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Aranthys

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Winter wolves are magical beasts though :undecided:

 

Just for reference btw, I'll quote Demi from earlier in this very thread:

Avenger

This kit has really nothing to do with what it was supposed to be, as in PnP this kit cannot shapeshift at all! In theory this kit would have been a sort of barbarian-druid with an Animal Rage ability, but I don't know if such feature would still make sense combined with the mage-like abilities.

 

If you ask me, I'd prefer to completely remove shapeshifting abilities from this kit and focus on the increased affinity to elemental spells.

 

P.S just so you know, I would never allow a druid to shapeshift into a Fire Salamander, not because they can't in PnP, but because it doesn't make any sense! A Fire Salamander is not an animal, and even if I may accept magical beasts at high levels (such as Winter Wolf and Wyverns), this is not even a magical beast, it's an extraplanar crature. If we accept this form than why not an Ice Troll? Why not a Hellhound?

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*headdesk* duh...

 

A thought for regular wolves, though. One of their oft-used tactics is to render their prey helpless by severing its hamstrings/tendons, before going for the throat. Would it be possible to mimic this somehow with an innate ability? Maybe using a Slow or Hold Person/Animal spell. Might be preferable to summoning more wolves, as there aren't that many wilderness areas in BG2.

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Avenger

This kit has really nothing to do with what it was supposed to be, as in PnP this kit cannot shapeshift at all! In theory this kit would have been a sort of barbarian-druid with an Animal Rage ability, but I don't know if such feature would still make sense combined with the mage-like abilities.

 

If you ask me, I'd prefer to completely remove shapeshifting abilities from this kit and focus on the increased affinity to elemental spells.

 

I agreed.

 

Avenger should be characterized as elemental caster.

 

Here is a suggestion.

 

Avenger:

 

Adventages:

-Some elemental-based spells are added to his repertoire.

1st: Burning Hands, Agannazar's Scorcher

2nd: Fireball, Lightning Bolt

3rd: Melf's Minute Meteors, Fire Shield (Blue & Red)

4th: Cone of Cold, Conjure Lesser Fire/Earth/Air Elementals (These elementals perfactly obey the avengers, in contrast to mages)

5th: Chain Lightning, Sunfire

6th: Delayed Blast Fireball

7th: Incendiary Cloud

-At 7th level the avenger gains 30% resistance to fire, cold, electronical-based damages, and gains a further +10% to this at 11, 15, 19.

-Gains a 1point bonus to spellcasting speed

 

Disadventages:

-May not wear better than leather armor.

-On Character creation he receives a -2 to strength and constitution.

-Can't cast Call Woodland Beings and any Animal Summoning spells.

-Can't shapeshift

-Can't get poison immunity at 15 level

 

I think it's may be too powerful...

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Here is a suggestion.

 

Avenger:

 

Adventages:

-Some elemental-based spells are added to his repertoire.

1st: Burning Hands, Agannazar's Scorcher

2nd: Fireball, Lightning Bolt

3rd: Melf's Minute Meteors, Fire Shield (Blue & Red)

4th: Cone of Cold, Conjure Lesser Fire/Earth/Air Elementals (These elementals perfactly obey the avengers, in contrast to mages)

5th: Chain Lightning, Sunfire

6th: Delayed Blast Fireball

7th: Incendiary Cloud

-At 7th level the avenger gains 30% resistance to fire, cold, electronical-based damages, and gains a further +10% to this at 11, 15, 19.

-Gains a 1point bonus to spellcasting speed

 

Disadventages:

-May not wear better than leather armor.

-On Character creation he receives a -2 to strength and constitution.

-Can't cast Call Woodland Beings and any Animal Summoning spells.

-Can't shapeshift

-Can't get poison immunity at 15 level

 

I think it's may be too powerful...

Yes it is. :) It's pratically a superior Evoker with better spells at lower lvls (and he even lvl up faster, getting those slots way sooner!), faster casting time, better AC, better thac0 and more hit points! Only archmages with 8th and 9th lvl spells would catch up with this monster. :)

 

I have to say that as a general conceept I really don't like spells having different lvls depending on caster type (e.g. True Seeing should be a 6th lvl spell for both mages and priests imo), and you have instead made this (getting higher lvl spells at lower lvls) a distinctive feature of this suggested kit. For some (if not most) of your spell picks this is really too unbalancing imo (e.g. Fireball at 2nd lvl and especially Chain Lightning at 5th lvl are overkill).

 

If we decide to entirly focus on making it a sort of "elementalist" replacing druid's immunity to poison with increased elemental resistance could be a good idea as it would fit the concept.

 

At first I thought faster casting time was another "too good" feature, but it may be fine on this kit because it doesn't have access to many items with such bonus (unlike mages and bards) and more importantly it doesn't have Improved Alacrity to exploit it.

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Yes it is. :) It's pratically a superior Evoker with better spells at lower lvls (and he even lvl up faster, getting those slots way sooner!), faster casting time, better AC, better thac0 and more hit points! Only archmages with 8th and 9th lvl spells would catch up with this monster. :)

 

I have to say that as a general conceept I really don't like spells having different lvls depending on caster type (e.g. True Seeing should be a 6th lvl spell for both mages and priests imo), and you have instead made this (getting higher lvl spells at lower lvls) a distinctive feature of this suggested kit. For some (if not most) of your spell picks this is really too unbalancing imo (e.g. Fireball at 2nd lvl and especially Chain Lightning at 5th lvl are overkill).

 

If we decide to entirly focus on making it a sort of "elementalist" replacing druid's immunity to poison with increased elemental resistance could be a good idea as it would fit the concept.

 

At first I thought faster casting time was another "too good" feature, but it may be fine on this kit because it doesn't have access to many items with such bonus (unlike mages and bards) and more importantly it doesn't have Improved Alacrity to exploit it.

 

Ya, I know it's quite overpowered. Just what I wanted to describe is "features" of Avenger. I just picked up some elementary spells for him at arcane spells.

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I'd love to try do something too. But can we change then Avenger into Elementalist? :3

 

ELEMENTALIST

 

Spheres:

- Cannot cast spells from Animal sphere.

 

Advantages:

- Starts with 10% resistance to fire, cold, electric and acidic damage. Gains another +10% at 7th and +10% at 15th level.

- Some elemental-based spells are added to his repertoire:

1st level: Burning Hands, <Freezing Hands>

2nd level: Angazzar's Scorcher, <Melf's Acid Arrow>

3rd level: Lightning Bolt, Fireball

4th level: Fire Shield (Blue&Red)

5th level: Cone of Cold, Sunfire

6th level: Chain Lightning, Stone to Flesh

7th level: Delayed Blast Fireball, Protection from Elements

- Can select as HLA: Meteor Swarm

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot use any type of armour except of lesser robes. (well, I plan to make them usable to priests in F&A ... if it's going to happen).

- Uses wizard's ThaC0 progression table.

- Can't shapeshift.

 

And the most important thing: if A64 would enable "increasing magic damage" opcode, this kit would have the greatest defining feature of dealing more damage than other druids or wizards. :)

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A few comments...

I'd love to try do something too. But can we change then Avenger into Elementalist? :3

...

Spheres:

- Cannot cast spells from Animal sphere.

...

7th level: Delayed Blast Fireball

The name is fine, but we shouldn't be using sphere systems, we can say that the Elementalist has no "spellname" spells, but stay a way from spheres. For example in this, the "Call Woodland Beings" is not from the "Animal" sphere, strictly if we speak, but the Elementalist shouldn't have that...

And the Delayed Blast Fireball is really bad compared to the same levels Fire Storm. So how about "Acid Storm" ? Which is basically the same as Fire..., but with Acid damage.

 

- Cannot use any type of armour except of lesser robes. (well, I plan to make them usable to priests in F&A ... if it's going to happen).
I would say that the lesser leather and buckler would be fine for this... so keep the original restrictions.
- Uses wizard's ThaC0 progression table.
You do understand that that doesn't actually mean a darn thing... as you aren't actually saying how the change is going to manifest, so if I use a rule system that starts from 30 and ends in 0 at level 50 on Warriors, with a modified overall progression, the description fails.
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I'd love to try do something too. But can we change then Avenger into Elementalist?
Do we really need to? :) Vanilla's name itself isn't a big problem imo, it's relatively generic enough to allow pretty much any kit. In fact vanilla's kit had really nothing to do with PnP Avenger, and a bunch of unique shapshifting forms surely didn't sounded more "vengeful" than a bunch of elemental spells. No?

 

Spheres:

- Cannot cast spells from Animal sphere.

I'm with Jarno on this, I'd stay out of the sphere system unless we want to implement it for every class/kit, and personally I don't. Otoh, removing few spells as a drawback can be an interesting drawback, if it's doable without too much hassle. We can just say: "cannot cast spell x and spell y".

 

Advantages:

- Starts with 10% resistance to fire, cold, electric and acidic damage. Gains another +10% at 7th and +10% at 15th level.

This is clearly an easy way to buff this kit in case we opt on an Elementalist-like concept. That being said, I actually thought about fire, cold and electrical resistances (as per vanilla's druids), leaving acid out. The latter doesn't sound like an "element" to me.

 

- Some elemental-based spells are added to his repertoire:

1st level: Burning Hands, <Freezing Hands>

2nd level: Angazzar's Scorcher, <Melf's Acid Arrow>

3rd level: Lightning Bolt, Fireball

4th level: Fire Shield (Blue&Red)

5th level: Cone of Cold, Sunfire

6th level: Chain Lightning, Stone to Flesh

7th level: Delayed Blast Fireball, Protection from Elements

I pretty much agree.

 

1st level: Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp. There's no need to use a new spell here, especially considering there's no 1st lvl electric based druid spell.

 

2nd level: Angazzar's Scorcher, and *. Now here's I have a problem, and I guess you had it too as you put your choice under <>. If we count in SR V4 spells than either Snilloc's Snowball Swarm or Geedle Electric's Loop could work well, else I don't know. If we don't consider the Avenger a pure Elementalist but rather a mage/druid, than Web could be a powerful and appropriate choice too.

 

3rd level: Fireball, Lightning Bolt. The latter isn't a great addition imo considering I'd prefer Call Lightning over it most of the times, but the casting time difference is big (CL has 9, LB has 3). In theory I'd like to add IWD's Icelance within SR V4, and that would be a better spell (I like to have as many type of dmg type as possible, and cold based spells are really missing within BG).

 

4th level: Fire Shield (Blue&Red). There's little choice here, unless as mentioned above we don't restrict ourselves to elemental spells and go for a classic Web+Spider Spawn combo.

 

5th level: Cone of Cold, Sunfire. Obvious choices (I think Cone of Cold is really undestimated because of its unfriendliness, or skipped because of the frozen death issue but it has an absurd dmg potential!).

 

6th level: Chain Lightning, Stone to Flesh or Flesh to Stone.

 

7th level: Delayed Blast Fireball, Protection from Elements. Again, very little choices imo. Is DBF unappealing compared to Fire Storm as Jarno says? :)

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot use any type of armour except of lesser robes. (well, I plan to make them usable to priests in F&A ... if it's going to happen).

- Uses wizard's ThaC0 progression table.

- Can't shapeshift.

The latter is indeed my first choice. Assuming I manage to finally make the whole shapeshifting thing a really cool ability rather than an almost pointless one this alone could already be a serious drawback. In case non kitted druids will get their Animal Companion (as we discussed for the Beast Master), then removing such feature from this kit could be a good choice too. The latter would be a kinda big disadvantage imo.

 

On a side note, these drawbacks actually seem appropriate for every druid kit. Totemic Druid should get Spirit Animals instead of the standard Animal Companion, and the Shapeshifter clearly focus on only one form as per vanilla.

 

I'm less sure about armor restrictions (and I don't want to rely on mod-added items to fill the gap we'd force upon this class), and thac0 progression (this could make sense though).

 

And the most important thing: if A64 would enable "increasing magic damage" opcode, this kit would have the greatest defining feature of dealing more damage than other druids or wizards. :D
That would actually be really cool for Evokers too.
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This is clearly an easy way to buff this kit in case we opt on an Elementalist-like concept. That being said, I actually thought about fire, cold and electrical resistances (as per vanilla's druids), leaving acid out. The latter doesn't sound like an "element" to me.

Well, you're probably right. I was always thinking about Acid as sub-water element. But that's just silly me.

 

I'm with Jarno on this, I'd stay out of the sphere system unless we want to implement it for every class/kit, and personally I don't. Otoh, removing few spells as a drawback can be an interesting drawback, if it's doable without too much hassle. We can just say: "cannot cast spell x and spell y".

I just wanted to say by it: no Animal Summon, Charm Animal and stuff. :)

 

If we don't consider the Avenger a pure Elementalist but rather a mage/druid, than Web could be a powerful and appropriate choice too.

Many people are probably going to like it - I don't. I'd prefer to see him as Druid Invoker, who burns and freeze - summoning Web is similiar to summoning animals for aid, and disadvantage of being incapable of doing so was mentioned earlier.

 

Delayed Blast Fireball

For me the main problem of this spell is... it's too much arcane for Druid. Druids unleash the fury of elements, not manipulate them to do some subtle effects (like BAM! suddenly detonated Fireball in face of your enemy).

 

In theory I'd like to add IWD's Icelance within SR V4, and that would be a better spell (I like to have as many type of dmg type as possible, and cold based spells are really missing within BG).

Agree!

 

Vanilla's name itself isn't a big problem imo, it's relatively generic enough to allow pretty much any kit.

It tingles my PnP sense - but that's just me.

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Good idea for the Avenger, though I think there is merit to the combat oriented PnP idea (might end up too much like Skald and Swash I guess).

 

Definitely second Yarpen's suggestion to stay away from arcane style spells as much as possible. Might be a good time to bring in some more IWD spells in SR.

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Just bouncing ideas around, but it would be more interesting to me if the Shapeshifter kit received combat bonuses or casting abilities while shapeshifted and also maybe some additional forms like the Avenger currently has in lieu of the werewolf stuff.

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Avenger

Good idea for the Avenger, though I think there is merit to the combat oriented PnP idea (might end up too much like Skald and Swash I guess).
There is merit indeed, though it would be more like a Barbarian-Druid rather than a Skald or Swashie. The problem with it is that PnP Avenger is completely antithetical to BG's one, thus implementing it sounds more like replacing a kit with another one instead of revising the pre-existing one.

 

Definitely second Yarpen's suggestion to stay away from arcane style spells as much as possible. Might be a good time to bring in some more IWD spells in SR.
Fine with me.

 

Shapeshifter

Just bouncing ideas around, but it would be more interesting to me if the Shapeshifter kit received combat bonuses or casting abilities while shapeshifted and also maybe some additional forms like the Avenger currently has in lieu of the werewolf stuff.
I'll separate this in two parts.

 

- Casting while shapeshifted has been discussed (3E has a feat which allow every druid to cast while in animal form) and may be a mid-high lvl ability or HLA, but it makes senseo only if we limit the amount of time the druid can remain shapeshifted (e.g. only x turns), else we would end up with a character running around in werewolf form 100% of his life. That being said, such change would require some heavy playtesting, because it hugely increase the power of this kit. A magic resistant, regenerating werewolf is a tough threat, but the same werewolf constantly renewing Stoneskin and casting spells is a new level of nightmare.

 

- AD&D Shapeshifter is more like you suggests instead of BG's lycan. It had more or less three definging features: can shapesfit at 1st lvl (instead of 7th like all other druids), can shapeshift twice as often, can transform a part of the body instead of being limited to the full transformation. The latter is not fully implementable, but I previosuly suggested something like this to balance the werewolf form for BG1 (at 1st lvl you get paws/claws instead of a full transformation). As stated above for the Avenger, I don't know if I want to alter BG's concept much and add shapeshifting forms to this kit, especially because if we have good ideas for animal forms I'd say the plain druid needs such forms much more than this kit, no?

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I suggested at Item Revisions forum, but probably is more fitting here, to give Druids access to short bow.

Number of reasons:

1. Bows fit their nature-y nature

2. Short bows are more primitive than long bows, so in keeping with druid's other weapon choices.

3. Gives a class other than thieves real reason to use short bows.

4. If Beastmaster's weapon restrictions are loosened to use the Druid's selection, it'll still give them access to some bows. (I know you can do this anyway, but at the least it'll give more consistency.)

5. Since Druids can no longer wear helmets, they should expand their ranged repertoire. (Okay now I'm rambling...)

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