Revised Potions

[yarpen]

I don't know, as of now the only candidates to be replaced were Potions of Strength/Agility/Fortitude/Genius/Insight and officially I have you for it and Aranthys against it.

If there's better alternative for them, it's ok with me. Because currently I don't remember a case when I've used them. And for players who says "they're very useful, I've used them to remember wizard's spells" I say NO, things like that should be useful a bit more often. If there 'd be Stats Checking in dialogues, I'd see them very useful, but now?

 

Eh eh, I do like the possibility to add variety to fighter's gameplay, and to use potions to "fill the gap" between spellcaster's power and fighter's power, but a Potion of Breach is not gonna happen.

But giving them possibility of defend against some of the nastiest spells thanks to potions would be nice. Maybe alternative method of using Holy Water: summoned demons cannot see you; +2 to AC and Saves against Demons and Undead. Something against mr. Lich!

 

Send it to Genoa! But don't remember me I'm Italian, I'm not proud of my country at all these days.

Is it so bad? I've always thought that only polish people hate their country Still I'm proud to be polish.

[Demivrgvs]

Potion of Invisibility

I've simply modified it to make it detectable as an 'illusionary protection', reduced the price from 250gp to 200, and reduced the duration from 12 to 8 hours.

 

 

Potion of Defense

Vanilla's version set AC to 0, while in PnP this potion have various versions which grant from +1 to +5 bonus to AC. I'd go with either +3 or +4. My current beta actually replaces this potion with a Potion of Barkskin, which grants +4 AC but isn't cumulative with the druid's spell. Which solution do you prefer?

 

Duration should be something around 5-10 turns, I'm currently using 5.

 

Price has been reduced a lot, from 700gp to 200 (should it be 300?).

 

 

Potion of Speed (previously named Oil of Speed)

Oils are applied upon a creature/item (which requires quite some time), they are not imbibed, and in PnP they were clever enough to make it a potion and not an oil.

 

It now grants +1 to thac0, AC and saves vs. breath just like SR's Haste, but duration is reduced from 5 turns to 1 turn. Price has been reduced from 500gp to 300.

 

Should it cause fatigue like the spell does?

 

 

Potion of Freedom

I've modified it to make it detectable as 'specific protection', while duration can remain 5 turns imo. This is a rare case where vanilla's price seems too cheap to me. It's 250, but I think this potion is worth at least 300 or 400, am I wrong?

 

 

Potion of Clarity

I've modified it to make it detectable as 'specific protection'. Ironically it's completely different from PnP, because there Potion of Clarity grants True Seeing!

 

Price has been reduced from 700gp to 500, while duration can remain 5 turns imo.

 

Potion of Regeneration

I've slightly modified it with a higher regeneration rate (3hp/round instead of 2) but slower duration (2 turns instead of 3). Price has been reduced from 500gp to 300gp but it may be increased if most of you think the potion should either have a higher regeneration rate or a longer duration.

 

Potion of Master Thievery

In vanilla it grants +40% to Pick Pockets and Open Locks.

 

In PnP it grants various bonuses based on user's level:

Levels 1-3: +20% to all thieving skills, 5d6 temporary hit points gained

Levels 4-6: +16% to all thieving skills, 4d6+1 temporary hit points gained

Levels 7-9: +12% to all thieving skills, 3d6+2 temporary hit points gained

Levels 10-12: +8% to all thieving skills, 2d6+3 temporary hit points gained

Levels 13+: the potion has no effect

 

Personally I'd go with a plain +20% to Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Open Lockets. In any case multiple use of these potions won't stack anymore.

 

 

Potion of Perception

In vanilla it grants +20% to Find/Remove traps, Pick pockets, Open Locks, and Hide in shadows.

 

In PnP it grants various bonuses:

+10% to Open Locks and Remove Traps

+20% to Find Traps

reduced chance of being surprised (?)

+25% to Detect Illusions

 

I'd go with +20% to Find/Remove Traps and Detect Illusions and I think 'immunity to backstab' would be very appropriate. Multiple use of these potions won't stack anymore.

 

 

Oil of Fiery Burning

Completely changed from a lesser Potion of Explotions to something quite unique. User can apply the oil on weapons to deal 1d4 points of fire damage on hit for 5 rounds. Price has been reduced from 500 to 200.

[Salk]

I happen to agree practically with all your changes to the potions. Good work.

 

To try to stick to the original game as much as possible, I believe you should remove your former Potion of Barkskin and reintroduce Potion of Defense with a somewhat longer period of effect (perhaps 8 turns).

 

I am not so fond of the fact that the Potion of Speed is, from what I understand, just like a Haste spell but for a single user and I'd rather see it as something more unique. But since in the current incarnation it does not grant one extra attack per round (right?), I would just make it cause a much shorter fatigue effect (2 rounds instead of 5 of Haste). Again, best would be to change completely this potion though.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Potion of Speed

...

Should it cause fatigue like the spell does?

Temporary fatigue, yes, permanent, no!

 

Potion of Master Thievery

...

Level -12:... 2d6+3 temporary hit points gained

Level 13+: the potion has no effect

Really? The level 13 thief doesn't magically have 2d6+3 hit points more than level 12 thief, so I am questioning your reasons here, as the difference is actually just 2 hit points.

 

Oil of Fiery Burning

Completely changed from a lesser Potion of Explotions to something quite unique. User can apply the oil on weapons to deal 1d4 points of fire damage on hit for 5 rounds. Price has been reduced from 500 to 200.

Hmm, nice.

[Constantine]

Potion of Speed (previously named Oil of Speed)

Oils are applied upon a creature/item (which requires quite some time), they are not imbibed, and in PnP they were clever enough to make it a potion and not an oil.

 

It now grants +1 to thac0, AC and saves vs. breath just like SR's Haste, but duration is reduced from 5 turns to 1 turn. Price has been reduced from 500gp to 300.

 

Hey, where is my +1 APR?! This minor boost you've proposed (+1 to thac0, AC and saves vs. breath) don't worth my hard-earned 300gp. Congratulations, you've made the potion of speed absolutely useless

 

Should it cause fatigue like the spell does?

Absolutely not!

[Demivrgvs]

Potion of Defense

To try to stick to the original game as much as possible, I believe you should remove your former Potion of Barkskin and reintroduce Potion of Defense with a somewhat longer period of effect (perhaps 8 turns).

You also mean to keep it as 'set AC to 0' instead of PnP incremental bonus? The barkskin thing was Ardanis idea and I liked it because it adds a small cosmetic feature and helps avoiding too many AC bonuses from stacking.

 

 

Potion of Speed

I am not so fond of the fact that the Potion of Speed is, from what I understand, just like a Haste spell but for a single user and I'd rather see it as something more unique. But since in the current incarnation it does not grant one extra attack per round (right?), I would just make it cause a much shorter fatigue effect (2 rounds instead of 5 of Haste). Again, best would be to change completely this potion though.

Hey, where is my +1 APR?! This minor boost you've proposed (+1 to thac0, AC and saves vs. breath) don't worth my hard-earned 300gp. Congratulations, you've made the potion of speed absolutely useless

Men I thought it was obvious the +1 apr was still there (hence the short duration), I simply added the missing 3rd edition bonuses (AC, save, hit) on top of it. I'll make it more clear then.

 

Should it cause fatigue like the spell does?

Temporary fatigue, yes, permanent, no!

Absolutely not!

I'll wait for more feedback, anyway I'm obviously not talking about a permanent fatigue effect, I removed that from SR's Haste too.

 

 

Potion of Master Thievery

...

Level -12:... 2d6+3 temporary hit points gained

Level 13+: the potion has no effect

Really? The level 13 thief doesn't magically have 2d6+3 hit points more than level 12 thief, so I am questioning your reasons here, as the difference is actually just 2 hit points.

You're asking the wrong person because I didn't invented this table (and I don't like it), it's how it works in PnP!

[Salk]

Potion of Defense

To try to stick to the original game as much as possible, I believe you should remove your former Potion of Barkskin and reintroduce Potion of Defense with a somewhat longer period of effect (perhaps 8 turns).

You also mean to keep it as 'set AC to 0' instead of PnP incremental bonus? The barkskin thing was Ardanis idea and I liked it because it adds a small cosmetic feature and helps avoiding too many AC bonuses from stacking.

 

No, actually I like it better as a bonus.

 

I meant to say that I'd rather keep the original name (keeping also the cosmetic effect). That's all.

 

I am still unconvinced by the Potion of Speed. Making a potion that it's just a duplication of an existing spell is always rather unimaginative if not altogether boring. And unfortunately too many potions are like that (by the way, good thinking with Oil of Fiery Burning). But being this its status, I would certainly recommend to keep the temporary fatigue effect.

[yarpen]

Potion of Speed

Most of folks gonna kill me because of my opinion, but I think it should have duration something like a 5-8 rounds, not 1 turn. This is one of these "boosts" that shouldn't last too long.

 

Potion of Defense

Maybe something like +4 to AC, +2 to saving throws?

 

Potion of Clarity

PnP effect is quite interesting IMO, it allows non-wizard/non-cleric characters to deal with illusions quite well. I'd vote for 1 Turn of True Seeing for this one.

 

Oil of Fiery Burning

Effect doesn't looks as powerfull, so maybe it should last full turn instead of 5 rounds only? And what do you think about increasing fire damage to 1d6?

[Demivrgvs]

Potion of Defense

To try to stick to the original game as much as possible, I believe you should remove your former Potion of Barkskin and reintroduce Potion of Defense with a somewhat longer period of effect (perhaps 8 turns).

You also mean to keep it as 'set AC to 0' instead of PnP incremental bonus? The barkskin thing was Ardanis idea and I liked it because it adds a small cosmetic feature and helps avoiding too many AC bonuses from stacking.

I meant to say that I'd rather keep the original name (keeping also the cosmetic effect). That's all.

Sorry but I'm not understanding, keeping the original name is fine (it may avoid incredibly small "name incongruences" with RR's Alchemy HLA), but there was no original cosmetic effect.

 

Maybe something like +4 to AC, +2 to saving throws?

AC alone is already enough imo, not to mention that it would pratically be a Potion of Invulnerability, and that there are other potions to deal with saves like Potion of Magic Shielding.

 

I need to know one thing: should this potion stack with everything else than itself? I fear a character under the effects of this potion + Blur + II + Barkskin can become almost untouchable...though you may tell me that it should be ok considering a single 4th lvl spell like Stoneskin does almost the same, and that a simple divination can reduce the AC bonus by half.

 

 

Potion of Speed

I am still unconvinced by the Potion of Speed. Making a potion that it's just a duplication of an existing spell is always rather unimaginative if not altogether boring. And unfortunately too many potions are like that (by the way, good thinking with Oil of Fiery Burning). But being this its status, I would certainly recommend to keep the temporary fatigue effect.

Well, that's because spells already cover almost anything you can do imo. When we can do something more unique I'm the first to vote for it, but we also have restrictions (e.g. the AI wants this potion to work like Haste), and in this particular case I don't know what else could do a Potion of Speed.

 

Most of folks gonna kill me because of my opinion, but I think it should have duration something like a 5-8 rounds, not 1 turn. This is one of these "boosts" that shouldn't last too long.

I've already reduced the duration from 50 rounds to 10, less than that and I'm pretty sure most players will kill both of us yes.

 

 

Potion of Clarity

PnP effect is quite interesting IMO, it allows non-wizard/non-cleric characters to deal with illusions quite well. I'd vote for 1 Turn of True Seeing for this one.

Actually I wasn't really suggesting it (though the conpet is not so bad per se imo), at least not for this potion because SCS AI uses it as a sort of Chaotic Commands. Anyway, should I assume you never have a mage, a cleric, or a thief in you party?! Because any of those can deal with illusions pretty well.

 

 

Oil of Fiery Burning

Effect doesn't looks as powerfull, so maybe it should last full turn instead of 5 rounds only? And what do you think about increasing fire damage to 1d6?

Mmm, I was unsure myself, perhaps it can last 1 turn. Regarding the damage I thought 1d6 would be devastating if used by archers, revised bows are much less "problematic".

 

I think I can accept even 1d6 for 10 rounds, but then I'd make it cost a little more (e.g. 250-300gp).

[yarpen]

Actually I wasn't really suggesting it (though the conpet is not so bad per se imo), at least not for this potion because SCS AI uses it as a sort of Chaotic Commands. Anyway, should I assume you never have a mage, a cleric, or a thief in you party?! Because any of those can deal with illusions pretty well.

Sad Panda I have to use cleric's for that, my thieves are usually backstabing wizards... but I always wanted to play as alone warrior.

[Ardanis]

Hi everybody

 

Have anyone ever thought that there's smth very wrong with potions - that they're way too common? I mean, when we can get about 15 ones of Fire Giant Strength and Invulnerability in the Hell location it's no fun at all. Doesn't matter how much expensive, really, when we find more than we can use. I usually end up with two poiton bags full very soon and know not where to put the rest.

So, and this mainly is aimed to somewhat fix poor Giant Strength bottles, shouldn't there be a component that removes a good deal of drinks, especially mighty ones, from dungeons and stores? Coding it all, I can do myself.

 

Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius

As I've mentioned here, I vote for keeping them as +2 stat, +2 save< smth else.

 

Potion of Regeneration

As in the link above, I say either shortlasting but very powerful regen, or 10-15 turns but minor. Otherwise it's not worthy of buying.

[Demivrgvs]

Potion availability

Have anyone ever thought that there's smth very wrong with potions - that they're way too common? I mean, when we can get about 15 ones of Fire Giant Strength and Invulnerability in the Hell location it's no fun at all. Doesn't matter how much expensive, really, when we find more than we can use. I usually end up with two poiton bags full very soon and know not where to put the rest.

So, and this mainly is aimed to somewhat fix poor Giant Strength bottles, shouldn't there be a component that removes a good deal of drinks, especially mighty ones, from dungeons and stores? Coding it all, I can do myself.

I don't know myself, I never ended up with many potions but mainly because I never picked them up till my current test run. SCS has a component which already handles potions carried by characters, but if most of you think there are too many potions in stores or areas I don't mind including Ardanis suggestions (if he wish to code it and borrow it to us).

 

 

Potion of Regeneration

As in the link above, I say either shortlasting but very powerful regen, or 10-15 turns but minor. Otherwise it's not worthy of buying.

Ok then, we have two solutions which more or less look like:

a) 1hp/sec for 1 turn (350-400gp)

b) 1hp/round for 10 turns (500gp)

I'd go for a), but let's see what others think of it.

 

 

Potion of Magic Protection

Wow, BG made quite a mess with PnP lore of Potions of Magic Protection/Shielding/Blocking (they switched their names/effects around quite a lot). Anyway, let's get to the point...

 

This potion in PnP is called Potion of Magic Resistance. Such potion has 5 doses, each granting a +10% non-cumulative bonus to magic resistance for 4d4 rounds (1 turn on average). In vanilla it granted +50% bonus for 10 turns, though being easily dispellable made it pretty weak agains non-vanilla AI (e.g. SCS's one).

 

Using vanilla's potion and making it undispellable would be outstandingly overpowered, thus we have two solutions:

a) long lasting small bonus (e.g. +10% for 5 turns)

b) short lasting high bonus (e.g. +40% for 1 turn)

 

 

Potion of Magic Shielding

In PnP it doesn't grant 50% resistance to elemental and magic damage (successfully saving against damage-dealing spells already do that) and I'm not too much against it, but I'll let you decide.

 

This incredibly powerful potion shouldn't have a duration higher than 1 turn imo.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

Well well, in PnP it works as a Globe of Invulnerability, but developers combined that with a Potion of Dispelling/Anti-magic, and ended up screwing it with an incorrect description (it says the effect protects only against 1st to 5th lvl spells, but it works with any lvl of spell up to 9th). The silliest thing imo is that such a powerful anti-magic effect...was dispellable.

 

Now, we can't remove the dispelling effect, nor make it perfectly work as intended (blocking buffing spells cast by the user) because aVENGER said his AI (and perhaps David's one too) uses/needs both things.

 

What I can do is making effect and description match each other as much as possible, making it not dispellable, but finally removable via spell removals (e.g. Spellstrike). Duration surely can't be higher than vanilla's 5 rounds.

 

If anyone has a suggestion to make the concept less flawed let me know. For example aVENGER suggested to make it a "simple" Potion of Dispelling, with no anti-magic effects. That would work without incongruencies, but I think most of us wouldn't like it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Have anyone ever thought that there's something very wrong with potions - that they're way too common? I mean, when we can get about 15 ones of Fire Giant Strength and Invulnerability in the Hell location it's no fun at all. Doesn't matter how much expensive, really, when we find more than we can use. I usually end up with two poiton bags full very soon and know not where to put the rest.

Well, if you use the Unique Containers mod, you shouldn't be running out of space for the potion... as you'll be able to store 64000+ potions to the two bags.

So what mods are you using? No, don't answer.

 

Haste effects.

Shouldn't they actually make your movement faster, so they give you additional attack rate, but reduce your accuracy or force you'll be doing the hits ...

Potion of Speed

...It now grants +1 to thac0...

It should be (-)2 to Thac0 penalty.

 

Potion of Regeneration

Ok then, we have two solutions which more or less look like:

a) 1hp/sec for 1 turn (350-400gp)

b) 1hp/round for 10 turns (500gp)

I'd go for a too.

[Salk]

Potion of Defense

To try to stick to the original game as much as possible, I believe you should remove your former Potion of Barkskin and reintroduce Potion of Defense with a somewhat longer period of effect (perhaps 8 turns).

You also mean to keep it as 'set AC to 0' instead of PnP incremental bonus? The barkskin thing was Ardanis idea and I liked it because it adds a small cosmetic feature and helps avoiding too many AC bonuses from stacking.

I meant to say that I'd rather keep the original name (keeping also the cosmetic effect). That's all.

Sorry but I'm not understanding, keeping the original name is fine (it may avoid incredibly small "name incongruences" with RR's Alchemy HLA), but there was no original cosmetic effect.

 

I meant: the original name plus the added cosmetic effect (I never wrote that the cosmetic effect was original!)

[Salk]

Haste effects.

Shouldn't they actually make your movement faster, so they give you additional attack rate, but reduce your accuracy or force you'll be doing the hits ...

Potion of Speed

...It now grants +1 to thac0...

It should be (-)2 to Thac0 penalty.

 

I am symphatetic with Jarno's suggestion here. A hasted character should make difficult for enemies to be hit but also have a worsened aim himself.