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Fighter's HLAs


Demivrgvs

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Adaptation

Which adaptation isn't possible to apply?
Neither yours (well, it can be done, but not in a good way) nor PnP one (because it has no useful mean in this game).

 

About thieves version I've seen it already in one mod called Kit Improvements. I'm not sure about it working fine, but for me change is just fine.
Eh? I've looked into that mod and I can't see anything like that. :cringe:

 

For Armor Adaptation, well... we discussed it a bit, and I wanted to also hear Ardanis's opinion about that. I mean externalisation of penalties to .spl file which is probably repetated once per round and such an HLA would grant to Warrior immunity to all of those .spl files. I know that on weaker PCs it would probably make game unplayable. Dang.
As I said, it could be done, but I really cannot consider an invented HLA a good reason to re-do all the work on armors, make all the effects work via repeating EFF opcode plus .spl, and slow down weaker PCs.

 

Not to mention I don't like such HLA concept, because it wipes out all the work done to make the armor system interesting and balanced. When we discussed it I was only considering a similar feature to allow bards casting spells in light armors (and that is still doable in a much easier way).

 

 

All-round attack

If you want to leave Whirlwind attack, I'm reminding about my humble suggestion (about granting penalties from Whirlwind AFTER round with all of those attacks). Still, for All-round attack I've thought that Whirlwind's animation would just do the thing.
Well, at least one of the two Whilrwind Attack HLAs surely has to remain. I'll look into Refinements' animation. Still, the implementation cannot be perfect, as the only way we could make it is an AoE spell-like effect dealing damage in a 5' radius, and that will not take into account the actual dmg type of the warrior's weapon, nor his STR and similar things, but it would deal a fixed amount of dmg of a specific type (probably slashing or crushing).

 

 

Bravery

For me looks certainly to weak. I'd still prefer Iron Will HLA which grants immunity to mind-affecting spells AND fear. And why not making it Permanent?
I fear we have a radically different idea of what is balanced for a passive HLA. You can take pre-existing ones from Refinements to have an idea of what I consider balanced. Picking a single HLA to gain permanent immunity to an effect widely used as fear is really fine imo, just like having a passive HLA grants a bunch of hit points (Refinements Toughness granted 6 hp, I may be fine with even 10), or a 5% resistance to either magic resistance (Wizard Slayer) or physical resistance (Barbarian).

 

A full Mind Shield effect really cannot be granted by a single passive HLA imo. Not to mention such a thing would make half of Berseker/Barbarian Enrage effectiveness completely redundant.

 

 

Deathblow

Well, making it an single attack only would make sense. Avenger this such a thing for his Assassin's Death Attack, used some damn Secondary Types and Shells about which I've got no idea. And I know you're using those too (with Ardanis's support). :)
I thought about it too, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

 

P.S I'm not even sure we can add as many secondary effects as we wish, I seem to remember there was a limit.

 

 

Inner Focus

Well, it's a part of PnP HLAs system that's why I've brought this one but personally I dislike it too. Too weak for HLA effect.
Well, my concern was more about the concept rather than the power, as the latter is easily adjustable if necessary...and I'm not even so sure a non dispellable (this is an innate, not a spell) +6 to STR, DEX and CON with no fatigue effect is so weak. Unless you were talking about its PnP version, which is indeed too weak imo, because getting an uber high stat while lowering the other two is kinda useless.
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Well, at least one of the two Whilrwind Attack HLAs surely has to remain. I'll look into Refinements' animation. Still, the implementation cannot be perfect, as the only way we could make it is an AoE spell-like effect dealing damage in a 5' radius, and that will not take into account the actual dmg type of the warrior's weapon, nor his STR and similar things, but it would deal a fixed amount of dmg of a specific type (probably slashing or crushing).

I've thought about using Current HP modifier (in PnP it ignores STR bonus, throwing away weapon type is wrong I know), but you're probably right.

 

Not to mention I don't like such HLA concept, because it wipes out all the work done to make the armor system interesting and balanced. When we discussed it I was only considering a similar feature to allow bards casting spells in light armors (and that is still doable in a much easier way)

Well, I'm not sure that allowing for such a thing for High-Level Warriors is not balanced. Hey, they do this for their whole life! :) Maybe lacking of DEX penalties is bad, because it ruins your intention to balance heavy armors... but still such a thing as Movement Speed penalty is a pain in the ass, and Korgan deserves possibility of bypassing it at high levels (in my little world where Fighters are so awesome xD).

 

A full Mind Shield effect really cannot be granted by a single passive HLA imo. Not to mention such a thing would make half of Berseker/Barbarian Enrage effectiveness completely redundant.

Similiar to small shield found in Trademeet and 5th level cleric's spell. :) Charming high-level warrior is just... strange idea for me. And fear immunity can be granted by 1st level priest's spell and 2nd level wizard's so...

 

A full Mind Shield effect really cannot be granted by a single passive HLA imo. Not to mention such a thing would make half of Berseker/Barbarian Enrage effectiveness completely redundant.

In PnP it grants bonus to only one of those abilities, still it's ToB.

 

But okay, I see most of those ideas are either impossible/difficult to implement or just weak so, hey, no problem. :cringe:

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Armor Adaptation

Not to mention I don't like such HLA concept, because it wipes out all the work done to make the armor system interesting and balanced. When we discussed it I was only considering a similar feature to allow bards casting spells in light armors (and that is still doable in a much easier way)

Well, I'm not sure that allowing for such a thing for High-Level Warriors is not balanced. Hey, they do this for their whole life! :) Maybe lacking of DEX penalties is bad, because it ruins your intention to balance heavy armors... but still such a thing as Movement Speed penalty is a pain in the ass, and Korgan deserves possibility of bypassing it at high levels (in my little world where Fighters are so awesome xD).

Well, movement rate is easily countered by equipping a pair of Boots of Speed, an if you can't stand it there's an option to install DEX penalty only. The point is, removing DEX penalties from IR's armors will completely break the system, even if done via HLA. Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be unbalanced (it's comparable to a +2 or +3 to AC), but it would ruin the whole idea that you can build an agile character in medium armor, and it would be useful only for those in heavy armor.

 

 

Iron Will

A full Mind Shield effect really cannot be granted by a single passive HLA imo. Not to mention such a thing would make half of Berseker/Barbarian Enrage effectiveness completely redundant.
Similiar to small shield found in Trademeet and 5th level cleric's spell. :) Charming high-level warrior is just... strange idea for me.
Man you really like to remember this damn little shield! :cringe: As I already told you, that shield doesn't even come close to a full Mind Shield effect, but the point is another: granting a permanent, non dispellable immunity to tons of effects (fear, charm, confusion, hold, stun, feeblemind, psionics, etc.) with a single HLA pick is seriously unbalancing. Does your love for the idea of an epic warrior being able to wipe out tons of archmages with ease prevents you from noticing how much OP this HLA would be?

 

Not only it would deprecate enrage (almost), the shield (and tons of other items), and Chaotic Command, it would also ruin many kits defining features at once, like Cavalier's immunity to fear, or Inquisitor's immunity to charm (unless you think that granting such HLA to fighters but not paladins makes sense).

 

And fear immunity can be granted by 1st level priest's spell and 2nd level wizard's so...
So what? Do fighters have such spell? Is such spell not dispellable nor breachable?

 

Splitting it into multiple HLAs (e.g. Bravery for fear and Iron Will for charms) would also mean more customization for players, and if they usally have a piece of equipment that already grants one of those immunities they may skip the HLA in favor of another one.

 

A full Mind Shield effect really cannot be granted by a single passive HLA imo. Not to mention such a thing would make half of Berseker/Barbarian Enrage effectiveness completely redundant.
In PnP it grants bonus to only one of those abilities, still it's ToB.
Eh?

 

 

Various

But okay, I see most of those ideas are either impossible/difficult to implement or just weak so, hey, no problem. :)
Actually judging from my first reply I'd say it's the opposite, we may implement (All-around attack, Bravery, etc.) and we already have (Deathblow, Frighten, etc.) most of them.
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Well, I didn't meant to grant full mind shield effect. But still Protection from Charm/Domination, Hold and Confusion/Chaos would be quite fine, wouldn't? In the worst scenario we can always limit it to +3 bonus to saving throw vs. spells because in SR only mind-affecting spells are using this one. Well, there could be even a serie of customisation HLAs

 

Great Fortitude: +3 bonus to saves vs. death, bonus to HP

Iron Will: +3 bonus to saves. vs. spells, immunity to charm

Combat Reflex: +3 bonus to saves vs. breath, bonus to movement speed

 

What about Cavailers and Berserkers... If Iron Will grants full immunity to Charm, Domination, Confusion/Chaos and Hold, they can have +3 bonus to saves. vs spells which is far more balanced. Don't you think? Same situation for Undead Hunters who will get bonus to saves vs. death.

 

And remember that in PnP Berserkers also get bonus to saves instead of full immunity, but that'd make players crazy. Still I think that's why additional Berserker/Barbarian HLAs which grants Freedom of Movement or Death Ward are so needed, Demi. ;)

 

Still I have to say that you're right about Bravery being not so bad thing. Now I remember Sarevok who was really powerfull fighter fleeing in panic every battle, where Korgan without such a damage output could stand every fight, so yeah, morale is the thing.

 

But I still believe that the best HLAs system is 'branches', creating different tiers of HLAs from which your character can select only one or two. For example, there could be Melee, Ranged and Defense branches for Fighter. It covers most type of the fighters: there is a place for Duelist, Shieldbearer, Archers. ;)

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Adaptation

For reasons Demi has outlined, I'd leave it be too. We could instead implement 3rd Ed Armor Skin HLA, +2 AC. Or three cumulative picks for +1 AC each.

 

Deathblow

I thought about it too, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
Can't tell whether I like the idea or not, because of unkillable plot characters.

 

Where it IS worth the effort, that is surely paladin's Smite ability. For once that load of Detect Evil innates will come into use.

 

P.S I'm not even sure we can add as many secondary effects as we wish, I seem to remember there was a limit.
One hundred, iirc. At least I remember compatibility issue between SCS and Galactygon's Spellpack, which used up 100 slots.

Still, there should be enough room to cover most dire needs and then to play with several fancy effects.

 

 

Great Fortitude: +3 bonus to saves vs. death, bonus to HP

Iron Will: +3 bonus to saves. vs. spells, immunity to charm

Combat Reflex: +3 bonus to saves vs. breath, bonus to movement speed

Great ;)

 

I'll look into Refinements' animation.
That's the same animation I've recommended for Wind Wall ability of Staff of Air ;)
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Great

Personally, I'd prefer to see kit's abilities balanced (so instead of those 'powerfull immunities' at 1st level, you'd gain respectable bonus to stats) and HLAs which grant full protection.

 

Cavalier: +4 bonus to morale

Undead Hunter: +2 bonus to saves vs. death/paralysation/poison

Inquisitor: +2 bonus to saves vs. spells

 

Berserker under Enrage effect, Barbarian with his Frenzy... I'd leave them with their immunities. Those are temporarly. And immunities to effects of fear and some of the mind-affecting spells isn't probably so much OP (especially after I've explained: i was thinking about only few most popular spells: charm, domination, confusion/chaos, hold), and are appropriate for HLA (maybe not selectable from start, but well with requirement of Bravery as example).

 

But currently I'm thinking that Iron Will would be better as 1/day ability, maybe with a bit stronger protections and requirement of Bravery. What about Bravery granting also Heroic Inspiration ability (+1 bonus to ThaC0, Damage and Saving Throws when HP is below 50%)? That'd be cute.

 

For once that load of Detect Evil innates will come into use.

I hope that Demi will make it useable at-will, once per round as it's stated in PnP.

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Armor Skin

For reasons Demi has outlined, I'd leave it be too. We could instead implement 3rd Ed Armor Skin HLA, +2 AC. Or three cumulative picks for +1 AC each.
Mmm...I planned a multiple passive +1 AC for Swashbucklers. Wouldn't Armor Skin be too similar to Barbarian's Resistant Skin (+5% physical res)? That being said, fighters are supposed to master every type of combat, thus it could make sense for them too, as long as the concept isn't that silly magical-looking Armor Skin, but something related to fighting skills. I don't want fighters to look like semi-magical beings.

 

 

Great Fortitude, Iron Will & Combat Reflex

Great Fortitude: +3 bonus to saves vs. death, bonus to HP

Iron Will: +3 bonus to saves. vs. spells, immunity to charm

Combat Reflex: +3 bonus to saves vs. breath, bonus to movement speed

I thought about this myself (no surprise considering they are kinda popular 3rd edition feats), but I have to think a little about it. One thing I'm sure of is that if I implement them I'd make them grant save bonus and nothing else (just like those feats).

 

Note that even a plain +3 to saves is hugely effecive because high lvl fighters have very low saves: base 3 vs death, 4 vs breath. That means that without SR's save penalties they are pretty much immune to everything using those saves if they take these feats. That actually makes these feats more powerful than multiple feats allowing different immunities imo.

 

...immunities to effects of fear and some of the mind-affecting spells isn't probably so much OP (especially after I've explained: i was thinking about only few most popular spells: charm, domination, confusion/chaos, hold), and are appropriate for HLA (maybe not selectable from start, but well with requirement of Bravery as example).
As I said, I think I like the idea of having multiple HLAs granting those passive features, I just don't want those powerful abilities to be easily available to all fighters. It also greatly help to make different epic fighters. For example if they have to take 2-3 HLAs to have a Mind Shield-like feature it means they have not taken 3x Toughness and thus have 30 hit points less, or they may had to skip powerful abilities like Whirlwind Attack, etc.

 

 

Paladin's Kits

Personally, I'd prefer to see kit's abilities balanced (so instead of those 'powerfull immunities' at 1st level, you'd gain respectable bonus to stats) and HLAs which grant full protection.

 

Cavalier: +4 bonus to morale

Undead Hunter: +2 bonus to saves vs. death/paralysation/poison

Inquisitor: +2 bonus to saves vs. spells

You have a point, but I don't fully agree. It's reasonable that even a 1st lvl Cavalier is immune to fear for example, bravery is his defining feature. That being said, I'm not going for your suggestion mainly for technical reasons (and +4 bonus morale actually doesn't work against fear at all, only against morale failure by damage). For Undead Hunter I thought something like that, starting with smaller bonuses (saves vs death may seem anti-undead, but it's not, thus I had in mind a permanent protection from undead opcode) and then granting the powerful lvl drain immunity later on (is a 1st lvl UH supposed to fight a vampire? probably not). Granting Inquisitors +2 to saves vs spell (on top of paladin's +2 to all saves) make them more powerful than you think, because they reach so low saves they are pretty much immune to anything allowing such spell (e.g. even Celestial Fury stun, making it also less appropriate than vanilla's immunities).

 

As you may have noticed for the already discussed kits, I haven't planned a complete revolution of kits, more often than not I'll "simply" revise/refine them here and there.

 

For once that load of Detect Evil innates will come into use.
I hope that Demi will make it useable at-will, once per round as it's stated in PnP.
I indeed planned to make Detect Evil work at will, mainly because it makes sense: paladins just sense evil presence, they aren't casting a spell imo.
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Demi, I've got some ideas about Combat Manevrues for Fighters (tied with weapons and IR as overall) and I've had some problems with sending those as PM, say if you got those.
I haven't. I often have the inbox full but this is not the case. Just post them in the fighter's main topic if you have troubles. ;)
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All-round attack

Quote

 

If you want to leave Whirlwind attack, I'm reminding about my humble suggestion (about granting penalties from Whirlwind AFTER round with all of those attacks). Still, for All-round attack I've thought that Whirlwind's animation would just do the thing.

Well, at least one of the two Whilrwind Attack HLAs surely has to remain. I'll look into Refinements' animation. Still, the implementation cannot be perfect, as the only way we could make it is an AoE spell-like effect dealing damage in a 5' radius, and that will not take into account the actual dmg type of the warrior's weapon, nor his STR and similar things, but it would deal a fixed amount of dmg of a specific type (probably slashing or crushing).

Surprisingly, it can be made to use weapon's real stats, including even on-hit abilities of that particular item, and even proper interaction with PFMW.

 

The WW attack ability force casts on the user (146) two SPLs, the first blocking (206) the second, while the second does that fancy round strike. If the weapon is equipped, it blocks the first SPL, allowing the second to pass through.

 

However, I'm worried that loading so many effects into one file may cause slowdowns in expert BWP games, with it's tons of new weapons. Perhaps, if only two-handed weapons were allowed to perform this maneuver, maybe not even spears, things would be more manageable.

 

As for user's STR and proficiency bonus, I bet they may be neglected, on the ground that such a move relies on agility more than on strength. Or is just already cool enough.

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Ardanis finished his coding part for fighter classes so I'm now forced to hurry up closing my part of the work as I'm now the only one responsible for further delaying a first release of KR. While doing so I stumbed as always upon new ideas and doubts. I may end up ingnoring them for now in favor of a quicker release (possibly this weekend), but I'll post them anyway.

 

HLAs are not going to be included on this first mini-release but some of them actually have on impact on how the base classes should be shaped.

 

Long story short, I have the following doubt regarding Berserker and Barbarian rages: should we proceede as planned granting a new version of their rages via HLAs (aka Deathless Frenzy and Unstoppable Fury), or should we make such upgrades part of the standard rages? I cannot implement new features to pre-existing rages via HLAs without some hackery (e.g. I should have the HLA remove all pre-existing rages spl and replace them with the new ones, but depending on when the HLA is picked I would also have to check the rages/day usability - is all this even doable?), but I can instead apply Tireless Rage as an HLA very easily.

 

I'll try to make the two routes more clear with an example.

 

Current solution:

- at 18th lvl Berserkers and Barbarians gain Tireless Rage on their standard rage

- at epic lvls Berserkers and Barbarians can gain a separate "improved rage" which may be selected x times to increase the x/day usability

- standard rages may get additional uses per day via HLA but unless we limit the improved rages to something like 1-2 uses/day it's unlikely the standard rages will ever be used again

 

Alternative solution:

- at 18th lvl Berserkers and Barbarians standard rages upgrade with new features

- at epic lvls Berserkers and Barbarians can select Tireless Rage as an HLA

- at epic lvls Berserkers and Barbarians can further increase the number of available rages per day selecting an HLA

 

What do you think?

 

 

P.S a very annoying issue of the alternative solution would be that dual-classing Berserkers would get the Deathless Frenzy anyway as soon as their new non-berserker class reaches 18th lvl, whereas the current solution grants the Tireless Rage only to characters with 18 berserker's levels.

 

P.P.S on the other hand a good aspect of the alternative solution would be that you'd face AI opponents using the improved rages within SCS. If the improved rages are instead applied via HLAs (a la Refinements) the current AI won't use them unless DavidW updates SCS again to make good use of them.

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I think I like the proposed alternative solution best. The SCS "compatibility" is just icing on the cake. :)

 

Speaking of Berserbarian (I just made that word up) rages, I seem to recall the proposed revised drawbacks was quite huge? Like the bonus would be applied as an equal malus for an the same amount of time as the rage?

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I cannot implement new features to pre-existing rages via HLAs without some hackery (e.g. I should have the HLA remove all pre-existing rages spl and replace them with the new ones, but depending on when the HLA is picked I would also have to check the rages/day usability - is all this even doable?)
As long as the ability is self-targeted, that is easy to do:

 

rage - 146 rageA, 146 rageB

rageA - 206 rageB, apply the lesser effect

rageB - apply the greater effect

rageHLA - 206 rageA

 

I.e. without HLA the character receives the benefit of a lesser rage, and is rendered immune to the greater version. Once HLA is picked, rageA no longer affects him, and the greater rage takes effect.

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I cannot implement new features to pre-existing rages via HLAs without some hackery...
As long as the ability is self-targeted, that is easy to do:

 

rage - 146 rageA, 146 rageB

rageA - 206 rageB, apply the lesser effect

rageB - apply the greater effect

rageHLA - 206 rageA

 

I.e. without HLA the character receives the benefit of a lesser rage, and is rendered immune to the greater version. Once HLA is picked, rageA no longer affects him, and the greater rage takes effect.

I seem to recall I found a problem with the classic shell system solution...but I don't remember anymore.

 

One thing I can immediatly say though is that with such solution AI opponents (in our case SCS) won't ever get the improved rages unless we manually patch the cre files of high lvl characters to give them our custom HLAs.

 

I think I like the proposed alternative solution best. The SCS "compatibility" is just icing on the cake. :)

 

Speaking of Berserbarian (I just made that word up) rages, I seem to recall the proposed revised drawbacks was quite huge? Like the bonus would be applied as an equal malus for an the same amount of time as the rage?

Actually the current drawback for raging is the classic fatigue effect, which I've standardized keeping it almost identical to vanilla and PnP, except I also added a spellcasting speed penalty for those munchkin Bersermages and Clerikers. :D
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One thing I can immediatly say though is that with such solution AI opponents (in our case SCS) won't ever get the improved rages unless we manually patch the cre files of high lvl characters to give them our custom HLAs.
Imo it's easier for SCS to apply the cre patch to a list of characters, than to give them new rages and update scripts.
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