Druids

[Daulmakan]

And the most important thing: if A64 would enable "increasing magic damage" opcode, this kit would have the greatest defining feature of dealing more damage than other druids or wizards.

That would actually be really cool for Evokers too.

FYI, Ascension has already done this, and the feature is already implemented in one of my mod's components.

[Ardanis]

I wholeheartedly support short bows for druids - bow's history is close in age to other druid-usable weapons, so no consistency break.

[Kalindor]

It would be nice from a flavor perspective to differentiate them a bit more from clerics.

[DrAzTiK]

It would be nice from a flavor perspective to differentiate them a bit more from clerics.

I think it could be interessing to give druids the ability create potions. An X per day ability justified by the knowledge of druids in herbal medecine, plants etc... This method is absolutely standard and occurs in all best RPG.why on earth a druid in BG with a plenty bag of plants could not do this ?

 

 

For exemple, a level one druid shoud le able to concoct one potion of healing every day.

 

Of course, number and diversity of potions could improve with levels. The potion creation could eventually require a cost in gold (similiary to the HLA rogue potion ability of Rogue rebalancing)but surely the cost shoud be less than in store. (considerting druids can find ingredients to elaborate potions in the nature)

 

The goal is of course to make this class a bit more attractive, unique and balanced (of course Spell Revisions help a lot but priest remain more versatile Imo)

 

Another goal is to limit a bit the need to rest in donjons. (especially with healing potions creations)

 

Maybe also rangers should be able te create some potions?

[Demivrgvs]

It would be nice from a flavor perspective to differentiate them a bit more from clerics.

Well, I think SR already did a quite good job by making their spellbooks consistently more different, hasn't it?

 

That being said, I'm obviously in favor of fifferentiating them even more if possible. Allowing them to use bows could be a small but considerable change (though then I'd be curious to know who would use slings...halflings?), allowing druids one more option to perform a more ranged-oriented role, unlike the heavily armored clerics who more often fill a melee role.

 

Btw, there's another HUGE thing that should also differentiate druids from clerics (aside from having a completely different equipment), and that is SHAPESHIFTING ABILITIES. That is something with a quite good potential imo.

 

I think it could be interessing to give druids the ability create potions.

Interesting...it could make sense as long as we are speaking of healing or curative potions (IR's Potion of Stone Form makes sense too). I'm not sure I'd like to have half the classes share a similar "create potions" ability though (mages, thieves and bards already have it).

[DrAzTiK]

Interesting...it could make sense as long as we are speaking of healing or curative potions (IR's Potion of Stone Form makes sense too). I'm not sure I'd like to have half the classes share a similar "create potions" ability though (mages, thieves and bards already have it).

I personally think that many more potions could make sense to be created by druids.. Of course there is the problem of balance but this class is obvisouly the one who should deserve this ability first.

 

If I am not wrong , others classes sharing this ability can do it only via HLA. (so only in ToB : 1/6 of the BG saga) I consider the concept as non existent

[leania]

I've though about the Druid's kits so long time and I finally acknowledged that my suggestions were too bad, I now have different designs for each kit that is much more reasonable based on AD&D Handbook rules supplement though.

 

I'd like to discuss about those, but I think this is not time for it yet.

 

I'm learning making mod using Weidu now so I may be able to make the revision mod myself.

[polytope]

NOTE: Totemic Druid now become a animal specialist. The spiritual animals are more powerful than normal animals (Better THAC0 or HP or APR or... whatever). However, Totemic Druid has disadvantages of elemental domains.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the vanilla game spirit animals have the same resistances/immunities as undead, and some undead-esque abilities (level drain or fear), but are not actually classed as undead creatures? I'd like for them to be made more consisent, either proper undead spirits or something completely different.

[Demivrgvs]

@leania, I need some time to write down a decent reply. Will do asap.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the vanilla game spirit animals have the same resistances/immunities as undead, and some undead-esque abilities (level drain or fear), but are not actually classed as undead creatures? I'd like for them to be made more consisent, either proper undead spirits or something completely different.

That's because PnP isn't clear regarding the whole "spirit" thing. There isn't a true "spirit type", and even feys and elementals are considered spirits within PnP, as well as any creature in astral form. While spirit animals should probably be considered incorporeal undead creatures, I'm not sure I'd assign it the 'undead' type, because I don't like the idea that MoD's Disruption would work on them, or that an evil priest could take control of them as if they were undead minions.

 

I'd consider them something different indeed, something like "incorporeal animal ghosts", but for obvious reasons they do share most of undead immunities/resistances.

[leania]

It may not be time to discuss Druids Revision, but I'd want to share my ideas that I've tried to make myself.

 

I'll write down the parts of kits revisions only, I was considering revising additional spell slot bonuses from Wisdom, THAC0 progression table, etc. though. My ideas assume using the SRv4's druidic spells.

 

True Druid

"The Druid serves the cause of nature and neutrality, the wilderness his community, and he uses special powers to protect it and to preserve balance in the world."

 

Class Features:

- Rolls d8 for hit points.

- May wear all types of non-metal armor.

- May not equip shields larger than medium shields

- May only use the following weapons: scimitar, dagger, club, spear, quarterstaff, dart, sling, shortbow, longbow.

- May only become Proficient (one slot) in any weapon class.

- May only become Proficient (one slot) in any fighting style.

- May cast druidic spells.

- At 3rd level, can shapeshift into a bear or lion once every 3 levels (up to 5 times at 15th level).

- At 13th level, becomes immune to poison.

- At 15th level, gains 15% resistance to cold, fire, electricity, and acid, gains a further 5% resistance at levels 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, and 29.

- Alignment restricted to neutral good, lawful neutral, true neutral, chaotic neutral, and neutral evil.

 

SHAPESHIFT: Shapeshift into a bear or lion. Turning back into human form or shapeshifting another animal form heals small amount of HP. Shapeshifting forms grow more powerful with the Druid’s level.

 

Notes:

Druids now can use Bows and the shaftshifting forms are revised. The bear form is a defensive form which provides HP regen, higher HP, physical resistance, and so on. On the other hand, the lion form is a aggressive form which have higher apr, movement speed, etc. I've considered adding "physical penetration" ability to the lion form, which is the opponent of physical resistance, but I couldn't find such effect in DLTCEP so that I gave it up.

Anyway, the shapeshifting forms share the number of shapeshifting and each shapeshifting form is improved according to the level up. I'll write down the details of each shapeshifting form later.

In summary, the shapeshifting forms are the main characteristic of True Druid; the other kits can not shapeshift into any animal form. True Druid can not only cast all of druidic spells without penalties but also can shapeshift an aggressive form or a defensive form according to the situation in combat.

 

 

Totemic Druid

"This Druid closely identifies with a particular animal that he feels represents his spirit. This grants him a special connection to the animal kingdom, and he is able to call upon the spirit to aid him."

 

Advantages:

- May summon a special spiritual animal (spiritual panther) once per day at level 1.

 

Disadvantages:

- Can not cast any animal summoning spell.

- Can not shapeshift.

 

SUMMON SPIRITUAL ANIMAL, PANTHER: Totemic Druid may summon a powerful spiritual panther as his totem. Since Totemic Druid strongly connects with the spiritual animal he can summon only one spiritual animal to maintain the spirit link. Totemic Druid receives small amount of Hit Points as bonus hit points through sharing the spiritual power. In addition, the panther also shares the effects of beneficial druidic spells with the Totemic Druid, e.g., if Totemic Druid casts Regenerate wounds to himself, the panther is also healed. However, Totemic Druid loses the bonus Hit Points and additional Hit Points which he has as damage when the spiritual animal died. Furthermore, when the link is broken Totemic Druid stuns during 1 round.

 

Notes:

I remain the summoning characteristic from the Totemic Druid. Actually, I makes the druid to be more specialized about the summoning. According to the AD&D Handbook, Totemic Druid should admires only one animal. So Totemic Druid should not be able to summon the other animals I thought. The spiritual animal, panther, is likely to the lion as I mentioned in the True Druid part. The panther is strong attacker, however, can hide into shadows and perform backstabbing. The panther is a companion of Totemic Druid; It is permanently summoned unless killed in combat (similar with Familiars).

 

I want to make sharing beneficial druidic spells, such as Barkskin, Longstrider, Regenerate wounds, Resist energy, etc., between the panther and Totemic Druid, but I'm not sure this is doable...

 

 

Shapeshifter

"Shapeshifter masters shapechanging powers at a lower experience level than other druids. This ability takes a special gift and intense training. Shapeshifter gains a great variety of forms, transforms a portion of his body, and shapeshifts more frequently than the other druids."

 

Advantages:

- May shapeshift partially, inward and outward respectively, once every 2 levels (starts at 1st level with one use, up to 10 times at 19th level).

- Receives a +2 bonus to Saving Throws vs. Petrifaction/Polymorph. At 6th, 11th, and 16th level, this bonus increases by an additional +1.

 

Disadvantages:

- May not wear armor heavier than hide.

- Cannot shapeshift into the other animal forms.

- Suffers a 1 point penalty to spell casting speed.

- May not equip any shield.

 

INNER SHAPESHIFT: Shapeshifter can reflect an animal's natural powers into his/her body. Shapeshifter receives additional bonuses according to the shapeshifting form; BULL'S STRENGTH, BEAR'S ENDURANCE, and CHEETAH’S QUICKNESS. During the shapeshifting, the Shapeshifter suffers 2 points penalties to spell casting speed. The penalties will be mitigated by level up.

 

OUTER SHAPESHIFT: Shapeshifter can transform his/her hands into a specific animal's part. The Shapeshifter can attack an opponents with special abilities according to the shapeshifting form; TIGER’S CLAW, SNAKE'S FANG, and ELECTRIC EEL’S TAIL. During the shapeshifting, the Shapeshifter suffers 2 points penalties to spell casting speed. The penalties will be mitigated by level up.

 

Notes:

Comparing to Shapeshift forms of True Druids, the partial shapeshiftings have merits like these: can cast druidic spells while receiving penalties to spell casting speed, can shapeshift more flexibly according to the situation, and can shapeshift much more time with diversity. The disadvantage is that turning back into human form or shapeshifting another animal form can not heal small amount of HP anymore. The rough characteristics of each form are as follows. You can combine an Inner Shapeshift with an Outer Shapeshift.

 

BEAR'S ENDURANCE: more CON, more HP, more physical resistance, HP regen, more bonuses to saving throws, and so on.

BULL'S STRENGTH: more damage/THAC0, more STR, physical penetration (if it can be implemented), and so on.

CHEETAH'S QUICKNESS: more APR, more movement speed, and so on.

 

TIGER'S CLAW: more APR, higher damage/THAC0, bleeding effect or stunning effect, and so on.

SNAKE'S FANG: more APR, poison effect, acid damage type, bonuses to saving throws vs. poison, and so on.

ELECTRIC EEL'S TAIL: more APR, shocking effect, electric damage type, elemental resistance against electricity, and so on.

 

 

Avenger

"The Avenger druid has seen Nature suffer great wrongs. The Avenger no longer holds the defensive. Instead, he roams the world seeking wrongs to right and foes to fight. And whether his opponent is a brutal king cutting down an ancient forest to build a fleet of war galleys, or an evil vampire menacing a peaceful halfling village, the Avenger acts to stop him. Permanently."

 

Advantages:

- Can use Nature's Wrath once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly according to level up.

- Can achieve specialization (++) in weapons that druids can use.

- May receive +4 casting level bonuses when casting direct damage spells (such as Call Lightning, Sunscorch, Fire Trap, and so on).

- Receives a 1 point bonus to spell casting speed while casting direct damage spells.

- May receive spell (magic) penetration ability at higher level.

 

Disadvantages:

- May not wear armor heavier than Splint Armor.

- Can not shapeshift.

- Can not cast Regenerate wounds.

- Suffers a 1 point penalty to spell casting speed while casting summoning spells.

- May not gain resistance to cold, fire, electricity, and acid at higher level.

 

NATURE'S WRATH: While enraged, the avenger gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage, movement speed, and spell casting speed. His spell casting never be interrupted by enemy's attack during the rage. Furthermore, the next spell casting after a spell casting will be performed immediately without waiting for end of the round. However, he suffers a -2 penalty to AC and receives +25% damage from the opponents. The duration is 5 rounds. It will be further improved according to the level up.

 

After the rage, the Avenger becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the Avenger suffers a -2 penalty to damage, attack rolls, and spell cast speed.

 

Notes:

The Avenger becomes the most aggressive druid who can use a rage-like ability. The ability is mainly designed to provide semi-Improved Alacrity effect which allows caster casting much more spells during a round, this also provides some physical strength though. In addition to the casting level bonuses of direct damage spells, the Avenger would become a Siege Tank during the rage.

[Demivrgvs]

It may not be time to discuss Druids Revision, but I'd want to share my ideas that I've tried to make myself.

Yes it's kinda soon. Hopefully I'll add Paladins this weekend, then I have Rangers, and only after them I'll start to think where to go between rogues, priests and mages. Anyway, let's see...

 

True Druid

I can tell you we have very similar plans:

- KR's Druid will be able to use bows indeed (still not sure if both or just the short one, but probably both). Other than that his equipment is already handled well by IR, which allows them to use even heavy armors as long as they are made of natural sources.

- The most noticeable change I'm working on instead is that Wild Shape will be available at 1st level. I see it this way: clerics have heavy armor and better weapon selection, druids shapeshift into animal forms instead. Don't you agree?

- I'm working on two forms, Bear and Wolf (Arda will surely manage to force me to work on a 3rd, but I'm not convinced yet). Similarly to what you have in mind the Bear performs as a tank (higher hp, physical resistance, etc.) while the Wolf will have a more offensive purpose (faster movement and attack rate, trip ability, scent, etc.). Both forms will improve as the Druid grows in level, receiving at least one huge update into the respective Dire form.

- at mid-high levels the True Druid will get Elemental Forms

 

 

Totemic Druid

I'm not sure if I would opt for a single spirit animal, as it could seriously limit the flexibility of the class. The plan was to remain quite close to vanilla's class, but heavily revise the forms to be balanced at all levels.

 

In general the idea I had in mind for this class is based on FR's Spirit Shaman.

 

 

Shapeshifter

I think I mentioned your very same idea ("partial shapeshift") somewhere, and it actually is the closest thing to AD&D Shapeshifter, but the plan was to more simply revise his Werewolf form, and enforce the concept that the kit strongly focus on a single very powerful form, maybe losing some spellcasting power in exchange.

 

Your idea has some merit, but removing vanilla's signature form is a too heavy change for a Revision mod imo. Perhaps we could merge the two things, but we would need a concept/background to justify it.

 

 

Avenger

Wow, I had never thought about something like a "spellcasting rage", but I actually like the concept, not to mention the 3E Avenger actually got a more classic rage ability (AD&D Avenger had very little flavor instead). You suggested ability is extremely overpowered (Improved Alacrity + no spell failure + speed bonus at low levels? seriously?) but with the right values it could be an interesting twist. I'll think about it.

 

The original plan was very simple: remove the various magical beast forms (salamander, wyvern, etc.), and make this kit focus on his spellcasting prowess. This way each kit focuses on a particular aspect of the base class: summoning, shapeshifting or direct damage elemental spells.

[leania]

Thank you for the reply! I'll write down my opinions...

 

True Druid

- The most noticeable change I'm working on instead is that Wild Shape will be available at 1st level. I see it this way: clerics have heavy armor and better weapon selection, druids shapeshift into animal forms instead. Don't you agree?

I agree with you, Demi. That's reasonable enough (actually, Clerics can even perform Turn Undead at 1st level).

 

- I'm working on two forms, Bear and Wolf (Arda will surely manage to force me to work on a 3rd, but I'm not convinced yet). Similarly to what you have in mind the Bear performs as a tank (higher hp, physical resistance, etc.) while the Wolf will have a more offensive purpose (faster movement and attack rate, trip ability, scent, etc.). Both forms will improve as the Druid grows in level, receiving at least one huge update into the respective Dire form.

- at mid-high levels the True Druid will get Elemental Forms

The reason I selected Lion form as a opponent of Bear is that I just thought that Wolf is a little small comparing to Bear. So that's not a big deal which form would be suitable for the offensive form.

 

By the way, I'd never thought Giving Elemental forms to earlier level than vanilla's. It might be a good feature for Druids at mid levels. Honestly, the forms were too weak to be HLA in vanilla.

 

Totemic Druid

I'm not sure if I would opt for a single spirit animal, as it could seriously limit the flexibility of the class. The plan was to remain quite close to vanilla's class, but heavily revise the forms to be balanced at all levels.

 

In general the idea I had in mind for this class is based on FR's Spirit Shaman.

I read the FR's Spirit Shaman reference and I felt that the concepts are very similar with my ideas. Totemic Druids should be able to support his spiritual animal much better than the other Druids imo. I've first thought giving some improved spells for Totemic Druid, such as improved Magic Fang, Regenerate Wounds, BarkSkin, etc. when the druid uses the spell to the animal, but it might be too complicated way so that I changed the direction to that they just share the effects.

 

The reason I restrict the number of summoning form to 1 is just for simplicity. But I think that might be sufficient because the spiritual animal is generally stronger than normal animals. The companion permanently remains and receives much more bonuses due to their natural characteristics, i.e., Undead-like immunity, as you mentioned.

 

Shapeshifter

I think I mentioned your very same idea ("partial shapeshift") somewhere, and it actually is the closest thing to AD&D Shapeshifter, but the plan was to more simply revise his Werewolf form, and enforce the concept that the kit strongly focus on a single very powerful form, maybe losing some spellcasting power in exchange.

Yes, I've also thought to remain the concept of Shapeshifter in vanilla, which has the strongest shapeshift form. But I felt that it is really hard to distinguish between shapeshift form of True Druid and the form of Shapeshifter, even when we consider the Elemental form. The werewolf form may become a superior version of Bear/Wolf form imo. Due to the reason, I rather think to give a special shapeshift ability to Shapeshifter, which can cast spell while receiving some penalties.

 

Avenger

Wow, I had never thought about something like a "spellcasting rage", but I actually like the concept, not to mention the 3E Avenger actually got a more classic rage ability (AD&D Avenger had very little flavor instead). You suggested ability is extremely overpowered (Improved Alacrity + no spell failure + speed bonus at low levels? seriously?) but with the right values it could be an interesting twist. I'll think about it.

Haha, yeah, The spellcasting rage is the main concept of Avenger in my suggestion. The ability is actually overpowered as you mentioned, but that's just rough idea. But we would need to consider that there is not enough direct damage spells in druidic spells at lower level. In addition, at lower level, druids have a few memorize slots, you know. It means that Avenger might not be able to cast spells as much as we suppose during the rage.

 

The original plan was very simple: remove the various magical beast forms (salamander, wyvern, etc.), and make this kit focus on his spellcasting prowess. This way each kit focuses on a particular aspect of the base class: summoning, shapeshifting or direct damage elemental spells.

That's would be more simpler way to implement Druids Revision, I'd want to add more features though. My concepts and directions are perfactly same with these. The only thing we should still need to discuss is how we make True Druid to be much more unique, especially comparing to Shapeshifter.

[chabba990]

The True Druid should be the most balanced of all. I mean it should demonstrate a variety of Wild Shapes, and later Elemental Shapes as well. The Shapeshifter should really focus on one powerful form, which is the Werewolf. I'd also kinda like to make the Werewolf Shape = Shapeshifting + Enrage. I think that such a powerful form must be counterbalanced somehow. However, as for the Avanger and Totemic Druid, I always felt them kinda out of place. Avanger being a caster, and Totemic Druid a summoner... It feels strange, I would like to see Avanger as a Figther+Druid, having more proficiencies and THAC0 and NoA, while Totemic Druid should have Totems. Only one Totem Spirit can be active at a time, and each should give him different bonuses. I should be like a Shapeshift without changing his actual form.

 

I think that the True Druid should have 4 forms:

 

Critter Shape: From 1st level, they can transform into a squirrel/mouse/anything. It gives them no Ability Score bonus, but it increases movement speed, AC, and save vs breath. This form is the ideal "escape" form.

 

Canine Form: Gains at 3rd level, improves every 4 level thereafter (at 7th and 11th level). This is the Constitution form, increasing it more then Strength and Dexterity. Initial form has Infravision, second form gains Scent, and final form should have a Fear Howl.

 

Feline Form: Gains at 5th level, improves every 4 level thereafter. This is the Dexterity form, but it also increases STR and CON. It should have Rogue abilities like Evasion and than Improved Evasion (although not sure how to implement it in BG). This is also the fastest form, and has better NoA.

 

Bear Form: Gains at 7th level, improves every 4 level thereafter. This is the Strength form, and the most powerful one as well. Bear causes a high amount of damage, and should probably have not only more hit point, but some physical damage resistance as well. Their special attack should be Grapple.

 

This would create a plethora of options for a pure class druid, whilst not making it OP. The point is that the final Bear Form is the strongest one, although, Elemental Forms will be stronger. (Although you would probably need the Elementals power only in ToB)

 

Sorry for any mistakes that I have probably made.

[leania]

The Shapeshifter should really focus on one powerful form, which is the Werewolf. I'd also kinda like to make the Werewolf Shape = Shapeshifting + Enrage. I think that such a powerful form must be counterbalanced somehow.

Shapeshifting+ Enrage might be good for Werewolf form... But I'm not sure it would be a differentiated feature for Shapeshifter since all of the shapeshift forms should be improved as the Druid grows in level so that the other shapeshift forms may get such ability at higher level, either.

 

It feels strange, I would like to see Avanger as a Figther+Druid, having more proficiencies and THAC0 and NoA,

Honestly, I'd first thought same things. But I changed it to current suggestion because the Fighter+Druid-like features are conceptually equivalent to the True Druid who can cast spells and fight like Fighters during the shapeshifting. Furthermore, If Avenger is Fighter+Druid it would be very similar with F/D multiclass.

 

while Totemic Druid should have Totems. Only one Totem Spirit can be active at a time, and each should give him different bonuses. I should be like a Shapeshift without changing his actual form.

The ideas seem to be similar to my ideas of Shapeshifter. I think the specilization of summoning is good enough for Totemic Druid to characterize it. Such changes what you suggested would be huge, so it might not suitable for Revision mod as Demi mentioned.

 

I think that the True Druid should have 4 forms:

Adding many forms may cause assigning similar features to multiple kits and even each form may have duplicated roles imo.

[chabba990]

Well, actually I wanted the Enrage thing as a disadvatage for the Shapeshifter. So I would simply want him to become "yellow" and attack friend and foe alike. I always imagined them as "cultists", who ritually infect themselves with lycantrophy, but as decent druids they are trying to harness its power, and control the beast within. However, they should have this chance of "berserk" that simply decreases with level, and at high level, when they fully master the "beast state" it will disappear.

 

Yes, you are right about that a combat oriented Avenger might be similar to a F/D, but it should be noted that F/D receives a significant drawback in XP and leveling, so one might simply choose the "lesser" version, in exchange for a faster development. (Not to mention that Paladins are virtually F/C-s, yet they exist with 3 different kits as well. )

 

If you stick to Totemic Druid being a summoner, then it must have some more powerful feature IMHO. I always considered them weak, and a poor choice compared to the other two kits. The Spirit Animal thing is cool to hear but technically, it wasn't such a big thing in the game either. You suggested one in the earlier post, but then again, I would say at least 3, and maybe each of them should have supernatural powers. I know it sounds strange, but it would be something that at least would make me think about choosing them.

 

As for your last reply, I know that some of my suggested 4 Wild Shapes would becom obsolate later on, but I really think that it would be cool in a role playing sense. Imagine that you change into a Wild Dog, only because it has the Tracking ability through Scent, and you "analyze" the area's inhabitants before exploring it. And nonetheless, sticking to this example, the Bear maybe a powerful melée tank form, but it cannot "see" invisible creatures. The Canine Form is the weakest of them all, but at least it can hit does nasty mages.