3rd edition bonuses for ability points

[the bigg]

That seems like a lot of bonuses. Isn't AC disadvantaged enough?

Under my system, 14 dex grants a +2 to AC, so it evens out (more or less).

[Dermit]

That seems like a lot of bonuses. Isn't AC disadvantaged enough?

Under my system, 14 dex grants a +2 to AC, so it evens out (more or less).

 

Oh that makes sense. I think I'll try it out, have you uploaded this mod somewhere or should I just edit the 2DA files?

[Dakk]

As almost always Ardanis more or less said what I would say.

 

Regarding AD&D vs 3ed I never stand for one or the other, because I find that quite often the best solution is in the middle. For example my suggested tables are exactly in the middle, because 3ed tables grant bonuses every two ability points (e.g. STR 11 grants nothing, STR 12 grants +1 to hit and dmg) whereas "mine" would grant something for each point (e.g. STR 11 grants +1 to hit, STR 12 grants +1 dmg).

[...]

Then it's not true that DEX, WIS and INT work in a different way depending on the class, CON is the only stat that does that. DEX doesn't grant hide bonus to a pure fighter simply because he hasn't a hide ability (and thus it really doesn't matter), but a thief and a fighter-thief would get the very same bonus! Otoh CON would grant tons of hp to a fighter-thief, and very few to a thief.

 

Fantastic. My sentiment exactly - and I'd love this change.

 

Under my system, 14 dex grants a +2 to AC, so it evens out (more or less).

Oh that makes sense. I think I'll try it out, have you uploaded this mod somewhere or should I just edit the 2DA files?

The topic

and

The mod

[Demivrgvs]

STR table

Not surprisingly the first STR table I suggested to Mike is very similar to Bigg's one.

 

2DA V1.0
0
TO_HIT DAMAGE BEND_BARS_LIFT_GATES WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE
0   -5	 -5	 0					0
1   -4	 -5	 0					4
2   -4	 -4	 1					9
3   -3	 -4	 2					15
4   -3	 -3	 3					20
5   -2	 -3	 4					30
6   -2	 -2	 5					35
7   -1	 -2	 6					45
8   -1	 -1	 7					50
9	0	 -1	 8					60
10  0	  0	  10				   70
11  0	  1	  15				   90
12  1	  1	  15				   100
13  1	  2	  15				   120
14  2	  2	  20				   140
15  2	  3	  20				   160
16  3	  3	  25				   180
17  3	  4	  25				   250
18  4	  4	  30				   250
19  4	  6	  35				   300
20  5	  6	  40				   350
21  5	  8	  45				   450
22  6	  8	  50				   550
23  6	  10	 60				   750
24  7	  10	 70				   1000
25  7	  12	 80				   1600

The differences are few but may be noticeable (and debatable):

- negative bonuses are speculiar to positive ones, thus damage is the first thing that get decreased

- going from 18 to 19 grants +2 to dmg instead of +1 and I planned to subtly keep exceptional strength by dividing the 2 points (+1 with 01-50, +2 with 51-00)

- going from 20 to 21, 22 to 23, and 24-25 grants +2 to dmg instead of +1 (this part of the table is very very similar to AD&D/vanilla one)

 

 

DEX table

I'd make it work more or less as STR one, with a +1 to hit every odd number (e.g. 11, 13, ...) and +1 to AC ever even number (12, 14, ...). The 'to hit' bonus is purposedly assigned in a different way compared to STR one for various reasons: creatures like elves who can have DEX 19 get +1 to hit with ranged weapons just like in AD&D; AC vs. all weapons seems a more "solid" bonus and thus is gained later.

 

 

CON table

This is slightly more "intriguing" because I actually suggested Mike to use the 'regeneration rate' bonus to simulate PnP "heal on rest" rule and "fast healing" feats. I'd propose to have a creature with CON 10 heal one hit point every hour (300 real time seconds), thus 8 hit points per rest (8 in-game hours). Then every odd number (CON 11, 13, ...) the creature can recover from his wounds faster (e.g a creature with CON 17 may recuperate 1 hp every 120 seconds).

 

Obviously the "regeneration" has to be extremely low, to make it completely pointless during a fight. It should only allow a fighter with high CON (17-19) to sustain a longer campaing slightly better, and to restore his health quite effectively with a full rest (to reduce the need of tons of healing potions/spells for every scratch).

 

This is a quite debatable feature (though it's actually not much distant from PnP even if it doesn't look like it), thus I'd like to know what players think about it (actually I wanted to know Mike's opinion before "exposing" myself on this matter, but he still hasn't replied ).

[Dermit]

This is a quite debatable feature (though it's actually not much distant from PnP even if it doesn't look like it), thus I'd like to know what players think about it (actually I wanted to know Mike's opinion before "exposing" myself on this matter, but he still hasn't replied ).

 

I like it.

[Ardanis]

Very slow regeneration at lower CON values is precisely what I was considering to suggest. But you probably know that.

 

Although not a hp per hour at basic CON - that would ruin the balance in BG1. Maybe like this:

10 - 1200

12 - 900

14 - 600

16 - 300

18 - 150

20 - 60

[Jarno Mikkola]

Very slow regeneration at lower CON values is precisely what I was considering to suggest. But you probably know that.

 

Although not a hp per hour at basic CON - that would ruin the balance in BG1. Maybe like this:

10 - 1200

12 - 900

14 - 600

16 - 300

18 - 150

20 - 60

Do you know what the problem here is? See, no one needs to use the healing spells anymore, as when you save the game and then load it, your whole group autoregens to max hit points... not just Kagain, but everyone else too.

 

17  3	  4	  25				   250
18  4	  4	  30				   250
19  4	  6	  35				   300

Can't you make the WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE increase by one with every exceptional strength point? So that would end up with: 350 at 18/100 and 400 with 19. If the 18 is 250...

[Ardanis]

when you save the game and then load it, your whole group autoregens to max hit points

Huh? You sure?

 

Can't you make the WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE increase by one with every exceptional strength point? So that would end up with: 350 at 18/100 and 400 with 19. If the 18 is 250...

Second this.

[the bigg]

Huh? You sure?

I've heard the same rumor from Six of Spades.

[Demivrgvs]

Very slow regeneration at lower CON values is precisely what I was considering to suggest. But you probably know that.

 

Although not a hp per hour at basic CON - that would ruin the balance in BG1. Maybe like this:

10 - 1200

12 - 900

14 - 600

16 - 300

18 - 150

20 - 60

Let's say it doesn't surprise me you thought the same. When it comes to the values I said myself that they are debatable. Anyway, they should be granted by odd numbers imo (to make sure elves cannot have those 10 hit points from CON 18), thus with CON 11, 13, 15, and so on. Then there may be a slightly more noticeable gap between CON 17 (available to every creature) and CON 19 (available to half/orcs and dwarves). I'll think about it a little more and post another table asap.

 

Can't you make the WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE increase by one with every exceptional strength point? So that would end up with: 350 at 18/100 and 400 with 19. If the 18 is 250...

Second this.

Nice idea Jarno. It's a minor thing but it indeed makes sense, and at least it adds some sense to the exceptional strength thing (coupled with the splitted 2 points of damage).

 

when you save the game and then load it, your whole group autoregens to max hit points

Huh? You sure?

I've heard the same rumor from Six of Spades.

Unless I'm missing something it doesn't happen. I just tried to tweak CON table (to have some characters with healing factor) then after injuring a couple of characters I've saved and re-loaded the game, and they remained injured.

 

Can someone confirm if this rumor in true, and when it happens?

[Sorrow]

The main problem is the lazy fighter design in AD&D. Fighters should have their own special abilities representing the techniques that they have learned during years of training.

Also, lack of such abilities makes fighters mind-numbingly boring in comparison to other classes.

[SixOfSpades]

Hm. Sounds like everybody's (finally) working on the same idea at the same time. I'm overhauling all the stats too, although not to fit 3rd Edition or anything canon like that, I'm just shooting for having things smoother & making more sense.

 

STR: I've never liked the Exceptional STR stat, so I did nerf its effects somewhat (pushing the focus back onto basic STR), but I confess that the idea of doing away with it entirely didn't even occur to me. Although, I do like two things about it: The rate-of-return for increasing each stat is almost completely linear in the normal Human range of 3-18, but as the stat becomes more & more superhuman, the benefits gained increase more & more steeply--godly stats should confer godly abilities. Also, Bashing Ability maxes out at 100%, not just 80: Not being "able" to force a locked door makes very little sense when you could easily just punch a hole right through the damn wall.

 

DEX: Not entirely coincidentally, my table also grants an AC boost when you go up to most even numbers, and a ranged THAC0 boost when you go up to most odd ones. Keldorn finally takes an AC hit from his sub-par DEX. I'm making the Thieving skills react differently, too: Each extra point of DEX grants an additional 7.5% in Pick Pockets, but only 2.5% in Hide in Shadows.

 

CON: As mentioned, slow regeneration causes bugs, at least with the numbers I was working with. In my table, Joe Average with 11 CON regenerates 1hp/14400 seconds, or 1 hp per game day, while someone with 19 CON heals 1hp/300 seconds, or half an hour. These numbers were chosen to grant realistic & meaningful Regen without knocking Kagain out of the game . . . but in BG2, injured party members will inexplicably and randomly auto-Heal upon a Reload. (In the BG1 engine, party members can actually regenerate themselves to death, which is an amazingly nasty can of worms.) I don't know if these bugs are caused by the extremely slow Regen rates I was asking the game to keep track of, or by simply asking the game to grant any Regen at all at CON values less than 20. But either way, I'm abandoning this aspect of my Tweakpack until I can find some numbers that make the game better instead of worse.

On the good side: Non-Warriors are no longer effectively capped at 16 CON. They can still gain extra hp from going beyond 16, they simply gain only half the benefits that Warriors do.

 

INT: I managed to fix the spell-scribing issue I told the_bigg about, so one's odds of scribing spells are now a nice, smooth curve, and not vanilla's "almost no change at all through 19-23 INT, followed by a huge spike at 24". 25 INT is now the only value at which you can scribe every spell of a given level, meaning now players will actually have to stop & think about which spells they actually want to memorize. Lore is made smoother & more realistic as well.

 

WIS: Bonus spells for Priests are virtually unchanged at low-mid WIS values, but those with really high WIS can finally get some extra 6th & 7th-level spells from it. Also keeps high-level, high-WIS Priests from overflowing their displayable Levels 4 & 5 spellslots, and generally makes the progression smoother.

 

CHA: You can start gaining small discounts at 12 CHA, instead of 16, discounts are no longer capped at 20 CHA (when the roof unfolds & a choir of immaculate angels descends, singing sweet poetry and smelling of finest incense, damn right you give them more than just 25% off), and stores now actually jack their prices up for ugly, rude people.

[Constantine]

INT: 25 INT is now the only value at which you can scribe every spell of a given level, meaning now players will actually have to stop & think about which spells they actually want to memorize.

Ugh. Forcing us players to reload, are you? Or you mean there's no maximum cap of spells that player can memorize?

[SixOfSpades]

INT: 25 INT is now the only value at which you can scribe every spell of a given level, meaning now players will actually have to stop & think about which spells they actually want to memorize.

Ugh. Forcing us players to reload, are you? Or you mean there's no maximum cap of spells that player can memorize?

The maximum number of displayable learned spells is 24 per spell level. Having 25 INT will let you scribe all 24 (actually, 99, but anything above 24 is irrelevant). 24 INT will let you scribe only 23, 23 INT will let you scribe 22, 22 INT will let you scribe 21, and so on until you get to 2 INT, at which point you're so stupid that you can only learn 1 spell of each level.

"Forcing players to Reload" will not be an issue: If you have ToB (and who doesn't), you can right-click a learned spell and choose to erase it from your spellbook, leaving room for another. I find the idea of Mages taking a moment to consider just how often they're likely to cast Contagion more appealing than Mages going, "All right, finally a scroll of Contagion! Another easy 4000 EXP."

[Jarno Mikkola]

The maximum number of displayable learned spells is 24 per spell level. Having 25 INT will let you scribe all 24 (actually, 99, but anything above 24 is irrelevant).

Well, but there is two hacks for that, the ToBEx and the Taimons... so set the higher stats numbers to 50+ scribe-able spells, not 24. Or people just unlearn and re-learn a ping, you get another 4000 XP... and believe me, that's not fun for in a megamod.

--SCROLLABLE MAGE BOOK KNOWN SPELLS

--SCROLLABLE PRIEST BOOK KNOWN SPELLS

 

STR table

2DA V1.0
0
TO_HIT DAMAGE BEND_BARS_LIFT_GATES WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE
0   -5	 -5	 0					0
1   -4	 -5	 0					4
2   -4	 -4	 1					9
3   -3	 -4	 2					15

You do know that the damage goes around to +256 if you reduce it beyond the max of zero? So a normal thief with a STR of 3 could hit the target about ~1275 per backstab... you do still remember that this happened in Item Rev with an item... so my suggestion is that you do not alter the damage at all, but the Thac0 alone.