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What would you want to talk to Sand about?

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Grobnar? Yeah, the two of them do seem to have an interesting relationship. Maybe not as odd as Grobnar and Bishop (why *would* Grobnar trust Bishop with the activation word?), but they have their moments.


As for the rest, forgive me for not responding to them individually. The ideas are great, but time spent posting is time away from modding, and the sooner I get current projects wrapped up, the sooner I can get to work on Sand. We're still looking at the beginning of May.

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I am soooo looking forward to this. I was incredibly disappointed to discover that, once again, the devs had dropped the ball on the romance front. (Ah, well. At least the single option given in HOTU was awesome.) And while I'm fond of Casavir, I always did prefer the witty-banter type, and no one does that better than Sand!

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Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not reading anyone's fanfic for ideas. It's one small step short of plagiarism.


When I'm writing in a genre, I make it a point to avoid reading anything in that genre. I don't want to see something that's a good idea, forget where I saw it, and then use it thinking it was my own idea all along. If it turns out that the themes are similar, I can always excuse the similarity by saying that great minds think alike... as long as I can swear before all I hold sacred that I didn't actually rip it off someone else and forget about it.


Know what I mean?

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Guest Eyvindr

How about some race sensitive dialoges?

These could be friendship talks too, but they could have some flirty air in them.


As an elf I believe probably the PC would find it interesting to meet with another of his/her race who is not Daeghun (or Elanee for that matter. She was kind of creepy :p ). Growing up in West Harbor I guess s/he didn't have much chance to meet with other elves and Daeghun couldn't be much of a help when it came to understand his/her own race and culture. Elanee also grew up in the swamp, among the druids so she isn't much of a help either.

Sand, however, seems to be more "worldwise", and while we don't know much about his background (and I am aware that you don't want to give him one) like if he was born among humans or elves, I don't see why wouldn't the PC try to talk to him about what being an elf means.

I just know when I first played NWN2, I played an elf, and I felt I could jump into Sand's neck when he appeared for the first time because I was so happy to see a fellow elf - one who doesn't have manical depression and neither is a voyeur...


Of course this doesn't mean that he should be like Xan in Kuyok's mod. He could very well brush off the topic, or have some other, maybe even surprised reaction?


Then again, what if the PC is a drow? Wouldn't Sand feel at least a little bit uncomfortable around him/her? Or wouldn't he find the situation the PC is in (growing up on the surface, raised by an elf father in a human village, and being intorduced by Duncan as 'kin') curious, or even ironic? I am not saying that he should be a raccist, but knowing the history between the two races I was surprised to see that he had nothing to say about this in the original game.


I know this one was mentioned, but really, it would be nice to see Duncan's reaction. I don't think they hate each other with Sand - they seemed more like old friends to me (well... with a cat-and-dog like friendship, but friendship none the less). Yet, when Duncan introduced the PC as kin he sounded really overjoyed to have the chance to play the respectable role of an uncle. I can really imagine, after that, how shocked he would be to see that his "almost-best-friend-but-not-really" is hitting on his newly found niece/nephew or vice versa. :down:

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I don't think Sand and Duncan hate each other, either. They seem to enjoy a kind of antagonistic friendship, where each of them tries to see who can insult the other more. After all, if Sand hated Duncan that much, he wouldn't just stop by on a whim like he does the first time you meet Sand. No, if Sand really didn't like Duncan, he would simply avoid him. They're comfortable enough with each other to tease each other. A lot of people do joke around with those they're closest to.


I'm probably not going to be able to get away with avoiding the race issue entirely, as much as I would like to. I'm not a fan of race-specific romance content because it's exclusive by definition. I use "exclusive" here to mean that it excludes the other raceds. It's a "members only" club, and if your character's ears aren't the right shape, well, too bad. Blech.


One of the things I like best about Sand is that he isn't into being an elf the way Xan is, for example. Sand is rather dismissive of the whole thing, as if to say "Yes, I am an elf. I also happen to have a birthmark shaped like the Moonshaes, but I don't have any control over that, either." Not that he would actually say something like that, of course. There's nothing to suggest that Sand grew up around other elves. He doesn't have an elven-sounding name.


Getting down off my soapbox, the major problem with having Sand discuss what it's like to be an elf is that it imposes a past on him. It forces him to have had some kind of a background, be it among elves, humans, or what have you. We know that Sand lived in Luskan at one point, so that subject is fair game, but we don't know that he *ever* lived among other elves... nor do we know that he didn't. The problem with imposing a past on a character is that it is *bound* to contradict what some fanfic writer has determined to be the only possible past this character could have. I'm not going there.


But yeah, he could brush the question off or be surprised by it. This could lead to a discussion about the PC's experience growing up with Daeghun, which is a much, much more promising subject. Did the PC have a good relationship with Daeghun? Was it straied? What about the PC's childhood memories, etc.


And why limit it to elves? Wouldn't a dwarven PC be curious?


So no, I won't be writing any "elves only" dialogues for the same reason that I wouldn't write any "sorcerer only" dialogues. I might put race filters (or class filters) on particular lines of dialogue, but entire talks? No. Besides, it's a pain in the butt to script.

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No, they aren't. They would just ensure that I would never actually finish. I'm completely serious about that. If somebody tells me that I HAVE to include something, it completely robs me of any motivation I have to do it, so if that's what you're getting at, I'll abandon the idea right now and save myself a lot of work.


Sand isn't all about being an elf. He doesn't go around using elvish in his dialogue, he never once mentions anything in connection with his race. Inserting a sudden interest in elvenness into the character now would be changing it, and that's something we really tried not to do with the romance expansions. Neeshka is far more involved with being a tiefling. It has affected her life in a very profound way, yet even there, she doesn't obsess about it in dialogue. From what I've been able to gather from the Neeshka development thread, Neeshka has certain dialogue paths open to tieflings or aasimars, but there aren't any tiefling/aasimar-specific dialogues. Sand would be the same. If you're an elf or a dwarf, for example, he might have some additional dialogue options available, but it won't be whole dialogues.


Do you even meet any elves in the game who aren't Elanee? There are the ones in the Ruins, so lets use that as an example. One of them (don't remember which one, at the moment) talks about how elves and dwarves worked together in harmony in defense of the empire. Sand might remark on that, and I could very well imagine the dialogue evolving differently for elven or dwarven protagonists, but he's going to comment regardless of the race of the KC. So yes, the path the dialogue follows would be different, but not the fact that there is a dialogue at all.


We're getting ahead of ourselves in a big way right here. The first thing I'm going to work on will be the flirt pack. It's possible that there might be some content tailored to race, class, or alignment, but it isn't going to play the most important role in the flirts. You're teasing him, coaxing him, flattering him, and/or discussing general topics with him, true, but it isn't a fully developed romance by any stretch of the imagination.


Regardless of whether something *should* be done, of which I am by no means convinced, there's a question of whether it *can* be done. Due to personal reasons beyond my control, I have to have this done by the end of April. Any work that remains incomplete at that point will probably remain that way. This isn't to say that the framework could never be expanded upon, either by myself or by someone else, but it's possible that the update that occurs at the end of April might be the last I do for a good long time. Neeshka will come out eventually, so the mod will get updated by Domi then, but the Sand flirts will be done by the end of April.


Sorry if this post sounds harsh. I do realize that it is very blunt. The simple fact is that I am operating under unalterable time constraints. I can do a lot in 10 days. Before the toolset ate the romance and I had to start over from the beginning, I wrote the entire Casavir romance in six weeks, and I was working full-time at that point. So a 10-day flirt pack would be extensive enough to maintain player interest, at least as a distraction from Bishop. That said, 10 days is only 10 days. I need to keep this manageable in order to have something to release at the end of April.


So here's the question: Would you rather have something or would you rather have nothing?


Edit: Gotta say, this discussion has really killed my enthusiasm for the project. I've got a lot of other projects I could be working on. I wanted to do the Sand flirt pack because I know a lot of people do want to be able to flirt with Sand, and also because time might be running out for NWN2 anyway. With no ability to mod new NPCs, quests, or storylines into the game, it's got limited replay value as it is, so if I'm going to do it, I've got to do it soon. Now it feels like a chore. When a modder says no, don't push. It doesn't end well. It will be a few more days before I can devote any kind of time to this. I really hope that between now and then, I'll be able to muster a little enthusiasm for it.

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Guest Shades

I completely agree with Berelinde on this.


I tend to dislike any restrictions on romances, be they race, alignment, class, or even stats. Mainly because these things are all so open to interpretation: your PC might be lawful evil, but they smart enough to appear good and manipulate people etc.


Anyway, Berelinde made the points that came to my mind. Sand is not a very 'singing and dancing with nature' type of elf. You can't assume that because someone is of this race, they must know everything there is to know about it. The best place to learn about elves would be an elven city :down:


For being curious about elves in general I don't see why this would be an elf only question. Any race could be curious, either in general or because Sand himself is an elf.


I do look forward to playing through this flirtpack when it comes out, I'd love to see a romance too of course but I think things have to be taken one step at a time. Although I'm eager to play BG2 Gavin (along with Haldamir) I hope you're not working yourself too hard Berelinde and that you've got plenty of time to rest too. Thank you for being such a wonderful, dedicated and helpful modder :p

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Guest Deedlit

Gasp!I come back in this topic and things seem to have gone so awry,why? :p


Last time I left,it was more or less "Nice ideas,but I will have time to work on this only around May,there will be a flirtpack and,if enough feedback,MAYBE a romance".


Now not only it seems the project may be dropped entirely (which honestly would sadden me to the deep beyond),but you mention you just have 10 days to release the flirtpack (which anyway won't have a romance for sure) and if not all closed?


I am honestly sorry for whatever reason is imposing you this time constraint and/or making you so nervous;I can just hope you will manage and you will be good and healthy.


As for the discussion itself,maybe it was a misunderstanding of sort;maybe here people are saying the same things with different words...which is "it's fun to have your race/class recognized".This may lead to "additional options" in dialogues,as you yourself said,but I don't think people were expecting entire dialogues race based.And if so,think that this may require to do two different romances :down: and presently even the flirtpack is in hazard it seems ???


As for Sand himself,I honestly don't know about his past (I didn't see any developer commentary on that,not sure if there's some somewhere),but he gives me the idea he lived most of his life among mages or scholars of any race (maybe mainly in luskan? who knows),or that anyway he has a scholar mind,so yes,he knows he is an elf,but he doesn't have that super-elf pride...he just has the Sand-pride :p

Now puns on being elf or whatever may be made (like the guy in west harbor,forgot his name...that calls him the swamp elf on occasion,when you go back home!),but race-pride talks?Not likely...of course this is just my opinion,so take it as it is,nothing serious.


Well,finally,I just hope that you won't drop this project Berelinde ??? and that you will eventually develope it into a full-fledged romance,that would be reason enough to replay NWN2 trust me,and I think many people see it like that :(


I can just pray you will regain enthusiasm for this project,I know I still have it and only reason I didn't post for a while,was because I thought I would made you nervous with all my comments and suggestions :/

So I waited patientily...but I would've never expected it to turn like this :p I am really sorry :D


I any occasion,good luck with both your project and,primarly,your life *hugs* <--- hope I am allowed,if not,I deeply apologize >_<

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Guest Deedlit



"when the modder says no,it's a no"


So very true...then why bother with people who wants to force you on something?It was very sweet of you to take suggestions from us,but in the end,you are the lead writer....you decide the flavour the romance should have,or how it should develope!It's very commendable to try and cover all kinds of taste,but don't let people get at you too much....you did an awesome job with Casavir romance,I am sure you would even with Sand...so I still pledge the Sand-romance cause,but I will understand if you wanna drop it,although I would probably be very depressed for days :down:


Anyway,from the bottom of heart,cheer up and good luck with all of your projects,present and future,game and not :p

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I'll be giving the flirt pack 100% between 20 April and 30 April. I'm still planning on going through with it, it's just that I need to get excited about the project again.


Things have changed a bit since I said "May." The reasons are personal, and those who need to know already do. Suffice it to say that it's nothing tragic. There's no grim medical condition or anything. It's only that real life will command more of my time than I've got, so I've got to cut way, way back on modding for a while, and I don't want to promise something I can't deliver. I know that I can get a flirt pack together by the end of April, so that's what I'm going to promise.

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Guest Deedlit

Well the important thing is you are well then,the rest can be adjusted :down:


I can only wish you again all the good luck this world can muster!


As for me,I'll wait patiently and hope that one day,my char will be able to pick on Sand,asking him how many charges per day does his rod of wonders have (and enjoying his reaction to stuff like that) :p




P.S. just to say,there is a project to revamp NWN2 OC on DA...it's an amateur project but...I think it shows interest for this game is not dead at all ??? cheers!

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