear, Club, Staff, and Sling have a few number of kind compared with long sword, Two-handed sword, Mace, and so on. So to improve druid, more items what druid can use are included in Druid Revision Mod.

 

And more armor which druid can wear has to be added, too. Though they can wear full-plate armor, there is no non-iron full-plate armor except ankheg plate armor. More armors made with some skin need to be added.

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I think that we should consider about other features of druid such as armor & weapon penalty in future though we are focusing on the shapeshifting now.

 

The feature of shapeshifting is not only important part of druid but also these penalties and his spells including HLA is significant, too.

 

Buckler(I can't understand why druid can only use buckler... I think they can use any size of shield except iron or steel type), Dart, Dagger, Scimitar, Spear, Club, Staff, and Sling have a few number of kind compared with long sword, Two-handed sword, Mace, and so on. So to improve druid, more items what druid can use are included in Druid Revision Mod.

Within IR I already partially cover this. I've not added new clubs, staves, though I've added one early available scimitar (a flaming scimitar +1), but there are plenty of effective specimens of all "druid-usuable" weapons. The restriction is intended as a "disadvantage" thus it' obvious they should still have a much more limited arsenal than fighters.

 

For shields the only non-iron shield was the Dragonscale Shield, and thus I made it usable by druids, but for V3 I'm planning to add an Ironwood Shield.

 

And more armor which druid can wear has to be added, too. Though they can wear full-plate armor, there is no non-iron full-plate armor except ankheg plate armor. More armors made with some skin need to be added.
This too is done within IR.

 

Early on you should rely on light armors or Ankheg Plate armor, while Ashen Scale is a quite good mid-game medium armor for druids, and later on you''ll have access to dragon armors. All Dragon Armors are usable by druids, and within IR those armors are the most heavily enchanted ones for each type (there's a hide armor, a splint mail, a plate mail, and a full plate, all with +5 enchantment).

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I think that we should consider about other features of druid such as armor & weapon penalty in future though we are focusing on the shapeshifting now.

 

The feature of shapeshifting is not only important part of druid but also these penalties and his spells including HLA is significant, too.

 

Buckler(I can't understand why druid can only use buckler... I think they can use any size of shield except iron or steel type), Dart, Dagger, Scimitar, Spear, Club, Staff, and Sling have a few number of kind compared with long sword, Two-handed sword, Mace, and so on. So to improve druid, more items what druid can use are included in Druid Revision Mod.

Within IR I already partially cover this. I've not added new clubs, staves, though I've added one early available scimitar (a flaming scimitar +1), but there are plenty of effective specimens of all "druid-usuable" weapons. The restriction is intended as a "disadvantage" thus it' obvious they should still have a much more limited arsenal than fighters.

 

For shields the only non-iron shield was the Dragonscale Shield, and thus I made it usable by druids, but for V3 I'm planning to add an Ironwood Shield.

 

And more armor which druid can wear has to be added, too. Though they can wear full-plate armor, there is no non-iron full-plate armor except ankheg plate armor. More armors made with some skin need to be added.
This too is done within IR.

 

Early on you should rely on light armors or Ankheg Plate armor, while Ashen Scale is a quite good mid-game medium armor for druids, and later on you''ll have access to dragon armors. All Dragon Armors are usable by druids, and within IR those armors are the most heavily enchanted ones for each type (there's a hide armor, a splint mail, a plate mail, and a full plate, all with +5 enchantment).

 

Thanks for your reply.

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I suggest about Avenger's shapeshifting form.

 

He has 3 froms now which is Sword spider, Baby wyvern, Fire salamander.

 

Actually, I feel that the spider form is only useful. As you know, the spider and the wyvern has same feature which is poison. And the salamander has same but weaker features with Fire elemental.

 

So I popose new forms to replace these two useless form.

 

First one is Winter wolf. It has cold resistance and ranged attack(Breath). I think that some more feature should be added such as slow effect chance per successful hit.

 

And another is Moon dog or Golden Lion. They can cast some spell, so it is very unique forms compared with other forms.

 

 

If you can import some IWD2 character animation from Infinity Animation Mod, the selection range of the forms quite increases. And also, you will able to make Water Elemental Prince who didn't appear in the BG game through the import although Refinements Mod already made him (but as you know, it is not perfact).

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Re: the Avenger: why not just a full-grown wyvern? IMO that'd be pretty cool. Salamander is just weird though - it's an extraplanar being!

 

I like the Winter Wolf idea :undecided: Moon Dog and Golden Lion would be interesting but, I think, kind of out of place. Neither of them is a natural creature, which it probably should be for a druid.

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