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Revised Potions


Demivrgvs

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About speed potion... I don't think that thaco penalty is appropriate. In 99% of fights in BG AC vs. thaco doesn't mean "missing the enemy" because you know, only real dumb would be capable of missing someone who's not moving. Really. AC/ThaC0 is about parrying, evasion, blocking and armor. So... in this way when your character is faster, he can response faster, he can find weak spot faster, he can evade parry/block easier so... he has better chance for proper hit.

 

About quantity of potions... potions aren't artifacts! They should be quite common. Maybe in Athkatla, it'd be something special when only people with "concesion" would be capable of selling potions and they'd have very high prices (temples as example) BUT there are people like Roger in Severs or Miss Cragmoon who are selling illegal ones. Still this solution will break the immersion of SCS2 where people like Corhvale and Bregg have a lot of potions. SCS2 is making potions as fighter's best friend so don't touch it or someone will use something very heavy to make you re-think your decision ;]

 

Potion of Magic Protection

I think that setting Magic Resistance on 50% for 1 Turn would be most appropriate. +40% bonus can give you easily quite huge values. And what do you think about (it can be optional component) making these few anti-magic potions usable for Wizard Slayers (even not these KR's [damn, Demi, go back to work on KR, beg you!]).

 

Potion of Magic Shielding

I think it should have "saves always successful" effect only. And you should reconsider making its duration shorter (again 5 maybe 8 rounds).

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I don't see much problem here. Starts with Dispel Magic (you've got your share mr. aVenger) and then you've got effect similiar to Globe of Invulnerability.

 

Potion of Dispel? Wouldn't be so bad, but existence of Potion of Magic Blocking shouldn't be endangered because of that.

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About speed potion... I don't think that thaco penalty is appropriate. In 99% of fights in BG AC vs. thaco doesn't mean "missing the enemy" because you know, only real dumb would be capable of missing someone who's not moving. Really. AC/ThaC0 is about parrying, evasion, blocking and armor. So... in this way when your character is faster, he can response faster, he can find weak spot faster, he can evade parry/block easier so... he has better chance for proper hit.

 

I disagree.

 

The Haste spell is already very powerful and we should not make the mistake to extend the enhanced speed to include all mental processes. In fact, casting time is not hastened (and fairly so).

 

The franctic physical activity should come with a drawback. After the effect, we have fatigue but, especially in the case of the spell Haste, I don't think it is enough. A penalty to THAC0 seems appropriate in that an hastened character has a worse aim just because he is not attacking under natural condition but rather an altered capacity. In short: we should not assume that being hastened only comes with benefits.

 

The present revision of Haste (from SR) grants a +1 to Thac0 and AC while I would find much more appropriate a +4 to AC and a -2 to Thac0.

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Damn Firefox...half an hour of reply wasted by a f*****k crash. :thumbsup: I have to go for a much shorter reply because I really don't have the patience to write everything again.

 

About quantity of potions...

potions aren't artifacts! They should be quite common. Maybe in Athkatla, it'd be something special when only people with "concesion" would be capable of selling potions and they'd have very high prices (temples as example) BUT there are people like Roger in Severs or Miss Cragmoon who are selling illegal ones. Still this solution will break the immersion of SCS2 where people like Corhvale and Bregg have a lot of potions. SCS2 is making potions as fighter's best friend so don't touch it or someone will use something very heavy to make you re-think your decision ;]
I was proposing to Ardanis a sort of new component here, Revised Stores, which together with the item re-allocation part of IR's main component would make the whole system of "items availability" revised. I'll open a topic about it as soon as I have my patience back.

 

 

About speed potion...

I don't think that thaco penalty is appropriate. In 99% of fights in BG AC vs. thaco doesn't mean "missing the enemy" because you know, only real dumb would be capable of missing someone who's not moving. Really. AC/ThaC0 is about parrying, evasion, blocking and armor. So... in this way when your character is faster, he can response faster, he can find weak spot faster, he can evade parry/block easier so... he has better chance for proper hit.
I agree with yarpen.

 

Long story short, it's all a matter of Slow vs. Haste. The former causes penalty to AC and thac0 (I think we all agree on this), thus the latter grants the opposite.

 

What Jarno and Salk say imo is appropriate for something like KR's Whirling Frenzy, but in this case the character doesn't make any effort to fight more quickly.

 

 

Potion of Magic Protection

I think that setting Magic Resistance on 50% for 1 Turn would be most appropriate. +40% bonus can give you easily quite huge values. And what do you think about (it can be optional component) making these few anti-magic potions usable for Wizard Slayers (even not these KR's [damn, Demi, go back to work on KR, beg you!]).
The 'set' parameter is broken, and can be easily exploited to work as an 'incremental bonus'. For example if you have an item with +10% mr and then use the potion you'll get 50%, but re-equipping the item makes it stack for a total of 60%.

 

Thus it's as always a matter of balancing effectiveness and duration:

a) +40% for 1 turn

b) +20% for 3-5 turns

c) +10% for 5-10 turns (this is the closest to PnP)

 

Multiple uses of the potion won't stack.

 

For a) and b) it may be best if we make it not stack with cleric's Magic Resistance spell, but I'll let you decide.

 

 

Potion of Magic Shielding

I think it should have "saves always successful" effect only. And you should reconsider making its duration shorter (again 5 maybe 8 rounds).
If there's consensus I'm fine with any solution here. Else I'll keep vanilla's potion but reduce the duration from 3 to 1 turn.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I don't see much problem here. Starts with Dispel Magic (you've got your share mr. aVenger) and then you've got effect similiar to Globe of Invulnerability.
I'll try to write a decent description then.
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Well, if you use the Unique Containers mod, you shouldn't be running out of space for the potion... as you'll be able to store 64000+ potions to the two bags.
Tell, my tailed friend, do you always reply to non-existent questions? I've never said the lack free space was my concern ;D

 

I was proposing to Ardanis a sort of new component
If you mean you've sent a message then it hadn't reached me.

 

Speed potion

I do believe that the haste effect is basically a slowmotion, when a charater has more time to react. It's not due to some physical efforts.

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I've modded a little this afternoon and I've tried to add a little flavor to descriptions too when possible (mainly thanks to NWN which had a little lore about some potions).

 

Potion of Absorption

"There are terrifying creatures in the wilderness which would be a match for even the fiercest Rashemi berserker, so the Witches of Rashemen created these magical flasks to bolster their warriors' resistance. This potion will cushion the user against physical attacks made against him or her, so that only the strongest get through. The imbiber's physical resistance to damage is incresed by 10% for the duration of the effect, which is x turns, but multiple uses of this potion are not cumulative."

 

Being undispellable and lasting quite some time this potion should be pretty useful (especially fo barbarians) even if the bonus doesn't seem high. How much should it last to be appealing? I'd go with 5-10 turns but I'd like to know your opinions.

 

 

Potion of Magic Protection

After thinking about it a lot I'd vote to make it as per PnP, thus +10% magic resistance for 5-10 turns.

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I've tried to make a new description which actually tries to match what the potion does: "This rare and expensive concoction is an incredibly potent anti-magic elixir. Drinking the potion has two main effects. First it dispels any magical effect affecting the drinker, whether beneficial in origin or not, second it makes the imbiber immune to any magical effect cast from external sources on him. The effect will only last for 5 rounds, however, so careful timing is necessary."

 

With something like that I may also nerf it to work as per vanilla's description (immunity from 1st to 5th lvl spells), but conceptually I think it makes more sense for it to be a complete anti-magic elixir.

 

This is clearly the most powerful potion in-game (perhaps not even the improvements I'm going to make for Potion of Power can match it), and deserves to cost a fortune. In vanilla the base price was 1500, but considering IR doesn't have the 50% discount from high reputation, I'd propose 1000.

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Potion of Absorption

10%? You've got 5% from damn Adventurer's Robe, so please, maybe 20%? You know, potions should be rather a powerfull boost, not a diet suplement of powerhouse barbarian. Mhmm, also this description... is quite strange. You know, I cannot properly write a sentence in english but still, it's something wrong with overall construction. I hope that other folks will say what or tell me that I'm idiot-polar-bear and I should go back to my bushes.

 

Potion of Magic Protection

Again effect doesn't make it worth of buying. 30% for 1 turn?

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

1-5 spells would be just fine, because now it's endangering Scroll of Protection vs. Magic. It's shorter, it's cheaper. But more items which are an absolute protection against any magic - I think it's a wrong way. Let's better find a way to remove stoneskin-pfmw combo, okay? ;D

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Potion of Absorption

10%? You've got 5% from damn Adventurer's Robe, so please, maybe 20%? You know, potions should be rather a powerfull boost, not a diet suplement of powerhouse barbarian.
Does each and every potion needs to be an uber powerful boost? Anyway I proposed 20% myself at first but look here for a bit of discussion on this matter between me and Ardanis. It started few posts before that, but from there we started to discuss the whole 100%+ resistance issue.

 

Mhmm, also this description... is quite strange. You know, I cannot properly write a sentence in english but still, it's something wrong with overall construction. I hope that other folks will say what or tell me that I'm idiot-polar-bear and I should go back to my bushes.
Sad panda. :D I don't know, I accept corrections. :D

 

 

Potion of Magic Protection

Again effect doesn't make it worth of buying. 30% for 1 turn?
Well, that's PnP. :D Not that I can really consider worthless an undispellable +10% magic resistance (especially if it lasts 5-10 turns instead of 1) but again, I suggested myself a higher value for a short time, but then it comes the stacking issue. Anyway, if most of you prefer a higher value with a shorter duration it's doable.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

1-5 spells would be just fine, because now it's endangering Scroll of Protection vs. Magic. It's shorter, it's cheaper. But more items which are an absolute protection against any magic - I think it's a wrong way. Let's better find a way to remove stoneskin-pfmw combo, okay? ;D
I'm not adding anything, it already worked that way, I've only fixed the description to match the effects. The potion also uses Protection from Magic's portrait icon, which seems to suggest it was intended to work like that. Anyway see below...

 

 

Green Scrolls

But thanks to you I just had an epiphany! What the hell does the green scrolls mean?! I forgot about them, but there's Protection from Fire/Cold/Electricity and even the Acid one (I don't know why the respective potion is missing)! Those scrolls make the three Potions of Fire/Cold/Electricity Resistance redundant, and the Scroll of Protection from Magic does the very same thing of Potion of Magic Blocking! ;)Why on earth these scrolls are usable by any class? What makes them different from potions then?! :thumbsup:

 

I have to re-think "everything" then, because the four scrolls of protection are better suited to get 100% resistance imo, and I don't like too much to have the three potions do exactly the same. The same is valid for Potion of Protection from Magic and Potion of Magic Blocking.

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About speed potion...

Long story short, it's all a matter of Slow vs. Haste. The former causes penalty to AC and thac0 (I think we all agree on this), thus the latter grants the opposite.

 

What Jarno and Salk say imo is appropriate for something like KR's Whirling Frenzy, but in this case the character doesn't make any effort to fight more quickly.

Eeh, where was it said that the Oil or "Potion of Speed" is Potion of Haste? You could make a Potion of Haste that offers the effects of Improved Haste that has no such penalty.

 

Now then, if this might interlines with your though:

Speed potion

I do believe that the haste effect is basically a slowmotion, when a charater has more time to react. It's not due to some physical efforts.

I'll answer it them singly by saying the Potion of Speed is not magical in nature, and thus cannot cast Haste nor give frequent mini Time Stop's powers, nor give the user the trained perception in unnatural state. Should you also know, you are actually blind in the state of Time Stop, and the only thing you can rely on is memory.

 

About speed potion... I don't think that thaco penalty is appropriate. In 99% of fights in BG AC vs. thaco doesn't mean "missing the enemy" because you know, only real dumb would be capable of missing someone who's not moving. Really. AC/ThaC0 is about parrying, evasion, blocking and armor. So... in this way when your character is faster, he can response faster, he can find weak spot faster, he can evade parry/block easier so... he has better chance for proper hit.
Yes, 5 * 9/20 is better than 4 * 11/20... and with less hit's per turn, it's even more... and that's without the critical hits.

 

Well, if you use the Unique Containers mod, you shouldn't be running out of space for the potion... as you'll be able to store 64000+ potions to the two bags.
Tell, my tailed friend, do you always reply to non-existent questions? I've never said the lack free space was my concern ;D
What was this then:
I usually end up with two potion bags full very soon and know not where to put the rest.
Yes, I do have tendency of offering solutions to existing problems. :licks it's tail:
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Well, there's a lot of "unfinished business" regarding things on my last post...but let's put everything on the table to see if there are other potions which give us "problems".

 

 

Potion of Explosions

I don't think there's much to say here. Making it bypass magic resistance should make it interesting even without raising its damage output (which currently is 6d6). Am I wrong?

 

I'd change its base price from 450gp to 300.

 

 

Potion of Firebreath

Isn't 6d10 points of damage too much? :D Depending on its damage output price should be between 200 and 300gp.

 

 

Potion of Heroism

Am I the only one who never found this potion worth of its 800gp base cost?

 

In PnP there are two versions of it:

 

1) AD&D one (which is the one they tried but failed to implement) granted "temporary" levels based on user's level. Fighter's of 1st-3rd lvl got 3 levels, fighter's of 4th-6th lvl got 2 levels, those of 7th-9th lvl got 1 level, and those of 10th+ lvl got nothing. Getting a lvl granted 1d10hp, +1 bonus to hit, saves appropriate to such level, and combat abilities appropriate to such level (I suppose +1/2 apr at 7th lvl, and perhaps weapon proficiencies).

 

2) 3rd edition version instead grants +2 bonus to attack rolls, +2 to saves, and +2 to skill checks (and is usable by any class).

 

If you ask me 1) is not really doable, and the current solution doesn't make much sense because it doesnt do what it claims (gained hit points are very few at low levels and may become "too much" in ToB).

 

Long story short: what about something like +1 to hit/damage rolls, +1 to saves and +10 hit points. If we really like the 10% thing we may keep it (it shouldn't be much of a problem). I'll not mention the "level up" part in the description because it's "misleading" imo.

 

 

Potion of Power

Same as above, but being usable by any class it will keep the +20% bonus to thieving skills, and in case the respective exe patching component is installed a +2 bonus to caster level for spellcasting classes.

 

 

Potion of Mirrored Eyes

Its current description is slightly misleading, because it's not clear imo that it protects against all attacks which use the "gaze" projectile. It's not a Potion of Protection from Petrification, and there's a "green scroll" for that.

 

If we all agree on that I'd like to make sure it does that (at least I'd try), because not all gaze attacks use the correct projectile. Demon's death gaze (spin996) uses it, and even IR's Skull of Death one does, but umber hulk's confusing gaze (spin839) surely doesn't, and I'll have to check vampire's dominating gaze, as well as find out how basililisk's petrification worked within BG1 (if anyone already know these things he's welcome :D ).

 

 

Potion of Stone Form

We have two alternatives, being creative (polymorph into a lesser stone golem ;) ) or simply use Stoneskin.

 

 

Potion of Infravision

Here we have to be creative imo, improving it into a Potion of 'add_name' (e.g. Keen Sight). I know what yarpen will suggest, Potion of True Seeing! :thumbsup: hi hi

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Potion of Explosions

I don't think there's much to say here. Making it bypass magic resistance should make it interesting even without raising its damage output (which currently is 6d6). Am I wrong?

 

No, I do think you are right.

 

 

 

Potion of Firebreath

Isn't 6d10 points of damage too much? :thumbsup: Depending on its damage output price should be between 200 and 300gp.

 

What about 4d10?

 

 

Potion of Heroism

 

I like better the AD&D version.

 

 

Potion of Power

 

Same.

 

 

Potion of Mirrored Eyes

 

Yes, make sure that it does protect against all gaze attacks.

 

 

Potion of Stone Form

 

Being creative is always good but I do think we should keep the Stoneskin effect in this case.

 

 

Potion of Infravision

 

What about a potion that automatically detects secret doors and traps?

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Revised Stores

I was proposing to Ardanis a sort of new component
If you mean you've sent a message then it hadn't reached me.
Sorry I haven't noticed your post. No I meant I was suggesting you how to implement your suggested component with a little more things (and work :thumbsup: ) but it was a long post and I hadn't the time to write it again to you. I'll post a topic about it.

 

 

Potion of Heroism

I like better the AD&D version.
You mean the one which grants temporary lvl ups based on user's level? The one I said it's a pain to implement? ;) Jokes aside, I'm not sure how to implement all its PnP features, but my main concern is that it becomes completely useless in SoA.

 

 

Potion of Power

Same.
Well, I haven't spoken of its AD&D version. :D Which is slightly different because it grants fixed bonuses based on user's class:

- mages get +2 to caster lvl

- clerics get +1 to hit, +3 to dmg, +1 to caster lvl

- rogues get +1 to hit, +2 to dmg, +20% thieving skills

- warriors get +2 to hit, +5 dmg, +20 hit points

 

If we want to implement it exctly as per PnP it should be doable (with much much more work than my suggested solution), but I fear the +5 dmg (which stacks with every other existing bonus), and also few issues (e.g. mages won't get anything without the exe pacth; how should we handle multi-class characters?).

 

 

Potion of Stone Form

Being creative is always good but I do think we should keep the Stoneskin effect in this case.
In this case I think I prefer too a simple stoneskin effect (easier to handle, balance, detect, remove), but I'd really like to have some feedback from players before changing so much a potion (it was a sort of Potion of Defense with dex penalties and save bonuses).

 

P.S Ardanis suggested to combine the two things but my main concern is the 'stacking' issue. Stoneskins for example don't stack, whereas having too many potions/items/spells grant AC/save bonuses may cause serious balance issues imo.

 

 

Potion of Infravision

What about a potion that automatically detects secret doors and traps?
AD&D Encyclopedia Magica has two similar potions that may appeal you then (and yarpen too imo, though not much as a Potion of True Sight).

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes: grants infravision, improved chance to detect secret doors/traps, and automatically detects creatures hiding in the shadows. The effects last 5 turns. I think it is supposed to work only against non-magical invisibility, but I don't think such restriction is implementable (and it would be almost pointless because RR and SCS thieves use potions instead of hiding in the shadows).

 

Potion of Sight: as per wizard's Detect Invisibiility, for 1 turn (which actually makes it more powerful than the spell, even with SR's improvements).

 

What about combining the two potions? If we want to keep the long duration we may decide to make the detect secret doors/traps/invisibility based on a % (if I'm not under a feeblemind spell it's doable).

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Well, I really don't wish to burdern yourself further with overcomplicated implementations for potions so let's see:

 

Poition of Heroism

 

Well, yes sorry. I did think that the AD&D P&P version was by far the most interesting solution but, as I said, I really would like to keep things simpler for you after all the job you have done and that you are going to face (KR, Familiars, ecc.). So what about redefine the concept of "Heroism"? We could start with adding a no fear protection (heros should be fearless) and then raise HPs (restore max. HPs + 10%) and lower THAC0 value (10% bonus just like it is supposed to work in vanilla). At the end of the duration, the original HP value (before drinking the potion) will be restored. So in short, really similar to the vanilla Potion of Heroism.

 

Potion of Power

 

I do like a lot the fact that different classes get different bonuses. It's not secret I'd take the AD&D solution any time so why not try and make it like that? I understand that there are a couple of isses with damage stacking and mages not getting anything out of it without the .exe patch but I think they can be worked around somehow.

 

Potion of Sharp Eye

 

I like this very much and I would immediately change the Potion of Infravision with this new one instead. My proposed changes: automatic detection of traps and secret doors and protection from backstabbing instead of detection of invisibility (so that we eliminate the inconsistency of making it work also against magical invisibility).

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Potion of Heroism

So what about redefine the concept of "Heroism"? We could start with adding a no fear protection (heros should be fearless) and then raise HPs (restore max. HPs + 10%) and lower THAC0 value (10% bonus just like it is supposed to work in vanilla). At the end of the duration, the original HP value (before drinking the potion) will be restored. So in short, really similar to the vanilla Potion of Heroism.
That's exactly vanilla's potion + 'immunity to fear'. :thumbsup: I do thought about immunity to fear because the name seems to suggest it, and moving it from Potion of Clarity would make sense too (Chaotic Commands doesn't protect from fear), but then I just said to myself "don't change too many concepts when the original ones seem fine".

 

That's why I suggested to only modify the original item to make it work at any level as intended (e.g. 10% bonus to thac0 doesn't work anymore when user's base thac0 reaches 0, and it even becomes a penalty if the warrior has thac0 lower than 0!), and then implement its PnP version without "level cap" (SCSII uses this potion for warriors with more than 9HD if I'm not wrong).

 

Anyway I'll take everything said in this topic into account, such as player's preferences, and alternative solutions.

 

 

Potion of Power

I do like a lot the fact that different classes get different bonuses. It's not secret I'd take the AD&D solution any time so why not try and make it like that? I understand that there are a couple of isses with damage stacking and mages not getting anything out of it without the .exe patch but I think they can be worked around somehow.
The worst issue imo are multi-dual classes and PnP doesn't suggest what to do with them. We may opt to have them get half the bonuses from each class...it should be fine, though it also means I have to create tons of EFF files for all the various classes and combinations.

 

If we all agree on having the potion do different things based on user's class I'll work on it. :D But don't ask for effects based on kits! :D

 

If the Potion of Power does nothing for my Mages, I simply won't have my Mages drink it. The bonus tends to become moot after level 20, anyway. (AFAIK)
You have a point. Regarding caster level effectiveness beyond 20th lvl you're almost right, it indeed loses much of its appeal, but it still have two noticeable effects: makes cast spell more difficult to dispel, and helps to more easily dispel opponent's spells.

 

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes (replaces Potion of Infravision)

I like this very much and I would immediately change the Potion of Infravision with this new one instead. My proposed changes: automatic detection of traps and secret doors and protection from backstabbing instead of detection of invisibility (so that we eliminate the inconsistency of making it work also against magical invisibility).
Mmm, actually I think I'd consider more "inconsistent" a 'immunity to backstab' than the ability to see creatures invisible via spell, because one thing is being able to see hidden creatures in front of you, another is to have an eye in the back of your head. :p Unfortunately BG engine doesn't handle Detect Invisibility as it should (granting such feature only to the affected creature) but it effectively dispel the invisibility. :D Thus both solutions are a little inconsistent, but I'd vote for 'see invisibility' because 'immunity to backstab' fits Potion of Perception way better imo, and because a 'see invisibility' with a % chance may be somewhat more "consistent" (the user isn't looking everywhere at the same time with more eyes than a beholder, and would still need some effort to detect a completely invisible opponent).

 

There's actually one thing I've tried...but I do fear serious unbalancing consequences. 'Invisible detection by script' opcode would allow the imbiber to normally cast spells on creatures under Improve Invisibility. ;)

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Demi,

 

I understand your concerns and I tend to agree with them. About the Potion of Heroism, having it back to vanilla state + protection from fear (and removing it from Potion of Clarity) does seem like the best solution to me. Same thing about the Potion of Power for which I would not care at all to have different effects for different kits but rather for different classes. In case of multiclasses or dual classes, I would just have opt for choosing to affect the class with the highest level of experience (making you avoid the ton of .eff files). It's also okay what you said about the Potion of Sharp Eyes.

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