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Revised Potions


Demivrgvs

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@Ardanis, are you suggesting to tweak Potion of Firebreath (into cold?) and Oil of Fiery Burning (into acid?) Personally I'm fine with them as they are.
I meant making Fiery Burning acidic indeed, and Firebreath instead holy water. But one of mental boosters would surely do better as water, partly so because they're already often sold in temples :)

 

Had no cold in mind, but since you've mentioned it, there's Potion of Icedust (wand16), granting 100% fire res for 1 round. Not much useful imo, and is only dropped by gnome slaver wizard in Slums and somebody from UD's ambush party of adventurers.

 

Potion of Agility

Should spells like Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc. be included?
That's too much imo, becoming on par with vanilla Magic Blocking. This potion is also common, so even while it's adjustable, I'd try to remain rather low with the bonus.
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Potion of Sight

Potion summons invisible Thief with 50 skill points in Detecting Traps. Who detects traps via script. So he has 'Detect Traps' always launched and he walks close to potion drinker.

I think it's much better than auto-detecting traps or having 50% chance for that per round. It detects most of weak traps (usefull) but doesn't touch all of the advanced ones (balanced). I don't think it's a bad solution.

Actually when it comes to "detect" traps I think even 50% is enough to detect everything, it's just that each round you have 50% chance to detect it, am I wrong? I'm almost sure "detect illusions" works like that too.

 

That being said, I said I had serious doubts on the end result (letting anyone detect traps and illusions), not how to achieve it.

 

 

Potion of Agility

I hope this potion will have some Dexterity requirement. Maybe 13 - just to not make most clumsy character in game *evade* *evade* ninja, where guys with 18 dexterity cannot even imagine about such a things.
You do have a point (a clumsy cleric in heavy armor evading everything looks strange indeed)...but isn't it silly to put a DEX requirement on a potion? You cannot drink it unless you're already agile? :D

 

And the last thing - isn't making drinker always succseed in Saves vs. Breath better? It halves damage from most of invocation spells so it's a bit more balanced.
No, for quite a lot of reasons:

* it wouldn't work without SR because vanilla's invocations don't have "reflex" based saves (aka vs breath)

* with SR installed it would work against spells like Flame Arrow, Incendiary Cloud, etc. and you have voted against it yourself

* it would make this potion a lesser Potion of Magic Shielding (always save vs any type of save)

* ...

 

Should spells like Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc. be included?
That's too much imo, becoming on par with vanilla Magic Blocking. This potion is also common, so even while it's adjustable, I'd try to remain rather low with the bonus.
I was asking for the concept, but I do agree RR's solution is more than enough. Fine with me.

 

 

Potion of Icedust

Had no cold in mind, but since you've mentioned it, there's Potion of Icedust (wand16), granting 100% fire res for 1 round. Not much useful imo, and is only dropped by gnome slaver wizard in Slums and somebody from UD's ambush party of adventurers.
Mmm, is that really a potion? It's a "potion" with a wand filename that doesn't work like a potion (you drink it and everyone in the area are affected?!? :) ) and has no unique bam.
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Actually when it comes to "detect" traps I think even 50% is enough to detect everything, it's just that each round you have 50% chance to detect it, am I wrong? I'm almost sure "detect illusions" works like that too.

Certainly not. You'll discover most of traps in locations from main quests and just lesser ones - but you'll never find traps in for example places like Arledian's Room or house where there is Horn of Valhalla. I'm not sure about it working 50% chance per round, but I'm pretty sure about fact that with 50 skill points you cannot detect some of the traps.

 

You do have a point (a clumsy cleric in heavy armor evading everything looks strange indeed)...but isn't it silly to put a DEX requirement on a potion? You cannot drink it unless you're already agile?

You cannot gain benefits from drinking this potion if you're not agile.

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It's not that relevant to the topic of Revised Potions, but mostly about IR itself (and, to a lesser degree, about SR) there's something that I always quite disliked in the way things were handled :

It's about trying to turn AD&D system of handling things into D&D 3rd / 4th edition.

 

For example :

Potions that would grant a fixed 18 stat were usefull for pretty much any character that have a score that is a bit too low in a specific stat.

STR 18, DEX 18, CON 18 are all great potions for fighting characters that have low physical scores.

INT 18 is great to learn scrolls

WIS 18 is nice to cast wish spells

CHA 18 is a good way to earn more money / spend less money.

 

I've the same problem with the way you've altered the belts of XXX strength or any item altering stats.

A belt of stone giant strength should grant its user the strength of a stone giant, even if the character only has a starting STR of 9.

 

I also find it bad to have an item benefit a character MUCH MUCH more than another character.

A character with 18 STR will have much more benefit from +2 STR than a character with 9 base STR.

While in D&D 3.0+ this is logical, it's not logical in AD&D.

 

These items / potions are supposed to grant the user the best possible score for a human. That means a score of 18.

 

Now, of course, if your character already has a score of 18, these potions are of no use. But I find this way of handling much, much more logical and true to AD&D.

 

It's kinda the same with the way you're rationalizing who gets to use an evade potion. These potions are meant to be magical in essence. If you don't want a character to be able to drink a potion, just restrict it's class from drinking the item. That's the way the developpers (and AD&D) intended potions to work.

 

Now, there's a lot of things that I like about the mod, too, and even if I don't use it due to these elements that are way too much game-altering for my taste, I still follow its progression and the new ideas.

 

It's also one of the reason why I dislike the way the "Save penalities across the board" thing was handled in SR, even if I love everything else that's been done.

 

TLDR :

BGII = AD&D, not D&D 4th edition, and that's mostly what I dislike about the [something] revision mods : a lot of the changes are made with the 4th edition in mind, and I feel like the game is losing its flavour this way, somehow. I'm not sure if I'm the only person that has this feeling..

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General comments

BGII = AD&D, not D&D 4th edition, and that's mostly what I dislike about the [something] revision mods : a lot of the changes are made with the 4th edition in mind, and I feel like the game is losing its flavour this way, somehow.
I'll start replying on this matter because you seem to insist on it. I HATE 4th EDITION, thus it's very unlikely revisions mods will ever take much inspiration from there (I could just as well take inspiration from World of Warcraft in that case :) ).

 

The first PnP source for IR is AD&D Encyclopedia, and thus IR is by far much closer to AD&D than you think. That being said, I've always stated that I don't mind mixing in a little of 3rd edition when it has better ideas or solutions, and I almost never do it without a large consensus.

 

It's also one of the reason why I dislike the way the "Save penalities across the board" thing was handled in SR, even if I love everything else that's been done.
SR V4 will partially restore the old system, making it much more similar to AD&D. I's a long story though, and this is not the place to discuss it.

 

 

Stat-nhancing Potions

For example :

Potions that would grant a fixed 18 stat were usefull for pretty much any character that have a score that is a bit too low in a specific stat.

STR 18, DEX 18, CON 18 are all great potions for fighting characters that have low physical scores.

In fact I'm not against potions which set (physical) stats per se, I do explained this whole matter countless times, but:

* for STR 18 we already have tons of STR enhancing potions which set such stat to pratically every value, do we really need another one?!?

* for the DEX one it's another story, mainly tied to the fact I'm altering the other potions. I'm not against its vanilla version, but its appeal is very low imo.

* for CON 18 I can only say that it works really really bad. The AI can rarely use it because a lot of monsters don't have an NPC class assigned, if you don't have a warrior class you don't get additional hit points from CON>16, and the vast mojority of vanilla characters don't get much from it

Most players and SCS AI almost never use these potions because they have a very low appeal, and IR is all about making every item at least somewhat appealing.

 

INT 18 is great to learn scrolls

WIS 18 is nice to cast wish spells

CHA 18 is a good way to earn more money / spend less money.

It never existed a CHA potion and I'd be really against it for a simple reason: it breaks the whole "buy/sell" system (it's even more silly when you buy such potion from a merchant and two seconds later he/she sells you everything at a lower price because of it).

 

Anyway, I don't like to repeat myself every three seconds, thus if you don't know why I don't like this kind of potion read here. Ardanis also added a good point regarding mods with dialogs based on mental stats (e.g. RR, or even eventual new mods).

 

I've the same problem with the way you've altered the belts of XXX strength or any item altering stats.

A belt of stone giant strength should grant its user the strength of a stone giant, even if the character only has a starting STR of 9.

 

I also find it bad to have an item benefit a character MUCH MUCH more than another character.

A character with 18 STR will have much more benefit from +2 STR than a character with 9 base STR.

While in D&D 3.0+ this is logical, it's not logical in AD&D.

Your logic is kinda faulty imo. You say "I also find it bad to have an item benefit a character MUCH MUCH more than another character" but that's exactly what happens when you set stats instead of increasing it. If you don't like instead that going from STR 13 to 15 doesn't change a thing you should blame AD&D rules that in this case are pretty bad.
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TLDR :

BGII = AD&D, not D&D 4th edition, and that's mostly what I dislike about the [something] revision mods : a lot of the changes are made with the 4th edition in mind, and I feel like the game is losing its flavour this way, somehow. I'm not sure if I'm the only person that has this feeling..

 

I certainly think some of the people that follow and make suggestions for this mod would see it move in that direction, Demi seems to keep it pretty well grounded. More like a mix of AD&D and 3rd Ed. which is just about perfect for D&D.

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Well, actually, the only thing that I disliked about Vanilla potions was the fact that they are easily dispellable.

Stat-enhancing potions last a LONG time, and, when you have a character that has less than 16 CON (and a lot of NPCs do), potions are usefull. There's also very few fighter-characters that have a natural 18 CON.

The 18 str one is useful for characters that are not fighter-types.

The 18 dex one is almost always usefull since there's very few character that have a 18 natural dex. It almost always grant at least +2 to AC, and a bonus to firing missile weapons.

 

Nevermind about the 18 cha :D

Again, there's a lot of things I like a lot. It's just that I don't think that all potions should grant a bonus even if your character already has an exceptionnal stat, kinda like the Thief Mastery potions grant less and less bonus depending on the thief level.

I always found these potions to be nice "band-aids" for character with "not-perfect-stats" when you're dungeon crawling, or facing dangerous foes.

 

Anyway, thanks for answering, it's not that I dislike what you're doing (I know better than that) it's just the feeling I had when looking at some of the changes.

 

But, well, i'm the kind of guy that dislikes radical changes, so that might be my problem. (For example, I do not like using mods that change the way the armor system is working, or altering too much Vanilla content)

That's why I do love SR, because most spells are just Vanilla spells, but smartly altered to be usefull. (And also one of the reason why I disliked the way save penalities had been altered)

Same goes for SCSI & II : you get to keep the vanilla feel, while having smarter ennemies, it blends within the vanilla universe.

 

Whenever I think about installing a mod, having it blend flawlessly with the existing universe is one of my top priorities.

 

I didn't want to bother you, just wanted to share the way I see these things, and I'm sure you're well aware that I have a lot of respect for your work :)

 

Edit.: Nevermind, the altered potion of mastery is something that's done in RR.

I need to sleep a little bit more. /self-slap

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Like most of what's been proposed, but I can't really abide with the DEX-req for a potion of Agility. I kind of get the idea of "if you're a clumsy fool, this won't help you", but a DEX-req on a potion is silly. And anyways, it's magic (or magic chemistry) so I don't care if makes the jolly green giant, in a platemail, capable of doing somersaults :)

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Well, actually, the only thing that I disliked about Vanilla potions was the fact that they are easily dispellable.

Stat-enhancing potions last a LONG time...

Almost all IR players (at least those posting in the forums, I know 90% of players don't post at all) agreed that potions shouldn't last a LONG time, and this is even more "necessary" now that potion effects are not-dispellable. Having long lasting, not dispellable, potions which set stats to 18 would be very lame imo, because then every character can easily become a semi god by drinking a bunch of potions after resting. Is it so cool to have characters lose their distinctive features and become just another "18 in every stat charname"?

 

when you have a character that has less than 16 CON (and a lot of NPCs do), potions are usefull. There's also very few fighter-characters that have a natural 18 CON.
Well, I'm not an expert of BG1, but in BG2 we have:

* Mazzy and Minsc with CON 16 --> up to +18 hp for him, which is really fine, but Mazzy is generally used as an archer

* Jaheira, Keldorn and Valygar with CON 17 --> +9 hp is not that great, especially considering Potion of Heroism does that and much more

* Korgan and Sarevok with CON 18 and 19 respectively --> no effect

Only Minsc would find such potion appealing.

 

If you consider non-warrior it goes slightly better, but not much because Edwin, Imoen, Nalia, and Yoshi have CON 16 (no effect). The only characters who can really gain something from this potion are Haer'Dalis, Aerie and Viconia.

 

The 18 str one is useful for characters that are not fighter-types.
It's +1 to hit and +2 to dmg at max, unless you want to drink the potion to carry around 10 plate mails with a weak character (I hate this from a roleplaying point of view). I'm not going to change it much, because Potion of Rage (a potion from AD&D, not 4th edition) will do almost the same, but with a slightly more unique flavor imo.

 

The 18 dex one is almost always usefull since there's very few character that have a 18 natural dex. It almost always grant at least +2 to AC, and a bonus to firing missile weapons.
Again, I disagree. I'd say there are very few characters with low DEX instead, and those who have low/medium DEX (e.g. Anomen, Keldorn, Korgan and Minsc) generally equip heavy/medium armors (which is very roleplaying/realistic), making the potion almost useless.

 

Last but not least, the potion's concept is not bad at all, but if you want to increase DEX for the AC then a Potion of Defense is a much better choice (it works even in heavy armor), and if you need thieves skills, Potions of Master Thievery or Potion of Perception are way better, especially because rogue characters almost always already have sky high DEX.

 

 

Conclusions: why should we prefer these three potions to be appealing for a very limited amount of characters, and with random results, when we can make them appealing to ANY character without even altering their concepts*?

 

* Potion of Agility's "intended effects" are radically changed, in fact this is the only concept I'm still unsure of...

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Well, these potions have always been very usefull in BG1 for me, since having -4 AC to a character is very appealing at levels 3-7.

And since I do not use any revised armor components (Since, as I said, I don't like them usually), the potion also grants an AC bonus to "characters with heavy armor"

There's also a lot of characters that do not have a huge stamina, and +10-14 hp is a lot in BG1.

 

While I agree these potions are less usefull in BG2, I find them very attractive in BG1.

(Like the Strength spell, that sets STR to 18/50 is - actually, what I would have loved, is to have spells that set either STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS and CHA to 18 for 1turn/level : these are spells that would be great in BG1 and /or in some parts of BGII)

 

About the STR 18 potion, for example, it lets Viconia wear Plate Armor (something that she cannot do with her base STR) - when I play with her, one of the first things I do is to buy the mace that sets Str to 18, so that she can wear plate armor and tower shields.

 

Also, in BG2, a few hitpoints, a few AC points are much more marginal than in BG1. Kinda like Minor healing potions are kinda useless in BG2, but are great in BG1.

 

Anyway, I don't like altering the base rules of AD&D regarding armor and AC, and that's a part where our opinion differ, so I guess I will say, let's agree to disagree.

I don't think that fighters and thieves should have about the same AC because one is heavy armored and the other is nimble. I understand why people think this way, but in my eyes, thieves are mostly used to backstab / run & hide to backstab again / detect illusions-trap / steal / set traps more than front-line fighters, making their AC irrevelant they're not like ninjas dodging attacks and whatnot.

 

Oh well :) Thanks for the answers anyway

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Potion of Agility

Well, these potions have always been very usefull in BG1 for me, since having -4 AC to a character is very appealing at levels 3-7.
Drink a Potion of Defense then. Very few characters get +4 AC from vanilla's Potion of Agility anyway.

 

If I haven't been clear, I'm sympathetic to your position on this particular potion, but I really don't get what is your point. We're not removing anything (PoD grants the AC bonus you're looking for), we're instead adding alternatives. Is it just a matter of "I want Potion of Agility to do that and not Potion of Defense"?

 

 

Potion of Fortitude

There's also a lot of characters that do not have a huge stamina, and +10-14 hp is a lot in BG1.
And who's preventing it? The solution suggested by Kalindor grants the same result in a much smoother way, and it even preserves characters/classes defining features, which is really cool.

 

 

Potion of Strength

About the STR 18 potion, for example, it lets Viconia wear Plate Armor (something that she cannot do with her base STR) - when I play with her, one of the first things I do is to buy the mace that sets Str to 18, so that she can wear plate armor and tower shields.
On this we have to agree to disagree, because I found it very silly from a roleplaying point of view. I like Viconia to keep her definining features (weak and fragile, but nimble), and I think having such character walk around in full plate wielding a huge tower shield is just lame.

 

As I said in my previous post, what's the point of the starting stats if drinking a bunch of long lasting, not dispellable potions "overrides" them?

 

 

Armor Revisions

And since I do not use any revised armor components (Since, as I said, I don't like them usually), the potion (of Agility) also grants an AC bonus to "characters with heavy armor"
Eh, that's an integral part of IR, and as the readme says I always take it into account when I have to design the rest of the mod.

 

Anyway, I don't like altering the base rules of AD&D regarding armor and AC, and that's a part where our opinion differ, so I guess I will say, let's agree to disagree.
Yep, this is one of those few cases where 3rd edition makes much more sense than 2nd edition. Vanilla's AD&D concept (that a fighter in full plate mail can jump around like a grasshopper, dodging attacks like a ninja and running like Usain Bolt) is really too much unrealistic, and unbalanced (another aspect which is quite crucial within IR).

 

I don't think that fighters and thieves should have about the same AC because one is heavy armored and the other is nimble. I understand why people think this way, but in my eyes, thieves are mostly used to backstab / run & hide to backstab again / detect illusions-trap / steal / set traps more than front-line fighters, making their AC irrevelant they're not like ninjas dodging attacks and whatnot.
I don't know how many times I have explained this and thus I won't waste my time again putting down tons of explanations, sorry (is math such an hated school matter? :thumbsup: ). Heavy armors are still better! A thief will never get as much AC as a fighter in heavy armor (not even close), unless we're taling about a swashbuckler, and in that case I do find it very appropriate he can dodge attacks as much as fighters if not better considering it's swashy most defining feature!

 

Oh well :) Thanks for the answers anyway
As long as the discussion is at least somewhat constructive I'm alway open to it. :D
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On this we have to agree to disagree, because I found it very silly from a roleplaying point of view. I like Viconia to keep her definining features (weak and fragile, but nimble), and I think having such character walk around in full plate wielding a huge tower shield is just lame.

 

While I share your same position with regards to revised potions, I must say that this latest statement doesn't make any sense. What does it mean that you like to "keep Viconias defining features (weak and fragile, but nimble)"?

 

It's not that we're speaking of changing her natural stats here. To keep her weak and fragile should we also prevent her from casting Draw Upon Holy Might then?

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On this we have to agree to disagree, because I found it very silly from a roleplaying point of view. I like Viconia to keep her definining features (weak and fragile, but nimble), and I think having such character walk around in full plate wielding a huge tower shield is just lame.

 

While I share your same position with regards to revised potions, I must say that this latest statement doesn't make any sense. What does it mean that you like to "keep Viconias defining features (weak and fragile, but nimble)"?

 

It's not that we're speaking of changing her natural stats here. To keep her weak and fragile should we also prevent her from casting Draw Upon Holy Might then?

There's a huge difference: such spell lasts 10 rounds, not 100. Does such spell allows Viconia to walk the entire day in full plate and wielding a tower shield?
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On this we have to agree to disagree, because I found it very silly from a roleplaying point of view. I like Viconia to keep her definining features (weak and fragile, but nimble), and I think having such character walk around in full plate wielding a huge tower shield is just lame.

 

While I share your same position with regards to revised potions, I must say that this latest statement doesn't make any sense. What does it mean that you like to "keep Viconias defining features (weak and fragile, but nimble)"?

 

It's not that we're speaking of changing her natural stats here. To keep her weak and fragile should we also prevent her from casting Draw Upon Holy Might then?

There's a huge difference: such spell lasts 10 rounds, not 100. Does such spell allows Viconia to walk the entire day in full plate and wielding a tower shield?

 

I still think you are in danger of forcing your subjective view of how NPCs should be (weak, fragile and nimble for Viconia) onto the players. Instead I think that players should feel free of equipping their party members with what they see fit. There are items and weapons (not to mention the stats books in BG1) that can change drastically the statistics.

 

It's true that 10 rounds are not 100 but does it mean that your tolerance for Viconia's metamorphosis amounts to 10% more or less? That is, it's right for her to be superhumanly strong and resistent as long as it lasts "reasonably short"?

 

Hm...

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