Fighter's HLAs

[Demivrgvs]

For the first release of KR (hopefully next week) I'm going to include a less drastic revision of just the pre-existing fighter's HLAs (only altering vanilla's tables to make the "Greater" versions of some HLAs not available before 25th lvl), whereas future releases will have new HLAs, with unique tables for each kit.

 

This is pretty much what I've come up to, and I'd like to know what do you think about them, or hear any suggestion.

 

 

Vanilla's HLAs

Before starting to discuss each HLA I might also say that in my current build I've secretly decided that each kit gets a particular HLA at 15th lvl. Within AD&D HLAs were gained at 10th+ levels (e.g. WWA could be picked at 11th lvl, Deathblow could be picked at 15th lvl, etc.); this is a first step to get closer to PnP while also getting to spice things up a little more for mid-high levels, which were in severe need of something imo.

 

Right now I have this:

- True Fighter can use Hardiness 1/day at 15th lvl

- Barbarian can use Whirlwind Attack 1/day at 15th lvl

- Berserker can use Power Attack 1/day at 15th lvl

- Kensai can use Deathblow 1/day at 15th lvl

- Wizard Slayer can use Resist Magic 1/day at 15th lvl

What do you think?

 

 

Whirlwind Attack & Gr.Whirlwind Attack

Long story: I don't like WWA setting apr to 10 because it favors too much certain weapon styles, and it ignores the starting apr value (e.g. grand-mastery's increased apr). A character proficient with a two-handed greatsword suddenly has the same attack rate of a dual wielder with grand-mastery in short swords, and the slow firing heavy xbow starts to fire bolts as fast as a fast firing short bow (e.g. Tuigan Bow's main feature completely disappear - not to mention IR's Giant-hair Xbow is even slower than normal xbows for a reason and needs to remain such).

 

Short story: I suggest making WWA double the number of attacks (for 2 rounds) instead of setting apr to 10 (for 1 round).

 

What do you think of vanilla's heavy -4 penalty to hit/dmg rolls? I suggest to lower it to -2, especially considering that the lesser version will actually be the most used one now (unlike vanilla where you simply pick it once and never care about it again). The Greater WWA (with no penalties, and maybe a slightly longer duration?) will now be available only at 25th lvl (pretty much excluding multi-class fighters from reaching it), and might be available only once/day.

 

 

Power Attack & Smite

I was thinking to rename "Power Attack" to something more consistent to what the ability really did (e.g. Stunning Attack), but I can live with the current name (at least I get no complains for the eventual new name). Overall I guess the ability per se is more or less fine (it's pretty much Monk's Stunning Fist on steroids).

 

I do want to rename "Smite" instead, because it doesn't hint the actual effect, and it reminds really too much Paladin's Smite Evil. I think we can just follow what's already there for all other HLAs and call it Greater Power Attack. Regarding its actual effects instead, are we sure the "knockback" effect is an advantage? I assume an epic warrior don't want to knock away a disabled opponent (and then run to him) when he could smash it on the ground and finish him. I suggest to simply make it the natural improvement over PA, adding for example a "no save is allowed if the target has less than 90 hit points". What do you think?

 

P.S Btw, I don't understand why PA was a prerequisite for Critical Strike, which does a completely different thing imo, and I propose to separate CS from this line of HLAs.

 

 

Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow

I never liked (nor used) this HLA because of its HD limitation. It seems either too powerful (against low level creatures it's a no save and die) or completely useless (against 90% of ToB opponents it does absolutely nothing). I suggest a solution much closer to PnP, without HD limitations but allowing a save. Praticallly this HLA will be the fighter's equivalent of Monk's Quivering Palm. If we want to limit this HLA, we may use PW:Kill limitation (target needs to have less than 60 hit points), or simply impose a -4 penalty to thac0 and consider it as a sort of "ultimate called shot".

 

If Deathblow is limited to creatures with less than 60 hit points, then Gr.Deathblow will not. If Deathblow is not limited (thac0 penalty and a relatively easy save might be enough to balance it ) then Gr.Deathblow will improve upon it by slaying creatures with less then 60 hp without allowing a save (aka making this a 1/day PW:Kill which requires a hit roll - pretty much how PnP Deathblow worked).

 

 

Critical Strike & ...

I suppose Critical Strike per se is pretty much fine, is it? Even when the target is not vulnerable to critical hits it's at least a "always hit" ability, not great but useful sometimes (e.g. when a WS needs to quickly and surely hit that damn mage before he re-cast PfMW).

 

If we agree about moving CS away from the Power Attack line of HLAs we may decide to add an improved version (e.g. it also causes some debilitating effect and/or bleeding damage).

 

 

War Cry & ...

I'd improve vanilla HLA and make it one of a "two-tiers" line with something like Battle Cry as prerequisite or Greater War Cry as improvement.

 

Regarding the pre-existing War Cry I have a simple question, does a mighty barbarian/berserker really want his puny opponents to scatter and flee away? Wouldn't a sort of "paralyzed with fear" or "stunned" effect be much better?

 

For the eventual lesser version I suggest making it grant +1 bonus to hit/dmg/saves for allies and -1 penalty to opponents (a sort of quick Chant).

 

P.S I also thought to further differentiate the kits giving them different war cries (e.g. True Fighters getting a buffing Battle Orders, Barbarian and Berserker a debuffing Battle Cry, Kensai a stunning/damaging Ki Shout) but I'm really not sure about it, and in any case that will have to wait later versions of KR.

 

 

Hardiness

I've always had serious problems with the uncapped %. Vanilla game made really too easy to reach incredibly high % values or even 100%+ resistance (allowing to be healed by a mace crushing your skull, which is quite silly), and the current state of things also hampers the upcoming addition of damage resistance to IR's armor revisions.

 

Long story short: I suggest to reduce the resistance from 40% to 20%, but to make it work vs. any type of damage, not just physical damage.

 

 

Resist Magic

This HLA looks too much as a magical ability rather than a martial feat imo, and the only class I can imagine using the current version without "breaking the immersion" is the Wizard Slayer (or Paladins). Am I the only one thinking it?

 

What do you think about replacing magic resistance with something like a heavy bonus to all saves? That would fit much better any type of epic warrior, doesn't it?

[Kalindor]

Food for thought:

One thing to keep in mind is that, if you up WW and GWW to 2 rounds, they can be combined with other abilities like Deathblow. You may not consider this overpowered if you keep in mind that they could just be hasted anyway.

 

One possibility for an HLA for some class is a passive bonus to magical damage resistance that could be taken multiple times. This could have the effect of making overpowered magical damage spells like Magic Missile and Horrid Wilting less of a no-brainer for Sorcerers and enemy mages. *Edit: Could add this as a property of mage robes in IR instead.

 

Would using Deathblow with the vorpal sword lead to a situation where they have to save or die twice?

 

*Edit2: I trust your judgement on this, but you may want to consider whether the fighter classes that will get several abilities like stances, etc. will border on too many abilities when HLA's are factored in. I don't want them to become unwieldy to play. I suppose they can never really compare with high-level mage spell selection anyway.

[Demivrgvs]

One thing to keep in mind is that, if you up WW and GWW to 2 rounds, they can be combined with other abilities like Deathblow. You may not consider this overpowered if you keep in mind that they could just be hasted anyway.

You already said what I was going to say. WWA pratically allows a fighter to get a sort of short lasting Improved Haste, thus I don't see how WWA can be a serious problem when having the real Improved Haste would still allow for a much longer duration.

 

Regarding Deathblow, I can easily make it a "one hit only" if playtesting will say it's too powerful. I've not done it right away because I wanted Deathblow to allow the epic fighter to destroy multiple "low lvl" or "low hp" targets, but I guess making the target immune to consecutive hits could somewhat preserve that while keeping it balanced against a single target (who might be hit multiple times in a row). Mmm...

 

Would using Deathblow with the vorpal sword lead to a situation where they have to save or die twice?

Yes, pretty much like using Power Attack with Celestial Fury forces the target to save twice to avoid being stunned.

 

I trust your judgement on this, but you may want to consider whether the fighter classes that will get several abilities like stances, etc. will border on too many abilities when HLA's are factored in. I don't want them to become unwieldy to play. I suppose they can never really compare with high-level mage spell selection anyway.

I've thought the same and reached the same conclusion: spellcasters will always require A LOT more micromanaging and it has never been considered unwieldy to play.

 

That being said, the class with more options is the True Fighter and it has "only" two stances and the x/day Called Shot (albeit the latter offers multiple options). The Tactician ability was supposed to be an x/day ability too (that's how it works in PnP) but I've decided to make it a permanent feature exactly because of this matter (and also because this way it can eventually be used by the AI without requiring new scripts).

 

One possibility for an HLA for some class is a passive bonus to magical damage resistance that could be taken multiple times. This could have the effect of making overpowered magical damage spells like Magic Missile and Horrid Wilting less of a no-brainer for Sorcerers and enemy mages. *Edit: Could add this as a property of mage robes in IR instead.

If you look at the updated first post you'll see I've planned quite a few "passive HLAs", and I don't know if "permanent magic damage resistance" would fit any fighter except the Wizard Slayer, who already have the passive improvement to magic resistance to pick (up to 4 times).

 

Btw, within IR there already is a mage robe offering magic damage resistance, and one heavy armor too.

 

What's your thoughts on Resist Magic? It's the HLA I have more problems handling...

[Kalindor]

What's your thoughts on Resist Magic? It's the HLA I have more problems handling...

I have never thought it thematically suited the fighter/barbarian/ranger. I think it would be a fine addition to the Wizard Slayer as either a passive boost to his innate MR or as a temporary 100% MR. The barbarian strikes me as more of a brute and should not thematically have options to enhance defenses against magic IMO. I could imagine that a veteran fighter, ranger, or paladin possessing a powerful will as a result of training and hardship. Such will and determination could translate into the saving throw bonus you mentioned. They are, perhaps, just too stubborn to succumb to external forces attempting to control their minds. In 3E terms, it would be a heavy bonus to will saves.

 

As an alternative, you could consider a HLA that would be selectable 1-3 times that would provide some small passive bonus to magic resistance (10%?) or save vs. spells. Perhaps your particular fighter spends time training his resistances to magical attack, much like a Wizard Slayer but without the lifelong commitment. This would provide the option to have your fighter focus in resisting magic at the expense of selecting a combat ability HLA.

 

*Edit: Another alternative would beturning the Magic Resistance HLA into a Wizard Slayer ability that temporarily bestows half of his innate magic resistance on nearby allies.

[Ogi]

Bit necro but IMHO one of most irritating things that makes my OCD going nuts is doubling of HLA, and fact that most of them is useless. What I mean is that for example you only take WW once and then never again because GWW doing the same thing only better, and I never take deathblow or its greater version.

 

So perhaps somomething like this:

 

Whirlwind - Sets attacks to 10, 1 round -2(3/4?)hit/dmg. Doubling APR wil be useless because of improved haste and will make TWS even more powerful.

 

Greater Whirlwind - removes -hit/dmg penalty from whirlwind.

 

Deathblow - agree with no level limit but save, no HP limit is necessary.

 

Greater deathblow - improwes deathblow by adding save penalty anywhere between -2 to -4, may be taken only once.

 

Power attack - is OK as it is.

 

Smite - upgrade for power attack, increase save penalty by -2/3/4? May be taken only once.

 

Critical strike - good as it is, I agree with no preq. IMHO no greater version is needed.

 

War cry - level 2 spell sa HLA... yeah, better made it buff/debuff +2hit/dmg -2 hit/dmg, duration 5 rounds. Adhere to KISS so no special version for kits, no greater version is needed.

 

Hardiness - I think that 40% psychical resist is OK. Perhaps fixed duration of 5 rounds?.

 

Resist magic - Counterpart to hardiness, no MR but elemental/magic dmg resist, 40%, 5 rounds?

 

One last thing, you mod needs to be self contained it can't rely on other mods for balance. That why I think hardiness should remain almost as it is.

[yarpen]

I'll remind you about PnP idea for Warrior HLA: Bravery. Just a pernament immunity to fear/morale loss.

Also, PnP Hardiness gave you minHP for 3 rounds. Could be a possible HLA to implement with different name (unless Berserker already having this ability makes it meh).

[Ogi]

Problem is that with exp table revision and max level you will got what 10/11 HLA, will you chose bravery when it can be duplicated with 1lvl divine spell? Hardiness minHP means you are immortal for 3 rounds? Interesting but perhaps bit overcomplicated. HLA should be all equally good.

 

Oh and anybody knows why the hell I still don't received activation email? What is procedure if you don't get one?

[Kalindor]

You just have to be patient. Send a PM to theacefes and ask politely to be activated if you can send PM's.

[Darkersun]

@Ogi You know mods are for free and the idea is that all revision mods should be used together.

[Demivrgvs]

Bit necro but IMHO one of most irritating things that makes my OCD going nuts is doubling of HLA, and fact that most of them is useless. What I mean is that for example you only take WW once and then never again because GWW doing the same thing only better, and I never take deathblow or its greater version.

I do shared your same concern about Greater versions making Lesser ones quickly and completely pointless, and found a way to avoid it. Making the Greater version of an HLA directly improve the Lesser one could indeed be another valid solution, albeit much more complicated in terms of implementation.

Pratically the two solutions look like this:

1) get Lesser HLA at 20th lvl, as many times as you wish, then get the Greater at 25th lvl, can be picked only once

2) get Lesser HLA at 20th lvl, as many times as you wish, then improve all of its x/day uses at 25th lvl

In the first case you can have a "power lvl 1 for lessers and power lvl 3 for the greater ones", with the latter solution the upgraded HLA need to have something like "power lvl 2" or you end up with with tons of super-powerful HLAs.

 

I think both solutions are valid, with different pros and cons, and I may actually use 2) for some of them, but 1) is easier to implement, and allows to justify single class warriors getting at least a 1/day use of a stupidly powerful ability, which is somewhat needed imo when other classes get things like Summon Deva/Planetar, or Dragon's Breath.

 

Whirlwind Attack

Whirlwind - Sets attacks to 10, 1 round -2(3/4?)hit/dmg. Doubling APR wil be useless because of improved haste and will make TWS even more powerful.

I always do whatever I can to keep dual-wielding in check, but in this case it is actually not fair imo. If you build a fighter to deal big damage with a slow greatsword, it makes no sense that he can also suddenly get the same apr of of a fighter using two light weapons. It is also "unfair" for warriors like paladins and rangers to get from it the same apr of a True Fighter with Grandmaster. Doubling 2x apr might be a slight nerf to this HLA for many builds, but it is fine imo considering this was by far the most powerful HLA for warriors.

 

Hardiness

Hardiness - I think that 40% psychical resist is OK. Perhaps fixed duration of 5 rounds?.

 

One last thing, you mod needs to be self contained it can't rely on other mods for balance. That why I think hardiness should remain almost as it is.

Actually, 40% resistance is "problematic" with or without IR/SR, and it's probably worse without them (because of things like vanilla's Defender flail). Furthermore, even within KR itself there will be other reasons to keep it in-check, such as as Barbarian getting passive HLAs to permanently increase his resistance.

[Ogi]

Actually TWS fighter never take WW/GWW because of improved haste, and I'm afraid that this will be same for other kinds of fighter now, unless you change that spell(+2hit,+2save vs breath, +2 movement rate, +2 weapon speed, +2 attacks?).

Problem with level 25 taken only once HLA is that it need to be really good for me to feel like it's worth it.

Rangers/Paladins access to WW/GWW isn't that much of a problem it's burst dmg and you have other choices of HLA to take and with so few of them, you will face some difficult choices. While TWS fighter will smash people faces with lot of APR non stop.

Ah so you are author of rest of revision mods... man I feel rather dumb now... ignore that part about hardiness then.

[Kalindor]

1) get Lesser HLA at 20th lvl, as many times as you wish, then get the Greater at 25th lvl, can be picked only once

I like this if it indeed means that only single-class warriors can select the feat. You can then go hog-wild and make it as powerful as you want. I am also in favor of the proposed changes to Whirlwind Attack.

[Demivrgvs]

Actually TWS fighter never take WW/GWW because of improved haste, and I'm afraid that this will be same for other kinds of fighter now, unless you change that spell(+2hit,+2save vs breath, +2 movement rate, +2 weapon speed, +2 attacks?).

You mean like this?

 

Problem with level 25 taken only once HLA is that it need to be really good for me to feel like it's worth it.

I like this if it indeed means that only single-class warriors can select the feat. You can then go hog-wild and make it as powerful as you want.

That's the plan.

 

Rangers/Paladins access to WW/GWW isn't that much of a problem it's burst dmg and you have other choices of HLA to take and with so few of them, you will face some difficult choices. While TWS fighter will smash people faces with lot of APR non stop.

TWS were stupidly overpowered for many reasons in vanilla, going from equipping Belm off-hand, or most notably using vanilla's Improved Haste which was indeed insane (not sure why I never tweaked it within SR).

 

On a side note, while I cannot guarantee fully customized HLA tables for each class, I'm pretty sure each class will have quite a few custom ones, while losing some of the old ones. For example Paladins do not get Whirlwind Attack on my current first draft (Rangers still get it instead) and ideally I'd like to give them a customized Power Attack (e.g. Devastating Smite).

 

Ah so you are author of rest of revision mods... man I feel rather dumb now... ignore that part about hardiness then.

Yes I am. Your point about the mod having to work fine even by itself is still valid though.

 

I am also in favor of the proposed changes to Whirlwind Attack.

The 2x apr? You know that it already works like that within the current beta you are using, do you? The Barbarian gets it for free at level 15.

[Kalindor]

The 2x apr? You know that it already works like that within the current beta you are using, do you? The Barbarian gets it for free at level 15.

 

I will try it out then. I don't usually test all the way up to level 15 as I start in BG1 most of the time.