Comments/observations on run with IR, SR, SCS2

[Demivrgvs]

I suppose I'll have to remove immunity to imprisonment from them, though then I'd surely need to add a block in the scripts to handle that, as I'm almost sure an imprisoned deva/planetar cause an issue like Incatatar's one. Am I wrong?

It will cause a problem, yes (I think).

 

Let me know if you decide to remove the feature; if not, I'll stop Imprisoning celestials when SR is installed (though I don't expect an imminent new release).

Well, for compatibility's sake I could remove it even in a quick hotfix, but before going for it I'd have to be sure it doesn't cause the above mentioned issue, and you seem to agree it would cause it.

 

Speaking of this matter, I'd have a couple of things to tell/ask you if you don't mind.

 

 

Protection from Evil vs Summoned Demons

Since the latest SR's hotfix Protection from Evil doesn't grant "non-detection/immunity" to summoned demons anymore. I've done this for many reasons, but amongst others it makes your changes to AI summoned demons consistent (I really disliked the huge inconsistency). I've a favor to ask though, could you please restore their "summoned demon" gender when SR is installed? Or alternatively you could simply use an unused ids entry as long as it allows to detect a summoned demon, right now your change makes it impossible.

 

 

Banishment

For SR V4 I've planned to replace Death Spell spl file with the much more appropriate Banishment and I'd like to know your opinion on this matter, specifically:

a) should it allow a save?

b) should it affect summoned demons and celestials?

 

a) In PnP the spell allow a save, and from a balancing point of view I actually think it should (it would still be a "mass insta-kill" effect which bypasses magic resistance), but I don't know if it would ruin SCS use of it, or make it too unppealing for you.

 

b) again, I'd say it should as long as a save is allowed (killing multiple pit fiends with a 6th lvl spell without a save would be silly).

 

Summoning Cap Limit

Many players asked to remove the cap and I'm less against it then I was some time ago (it makes low lvl summons much more appealing, and the cap itself is kinda "4th wall breaking") though I still have a couple of doubts about it. The one related to SCS is: how do you detect a summoned creature in order to cast Death Spell/Banishment on them? I suppose you check for gender, right? If that's the case I think we'd have a serious compatibility issue, unless it's easy to alter all your scripts accordingly when the component is installed (but that is more work for you).

[Ardanis]

Summoning Cap Limit

The one related to SCS is: how do you detect a summoned creature in order to cast Death Spell/Banishment on them? I suppose you check for gender, right? If that's the case I think we'd have a serious compatibility issue, unless it's easy to alter all your scripts accordingly when the component is installed (but that is more work for you).

You only have to set gender to 20 as per Sim's component, SCS already handles the rest. The only problem is that you'd need to execute a global patch on all CRE, SPL, ITM, EFF files to acknowledge that gender change (ProSummon, anti-summon, etc.). Can steal that from Sim, but it needs to be done as last as possible, so I think you need a separate component for that.

Regarding Impris, I really think it should just kill summons outright, saves a lot of headache and confusion. You probably don't want to allow for multiple celestials (check BG2Tweakpack, or patch the EXE), so having one imprisoned would be troublesome to hadnle.

 

Banishment

a) should it allow a save?

b) should it affect summoned demons and celestials?

My opinion as a player - no and no. Since it no longer would work on normal targets, it shouldn't get any more weaker. Celestials, genies, princes and demons - immunity to banishment is a cheap power-up, unlike raising mindlessly their stats or something.

[Daulmakan]

Death Spell gets rid of summoned creatures. Celestials and demons are normally gated in (so they have no restriction on their actions in the Prime Material Plane).

[Demivrgvs]

Summoning Cap Limit

The one related to SCS is: how do you detect a summoned creature in order to cast Death Spell/Banishment on them? I suppose you check for gender, right? If that's the case I think we'd have a serious compatibility issue, unless it's easy to alter all your scripts accordingly when the component is installed (but that is more work for you).

You only have to set gender to 20 as per Sim's component, SCS already handles the rest. The only problem is that you'd need to execute a global patch on all CRE, SPL, ITM, EFF files to acknowledge that gender change (ProSummon, anti-summon, etc.). Can steal that from Sim, but it needs to be done as last as possible, so I think you need a separate component for that.

Indeed it would be a separate component, and as long as Sim don't mind I'd gladly steal his code if it's already SCS compatible.

 

Regarding Impris, I really think it should just kill summons outright, saves a lot of headache and confusion. You probably don't want to allow for multiple celestials (check BG2Tweakpack, or patch the EXE), so having one imprisoned would be troublesome to hadnle.

As I said, I kinda like David idea to use Imprisonment as a sort of Improved Dismissal (I see almost no point right now in this 9th lvl spell because you miss both xp and loot on normal targets, not to mention that it's uber-overpowered too in theory if it wasn't almost unusable), thus I'm fine with removing celestial's immunity to it (despite it being a PnP thing).

 

I have to make sure we can detect celestials then, and I think we can easily do that by setting their gender to 'BOTH-5'. Then I'd say using a "self destroy" effect applied to summoned creatures, summoned demons and celestials via EFF should do the trick.

 

 

Banishment

a) should it allow a save?

b) should it affect summoned demons and celestials?

My opinion as a player - no and no. Since it no longer would work on normal targets, it shouldn't get any more weaker. Celestials, genies, princes and demons - immunity to banishment is a cheap power-up, unlike raising mindlessly their stats or something.

a) It wouldn't be weeker if it would be able to counter those outstandingly powerful high lvl summons.

b) celestials and demons surely don't need such feature to be outstandingly effective, don't you agree? Not to mention they have very good saves. Even if I'll slightly nerf them in V4 they are still going to be uber-powerful, mainly because I like them to remain such, and because they need to match their SCS in-game/non-summoned versions as much as possible imo.

 

The only creatures suffering from b) would be genies imo.

 

 

Death Spell gets rid of summoned creatures. Celestials and demons are normally gated in (so they have no restriction on their actions in the Prime Material Plane).

I know, at least that is how this spell work in BG. Death Spell has absolutely no particular effect on summoned creatures in any other game or PnP source. The only similar anti-summon spell in PnP is Banishment, and such spell works on gated creatures.

 

Anyway, I was only suggesting it because while almost any BG spell has a good "counter" (e.g. spell protections vs removals, damage dealing-spells vs protection spells, summons vs Death Spell, etc) these uber powerful gated creatures never had one (though I missed David's idea of using Imprisonment till now). If there's a consensus to keep Banishment almost identical to Death Spell (just removing the inst-kill 8HD effect) I can accept that.

[Ardanis]

Summoning Cap Limit

I have to make sure we can detect celestials then, and I think we can easily do that by setting their gender to 'BOTH-5'. Then I'd say using a "self destroy" effect applied to summoned creatures, summoned demons and celestials via EFF should do the trick.

Or 146 immunity to the kill resource, then 146 the killing SPL itself. Those susceptible can then be immune to the first, and as such killed by the second.

It can allow for better customization imo, somewhat better compatibility in theory too. Mm, and I hate female summons chanting in male voice when casting...

 

Banishment

a) It wouldn't be weeker if it would be able to counter those outstandingly powerful high lvl summons.

b) celestials and demons surely don't need such feature to be outstandingly effective, don't you agree? Not to mention they have very good saves.

It might be two sides of the same coin then. Although atm I would prefer permanency, rather than save. Or so I think at least... maybe not really... You've just turned the persuasion mode on, haven't you?

[Constantine]

I suppose I'll have to remove such feature from them, though then I'd surely need to add a block in the scripts to handle that, as I'm almost sure an imprisoned deva/planetar cause an issue like Incatatar's one. Am I wrong?

Don't do it. Let's stay true to the PnP.

[Shaitan]

I suppose I'll have to remove such feature from them, though then I'd surely need to add a block in the scripts to handle that, as I'm almost sure an imprisoned deva/planetar cause an issue like Incatatar's one. Am I wrong?

Don't do it. Let's stay true to the PnP.

I'm all in for better compatability with SCSII

[Incantatar]

Regarding Banishment as replacement for Death Spell, i find it a bit overpowered for a lvl6 spell to remove Planetars/Devas. In 3.5 it's Clr6/Wiz7 and requires a caster level check. In 2e it's Wiz7 and allows a saving throw and has a cap of 2hd/caster level.

And to make it plausible it should work on Demons/Devils/Imps and all other extraplanar enemies, which would make it quite powerful and very useful especially endgame.

 

 

Back to my current playthrough. (Feel free to continue discussion)

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #0 // BG2 Fixpack - Core Fixes: v9.01
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #1000 // BG2 Fixpack - Game Text Update -> GTU Light (by Wisp): v9.01
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #2 // Spellcasting in Armor -> Allow Spellcasting in Armor with a Chance of Arcane Casting Failure: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #6 // Heavy Armor Encumbrance -> Movement Speed and Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #9 // Allow Thieving Skills in Armor: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Revised Shield Bonuses: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #11 // Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #12 // Items of Protection Can Be Worn with Magical Armor: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #15 // Prevent Druids from Wearing Helmets: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #16 // Restrict Fighter/Druids to Armor that Druids Can Wear: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #17 // Weapon Changes: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #18 // Backstabbing Penalties for Inappropriate Weapons -> Backstabbing Penalties Only: v2 (Hotfix 20100602)
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Spell Revisions: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Deva and Planetar Animations: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #20 // Mirror Image Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #30 // Dispel Magic Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #40 // Cure Sleep Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #60 // Update Spellbooks of Joinable NPCs: v3
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #1000 // Detectable spells (required for most other components): v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #1010 // Allow enemy AI to detect the party's magic items: v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6095 // Standardise dragon immunities: dragons in Shadows of Amn get the same immunities to vorpal attacks (etc) as their Throne of Bhaal cousins: v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6108 // Enemy mages (and Elder Orbs) use Simulacrum and Project Image spells (this component will have no effect unless you install Smarter Mages or Smarter Beholders): v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v15
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6182 // Smarter Priests -> Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v15
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #1080 // Add Bags of Holding: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #1170 // Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash): v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2261 // Alter Mage Spell Progression Table -> PnP Table: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2281 // Alter Cleric Spell Progression Table -> PnP Table: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3040 // Make Bags of Holding Bottomless: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3060 // Remove "You Must Gather Your Party..." Sound (Weimer): v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3080 // Unlimited Ammo Stacking: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3090 // Unlimited Gem and Jewelry Stacking: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3100 // Unlimited Potion Stacking: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3110 // Unlimited Scroll Stacking: v9
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3141 // Faster Chapter 1&2 Cut-Scenes and Dreams -> Non-Silly Version: v9

It does not show your revised fiends and the SR hotfix Demivrgvs, but i copied it in the folder.

 

I finished Irenicus' Dungeon carefully and noticed a few things.

 

-The Steam Mephit's Boiling Rain Storm goes through MGoI.

-In the Mephit's portal room i found pretty high level spell scrolls (in one playthrough Wiz8 in my current Wiz7). I started at 161k xp if that has something to do with it.

-The Shadow Thieves fighting the Vampire just stood there doing nothing. When i killed it they attacked me normally.

[DavidW]

Various responses:

 

(1) Just to confirm Ardanis's point: SCS already has compatibility with lifting the summoning cap built in (via a desire for compatibility with Sim's mod).

 

Specifically: I check the gender of OGRESU. If it's 20 (the number Sim used), I assume that 20 is the correct gender for summons, and then edit GENDER.IDS so SUMMONED compiles as 20 rather than the standard value.

 

(2) On balance, I'd say a replacement to the Death spell ought to carry on giving no saving throw, and for that reason shouldn't affect called-not-summoned creatures. One particular issue of concern here is that Death is one of the few reliable ways to kill off Mordenkainen's swords. I think having it affect summoned demons, even with a saving throw, is probably a bit over-weakening of those demons - Glabrezu fail about half the time, for instance.

 

... to which one response is: aren't demons overpowered anyway? I don't really think so, not in an SCS environment. The gold standard for L8 spells is ADHW, the gold standard at L9 is Imprisonment or Timestop. (I also have a non-tactical reason for wanting interestingly-challenging high-level summons: namely, fighting high-level mages can be a bit of a waiting game and it's nice for the fighters to have something to do!)

 

(3) I'm happy to do an SR-dependent restore of SUMMONED_DEMON (when I next do a release). Out of curiosity, though, what do you want it for?

 

(4) Just to defend Imprisonment: as I've had occasion to note before in a rather different context, PCs aren't the only people who use spells, and a spell might be helpful for enemies even if not for players. I find Imprisonment very useful indeed in enemy AI (albeit I deliberately don't imprison CHARNAME).

 

(5) On a more flippant note: I've always thought that the permanent decrease in your summoning limit if your summons are Imprisoned is no more than you deserve for summoning up some poor creature, letting it get imprisoned in your service, and then casually abandoning it to languish for eternity! If you want your summoning limit back, fork out for some Freedom scrolls already

[Demivrgvs]

Banishment

a) It wouldn't be weeker if it would be able to counter those outstandingly powerful high lvl summons.

b) celestials and demons surely don't need such feature to be outstandingly effective, don't you agree? Not to mention they have very good saves.

It might be two sides of the same coin then. Although atm I would prefer permanency, rather than save. Or so I think at least... maybe not really... You've just turned the persuasion mode on, haven't you?

Yep. Anyway, let's see what other players and David think.

 

Regarding Banishment as replacement for Death Spell, i find it a bit overpowered for a lvl6 spell to remove Planetars/Devas.

- In 3.5 it's Clr6/Wiz7 and requires a caster level check.

- In 2e it's Wiz7 and allows a saving throw and has a cap of 2hd/caster level.

- And to make it plausible it should work on Demons/Devils/Imps and all other extraplanar enemies, which would make it quite powerful and very useful especially endgame.

- As you say it's a 6th lvl spell for clerics, and I'd be simply allow mages to get it at the same lvl. If it's balanced as a 6th lvl spell for a cleric, shouldn't it be balanced for a mage too?

- Yep, that's why I'm suggesting to make it allow a save. The 2hd/caster lvl limit isn't as restricting as you might think, even a 12th lvl caster could affect a 24HD pit fiend.

- I wouldn't let it affect non-summoned/gated demons actually

 

That being said, it may remain just as BG's Death Spell, but I don't see how you'd consider that less overpowered considering it did almost the same and without allowing a save. Death Spell could destroy multiple 20HD elemental princes, a horde of Skeleton Warriors, Mordy Swords, Nishruus and Hakeashars all at once without a save...but then it can't affect a single 14HD Deva.

 

 

Various

I finished Irenicus' Dungeon carefully and noticed a few things.

-The Steam Mephit's Boiling Rain Storm goes through MGoI.

-In the Mephit's portal room i found pretty high level spell scrolls (in one playthrough Wiz8 in my current Wiz7). I started at 161k xp if that has something to do with it.

-The Shadow Thieves fighting the Vampire just stood there doing nothing. When i killed it they attacked me normally.

- eh, for some reason all its effects have power lvl 2, except for its damage opcode which has power lvl 0 and thus bypass anything. The place to fix it probably is BG Fixpack.

- Ardanis is probably going to handle that

- I think I reported the same to David ages ago when I was keeping a topic like yours.

 

Sorry but I think I cannot do anything for any of these issues within my mods.

[Ardanis]

Death Spell could destroy multiple 20HD elemental princes, a horde of Skeleton Warriors, Mordy Swords, Nishruus and Hakeashars all at once without a save...but then it can't affect a single 14HD Deva.

Which is a HLA spell, and as such is above mere banishment? Btw I think Princes were immune too...

 

-In the Mephit's portal room i found pretty high level spell scrolls (in one playthrough Wiz8 in my current Wiz7). I started at 161k xp if that has something to do with it.

- Ardanis is probably going to handle that

Am not. It's the random treasure issue, same that gives Spell Trap scrolls in abundance to Amnish guards and skeleton warriors. Aurora's Boots and Shoes has a component for RNDTRE tables, though I don't recall if it attends random crates. Either way, unless heavily pressed, I'd wish to stay away from it

[Incantatar]

Banishment

That being said, it may remain just as BG's Death Spell, but I don't see how you'd consider that less overpowered considering it did almost the same and without allowing a save. Death Spell could destroy multiple 20HD elemental princes, a horde of Skeleton Warriors, Mordy Swords, Nishruus and Hakeashars all at once without a save...but then it can't affect a single 14HD Deva.

Thats a good point. It was overpowered before.

 

I think Banishment would be an apropriate lvl7 spell though. Allowing a save, a cap of 2hd/lvl and 30ft radius like pnp.

 

 

Sorry but I think I cannot do anything for any of these issues within my mods.

No need to apologize, i just want to make sure these things are known.

 

 

I continued to chapter 2

-werewolves in the circus still do real damage http://img530.imageshack.us/f/baldr009.png/

-did first part of the slaver quest and have now Jaheira, Anomen and Nalia with me. Still no-reload yay.

-The smaller discounts for rep/cha are very noticable in the beginning. It's more realistic like this.

-I really like the streamlining of enchanted items prices

-Robe of Larloch is in Deidre's shop, wasn't it supposed to be reallocated?

 

Yeah i looked over your list here http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=16115 and see many things certainly different then in my current game.

[Demivrgvs]

Banishment

(2) On balance, I'd say a replacement to the Death spell ought to carry on giving no saving throw, and for that reason shouldn't affect called-not-summoned creatures. One particular issue of concern here is that Death is one of the few reliable ways to kill off Mordenkainen's swords.

Well, keeping Death Spell almost untouched except giving it a more appropriate name and description (a death effect which can kill a pure energy blade like Mordy or affect undead summons is simply unbearable) may be fine. I actually consider Death Spell a little overpowered (mass, bypass mr, no save), but perhaps not so much to consider the change "mandatory".

 

I think having it affect summoned demons, even with a saving throw, is probably a bit over-weakening of those demons - Glabrezu fail about half the time, for instance.

 

... to which one response is: aren't demons overpowered anyway? I don't really think so, not in an SCS environment. The gold standard for L8 spells is ADHW, the gold standard at L9 is Imprisonment or Timestop. (I also have a non-tactical reason for wanting interestingly-challenging high-level summons: namely, fighting high-level mages can be a bit of a waiting game and it's nice for the fighters to have something to do!)

I was only concerned that some players asked to have a way to effectively counter a group of mages who start casting multiple fiends. This is indeed less needed if the latest versions of SCS use less fiends than previous ones (last time I played it was like V11, and facing fiends back then was really too common imo).

 

(3) I'm happy to do an SR-dependent restore of SUMMONED_DEMON (when I next do a release). Out of curiosity, though, what do you want it for?

Well, one reason could have been Banishment, but there's also the possibility to add a Banish-like feature to (Un)Holy Word as per PnP, and I'd need it to "fix" the Summoning Cap Issue above mentioned...not to mention that having them detectable may be useful sooner or later for something else.

 

P.S I also have a Banishing weapon within IR V3, and considering it's a ToB weapon making it affect summoned demons could be an interesting suggestion in case we want to drastically improve its appeal.

 

 

Imprisonment

(4) Just to defend Imprisonment: as I've had occasion to note before in a rather different context, PCs aren't the only people who use spells, and a spell might be helpful for enemies even if not for players. I find Imprisonment very useful indeed in enemy AI (albeit I deliberately don't imprison CHARNAME).

Well, you do have a point...though I still find something is wrong about this spell. This spell is hugely OP (insta-kill, almost no protection from it, no save, bypass magic resistance), but at the same time it almost cannot be used by players. The strange thing is that its PnP version allows a save (with heavy penalties), but then other than bypassing magic resistance it would risk to be less appealing than its "lesser-cousin" Maze.

 

I (as a player) should probably see it as an anti-demon/fallen celestial spell, and/or just like Unholy Blight/Word consider it almost as an AI-only spell.

 

(5) On a more flippant note: I've always thought that the permanent decrease in your summoning limit if your summons are Imprisoned is no more than you deserve for summoning up some poor creature, letting it get imprisoned in your service, and then casually abandoning it to languish for eternity! If you want your summoning limit back, fork out for some Freedom scrolls already

I don't know how many players can think this way. From an SR point of view I think it's better to make Imprisonment "kill" summoned/gated creatures.

 

 

Various

I continued to chapter 2

-werewolves in the circus still do real damage http://img530.imageshack.us/f/baldr009.png/

-did first part of the slaver quest and have now Jaheira, Anomen and Nalia with me. Still no-reload yay.

Eh, cannot do much about it.

 

P.S I'd still love to see David work on this, a man can dream no?

 

-The smaller discounts for rep/cha are very noticable in the beginning. It's more realistic like this.

-I really like the streamlining of enchanted items prices

 

-Robe of Larloch is in Deidre's shop, wasn't it supposed to be reallocated?

 

Yeah i looked over your list here http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=16115 and see many things certainly different then in my current game.

That's for the next version of IR, which hopefully isn't too far if I manage to get more free time, and I don't have to spend it testing SR issues.

[DavidW]

I actually consider Death Spell a little overpowered (mass, bypass mr, no save), but perhaps not so much to consider the change "mandatory".

 

Remember that there's a lot of competition for that 6th level slot - in practice I usually struggle to find space for Death Spells (both when playing and when writing enemies) given other essentials like GoI, PMW, Truesight, etc.

 

 

(3) I'm happy to do an SR-dependent restore of SUMMONED_DEMON (when I next do a release). Out of curiosity, though, what do you want it for?

Well, one reason could have been Banishment, but there's also the possibility to add a Banish-like feature to (Un)Holy Word as per PnP, and I'd need it to "fix" the Summoning Cap Issue above mentioned...not to mention that having them detectable may be useful sooner or later for something else.

 

On reflection I'm getting a bit nervous about this - it makes me hostage to any other mod that uses a Protection from Evil effect. Can you detect summoned fiends via Allegiance:Goodbutred? Failing that, can you use a custom gender? (Then I can just code SCS not to overwrite fiend gender unless it's SUMMONED_DEMON)

 

Imprisonment

(4) Just to defend Imprisonment: as I've had occasion to note before in a rather different context, PCs aren't the only people who use spells, and a spell might be helpful for enemies even if not for players. I find Imprisonment very useful indeed in enemy AI (albeit I deliberately don't imprison CHARNAME).

Well, you do have a point...though I still find something is wrong about this spell. This spell is hugely OP (insta-kill, almost no protection from it, no save, bypass magic resistance), but at the same time it almost cannot be used by players.

 

I might not be following why it's not useful by players. Sample scenario: attack enemy adventuring band, Imprison enemy fighter (say), kill off rest of party. And then if you really want the fighter's loot: learn Freedom, rest, buff, cast, then pile on. Doesn't work for singleton opponents (e.g. dragons) but it's good against members of groups.

 

(And, of course, it's doing exactly what it says on the tin: indefinitely imprisoning the target. So obviously you don't get their loot: it's underground.)

 

The strange thing is that its PnP version allows a save (with heavy penalties), but then other than bypassing magic resistance it would risk to be less appealing than its "lesser-cousin" Maze.

 

It doesn't in my copy of the 2nd edition PH, actually. (It does require a to-hit roll.)

[Demivrgvs]

I actually consider Death Spell a little overpowered (mass, bypass mr, no save), but perhaps not so much to consider the change "mandatory".

Remember that there's a lot of competition for that 6th level slot - in practice I usually struggle to find space for Death Spells (both when playing and when writing enemies) given other essentials like GoI, PMW, Truesight, etc.

I know. Making spell choices harder is actually my job within SR, but it doesn't mean I have to make a spell OP in order to be put on every spellbook. That being said, we're not talking about a game-breaking spell at all, especially if it doesn't affect high lvl summons, thus I'm fine with leaving it almost untouched for compatibility's sake.

 

 

(3) I'm happy to do an SR-dependent restore of SUMMONED_DEMON (when I next do a release). Out of curiosity, though, what do you want it for?

Well, one reason could have been Banishment, but there's also the possibility to add a Banish-like feature to (Un)Holy Word as per PnP, and I'd need it to "fix" the Summoning Cap Issue above mentioned...not to mention that having them detectable may be useful sooner or later for something else.

On reflection I'm getting a bit nervous about this - it makes me hostage to any other mod that uses a Protection from Evil effect. Can you detect summoned fiends via Allegiance:Goodbutred? Failing that, can you use a custom gender? (Then I can just code SCS not to overwrite fiend gender unless it's SUMMONED_DEMON)

I'm not sure I understand the "hostage" thing. Anyway I should be able to do it via custom gender (if it doesn't cause any casting voice issue). Since the last hotfix summoned fiends aren't GOODBUTRED but either ALLY or ENEMY (I think aVENGER's fiends too may not be flagged as GOODBUTRED), and I actually thought even within SCS they weren't...aren't you making them true ENEMY?

 

I'll check if using a custom gender like BOTH-5 causes the issue Ardanis talked about (wrong gender voice), if not then I'll go with your suggested solution.

 

 

Imprisonment

I might not be following why it's not useful by players. Sample scenario: attack enemy adventuring band, Imprison enemy fighter (say), kill off rest of party. And then if you really want the fighter's loot: learn Freedom, rest, buff, cast, then pile on. Doesn't work for singleton opponents (e.g. dragons) but it's good against members of groups.

Ehm...two 9th lvl slot and the target is as good as before? I don't think many players can consider that appealing. Not to mention that for the very same purpose Maze is almost as effective (unless the target has sky-high mr), it's cheaper (9th lvl slot are way more important), and doesn't require you to cast another 9th lvl spell "to finish the job".

 

The strange thing is that its PnP version allows a save (with heavy penalties), but then other than bypassing magic resistance it would risk to be less appealing than its "lesser-cousin" Maze.

It doesn't in my copy of the 2nd edition PH, actually. (It does require a to-hit roll.)

Sorry, I confused it with its 3rd edition version. Anyway, requiring a to-hit roll per se is already a HUGE nerf compared to its BG version, and I may add that in 2nd edition the spell worked only "if the subject creature's name and background are known".

 

That being said, I don't see any other solution, thus it's highly unlikely that I'm going to ever touch this spell.