Flail of Ages +5

[Guest!]

I'm not sure whether this should go here or in the Fixpack section, but anyway. The FoA+5 has that nasty Free Action effect which overrides any kind of haste, making the Boots of Speed (among other things) useless. Especially in the late game, when everyone is running at warp speed, having a character trudge on behind the rest of the party is annoying and pretty much prevents the player from consistently using the FoA (meaning it actually gets weakened by the +5 upgrade rather than improved). Could you include a component that modifies Free Action so that it does not actually prevent creatures from benefitting from other effects? The idea/rationale would be that one beneficial effect shouldn't cancel another.

[DavidW]

I'm not sure whether this should go here or in the Fixpack section, but anyway. The FoA+5 has that nasty Free Action effect which overrides any kind of haste, making the Boots of Speed (among other things) useless. Especially in the late game, when everyone is running at warp speed, having a character trudge on behind the rest of the party is annoying and pretty much prevents the player from consistently using the FoA (meaning it actually gets weakened by the +5 upgrade rather than improved). Could you include a component that modifies Free Action so that it does not actually prevent creatures from benefitting from other effects? The idea/rationale would be that one beneficial effect shouldn't cancel another.

 

I'm not sure I'm convinced by the idea/rationale. Why shouldn't one beneficial effect cancel another?

[Guest!]

Because then it wouldn't be beneficial anymore. In fact, as it is, the Free Action is a downgrade.

[Guest Guest_Loz_*]

Actually unmodded this is not a problem, it allows move speed increase from the boots. It is the fixpack that changes the FoA+5 (among other items) to behave this way. One example of a less than practical fix most likely made by people no longer actively playing the game.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm not sure whether this should go here or in the Fixpack section, but anyway. The FoA+5 has that nasty Free Action effect which overrides any kind of haste, making the Boots of Speed (among other things) useless. Especially in the late game, when everyone is running at warp speed, having a character trudge on behind the rest of the party is annoying and pretty much prevents the player from consistently using the FoA (meaning it actually gets weakened by the +5 upgrade rather than improved). Could you include a component that modifies Free Action so that it does not actually prevent creatures from benefitting from other effects? The idea/rationale would be that one beneficial effect shouldn't cancel another.

Personally I find silly to have the entire party "running at warp speed", and Boots of Speed shouldn't be the most common pair of boots in the Realms (blame poor design).

 

It's quite clear in vanilla that Free Action prevents Haste and similar beneficial effects, and even if I don't like it I really don't think SCS should start to include this kind of tweaks.

 

If you want Free Action to not prevent beneficial effects simply install Miloch's PnP Free Action mini-mod (easiest option) or try to look if IR and SR appeal you.

[Guest Baronius Talking Points]

Unmodded, the Boots of Speed provide a haste effect with no extra attacks, not a movement speed increase, which is blocked by the Flail of Ages +5.

[Guest!]

I'm not sure whether this should go here or in the Fixpack section, but anyway. The FoA+5 has that nasty Free Action effect which overrides any kind of haste, making the Boots of Speed (among other things) useless. Especially in the late game, when everyone is running at warp speed, having a character trudge on behind the rest of the party is annoying and pretty much prevents the player from consistently using the FoA (meaning it actually gets weakened by the +5 upgrade rather than improved). Could you include a component that modifies Free Action so that it does not actually prevent creatures from benefitting from other effects? The idea/rationale would be that one beneficial effect shouldn't cancel another.

Personally I find silly to have the entire party "running at warp speed", and Boots of Speed shouldn't be the most common pair of boots in the Realms (blame poor design).

 

It's quite clear in vanilla that Free Action prevents Haste and similar beneficial effects, and even if I don't like it I really don't think SCS should start to include this kind of tweaks.

 

If you want Free Action to not prevent beneficial effects simply install Miloch's PnP Free Action mini-mod (easiest option) or try to look if IR and SR appeal you.

Silly or not, there are a number of Boots of Speed in the game and it doesn't quite make sense that the player would restrict himself from using them. Also, I don't think it "quite clear" that in the vanilla game Free Action should bar other effects - in fact, it doesn't.

I'm relatively hesitant to correct this through other mods, mostly because I think it's a poor fixing choice, though I'd consider it "orthodox" if the change were implemented in the Fixpack or in SCS2.

[Demivrgvs]

I don't think it "quite clear" that in the vanilla game Free Action should bar other effects - in fact, it doesn't.

In fact it does. Vanilla's Free Action had:

- 'immunity to movement rate bonus' opcode

- 'immunity to haste' opcode

- 'prevent portrait icon: haste'

It's quite clear they did it on purpose, being it a poor choice or not.

 

I'm relatively hesitant to correct this through other mods, mostly because I think it's a poor fixing choice, though I'd consider it "orthodox" if the change were implemented in the Fixpack or in SCS2.

I don't understand why using Miloch's work would be a "poor choice", but I don't expect such tweak to be included in Fixpack (because it's not a fix) or SCS (because SCS has nothing to do with tweaking items abilities - except when they drastically affect some encounters on player's favour, "ruining" the work to make the AI a decent challenge).

[Guest!]

In fact it does. Vanilla's Free Action had:

- 'immunity to movement rate bonus' opcode

- 'immunity to haste' opcode

- 'prevent portrait icon: haste'

It's quite clear they did it on purpose, being it a poor choice or not.

 

My memory may be fuzzy, but I clearly remember that equipping the Boots of Speed after any item that conferred Free Action resulted in both effects stacking.

 

I don't understand why using Miloch's work would be a "poor choice", but I don't expect such tweak to be included in Fixpack (because it's not a fix) or SCS (because SCS has nothing to do with tweaking items abilities - except when they drastically affect some encounters on player's favour, "ruining" the work to make the AI a decent challenge).

 

I wasn't talking about Miloch's mod. I meant that the current Free Action fix which makes effects unstackable is a poor choice. On a sidenote, SCS2 already tweaked some items' abilities (ie: removing the invisibility effect from the Staff of the Magi and allowing a ST vs Carsomyr's dispel effect).

[Demivrgvs]

I wasn't talking about Miloch's mod. I meant that the current Free Action fix which makes effects unstackable is a poor choice.

Which fix? Vanilla's Free Action (the spell) worked like that, even before Fixpack. FoA could be a different thing but only because you were able to exploit the "un-equip that item, equip the other, than re-equip the first" behaviour.

 

On a sidenote, SCS2 already tweaked some items' abilities (ie: removing the invisibility effect from the Staff of the Magi and allowing a ST vs Carsomyr's dispel effect).

Quoting my previous post: "SCS has nothing to do with tweaking items abilities - except when they drastically affect some encounters on player's favour, "ruining" the work to make the AI a decent challenge". Vanilla's Carsomyr makes fights against some creatures really too easy, while SotM's Invisibility at will was outstandingly overpowered/cheesy/exploitable and it could completely break any AI script. Tweaking Flail of Ages has nothing to do with the AI or the level of challenge SCS is trying to offer.

[Guest!]

Quoting from my previous post:

 

My memory may be fuzzy, but I clearly remember that equipping the Boots of Speed after any item that conferred Free Action resulted in both effects stacking.

[Demivrgvs]

Quoting from my previous post:

 

My memory may be fuzzy, but I clearly remember that equipping the Boots of Speed after any item that conferred Free Action resulted in both effects stacking.

I don't rememebr if the trick was this or the other way around, anyway...quoting from my previous post : "only because you were able to exploit the "un-equip that item, equip the other, than re-equip the first" behaviour" because equipping them in the other order would result in Free Action correctly block haste-like effects as intended.

 

I won't continue this "debate" sorry, I think we've said more than enough. Let's see if David wants to prove me wrong and implement such tweak.

[Guest!]

"only because you were able to exploit the "un-equip that item, equip the other, than re-equip the first" behaviour" because equipping them in the other order would result in Free Action correctly block haste-like effects as intended.

Whether you want to consider it correct behaviour or not is purely a matter of perspective. You could as well see it as the latest effect (haste) overriding another (free action). How's that an exploit?

As for what his mod should or should not be about, I'd rather leave that to DavidW. SCS2 already tweaks in some way most aspects of the game, I don't see why this specific tweak should be rejected on a matter of principle. Edit: whether David will implement it or not, I don't see how this could be relevant to rule on the "correctness" of how Free Action works.

[Demivrgvs]

I couldn't resist...

 

Whether you want to consider it correct behaviour or not is purely a matter of perspective. You could as well see it as the latest effect (haste) overriding another (free action). How's that an exploit?

It's not a matter of perspective when vanilla's Free Action has THREE opcodes specifically to block haste-like effects! Whenever you quickly switch the weapon you have to un-equip and then re-equip the boots to achieve what you want, doesn't that sounds like an exploit to the poor implementation of Free Action?

 

Now, considering I agree Free Action shouldn't block haste-like effects there's no reason to debate ithis for ages.

[Guest Baronius talking points]

The idea/rationale would be that one beneficial effect shouldn't cancel another.

One beneficial effect shouldn't override another. That would be bad.

 

You could as well see it as the latest effect (haste) overriding another (free action). How's that an exploit?

One beneficial effect should override another. That would be good.

 

Why not just install Miloch's mod and be happy with your stackable haste? I'm sure it's compatible with all and sundry, and well crafted enough to satisfy you.