vampire bat cloud problem

[DrAzTiK]

Personally, I find Vampire bat cloud very boring and it's difficult to resist temptation to use cheesy methods against it.

[Ardanis]

Liches

I'd say it's good they're high level, because in PnP they possess turn resistance, otherwise unimplementable in IE.

 

Bat cloud

Balance wise I'm pro to treat it as insects. But at the same time, aren't bats a bit larger in size to be fried and ashed as easily by fireshields?

[Daulmakan]

Liches

I'd say it's good they're high level, because in PnP they possess turn resistance, otherwise unimplementable in IE.

No they don't.

 

http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/chara...urnundead.shtml

[Ardanis]

They do.

 

Priests of at least 8th level can attempt to turn a lich, as can paladins of no less than 10th level.

And also http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Lich

[DavidW]

They do.

 

Priests of at least 8th level can attempt to turn a lich, as can paladins of no less than 10th level.

And also http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Lich

 

Not that it especially matters, but that quote (from the 2nd edition monster manual, I think?) doesn't actually translate to any turn resistance: it's just the place you'd expect to find liches on the standard 2nd edition turning table. Turn resistance didn't appear until 3rd edition.

[Daulmakan]

They do.

 

Priests of at least 8th level can attempt to turn a lich, as can paladins of no less than 10th level.

And also http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Lich

Err, you just contradicted yourself. First you state that liches resist turning, then quote 2E saying that they don't...

 

Core of BG2 is based on 2E, as is the turn undead ability, quoting 3E+ seems pointless.

 

I'm not sure a quote from a BG site is particularly dispositive as to the PnP rules... but as it happens, I think you're right (about 2nd edition liches).

It was the first one I found on the net, and it's identical to the one in 2E Player's Manual.

[Ardanis]

Priests of at least 8th level can attempt to turn a lich, as can paladins of no less than 10th level.

Monster Manual, yes. And since they can only turn liches on mid-high levels, doesn't that implies the latters are... resistant to it?

 

Not to mention that there're no Sorcerers or Monks in 2nd ADnD, so that makes BG2 a mix of 2nd ADnD and 3rd DnD.

[Daulmakan]

Priests of at least 8th level can attempt to turn a lich, as can paladins of no less than 10th level.

Monster Manual, yes. And since they can only turn liches on mid-high levels, doesn't that implies the latters are... resistant to it?

No, that's ridiculous. By your same rationality, all the other undead on that list are also "resistant" to turning because low level priests can't affect them. And I guess plants, water, and animals are "resistant" to druids because they can only identify those after they reach level 3...

 

The operating effect here depends on the priest in question, not the lich. Only 8th level priests and above have the required power to serve as the appropriate vessel for their deity to inflict terror/destroy undead (from 2E Manual).

 

Not to mention that there're no Sorcerers or Monks in 2nd ADnD, so that makes BG2 a mix of 2nd ADnD and 3rd DnD.

Yeah, but I said CORE. Practically all the rest of the game is 2E.

[Miloch]

Not to mention that there're no Sorcerers or Monks in 2nd ADnD, so that makes BG2 a mix of 2nd ADnD and 3rd DnD.

Not to derail this topic much further, but no, not necessarily. One could argue it's closer to a mix between 2nd and 1st edition. Monks and many other kits/subclasses were present in 1st edition, and the BG2 implementation is a lot closer to the earlier rules than the 3rd edition buyout (as I described in your own minimod topic).

[Demivrgvs]

Not to mention that there're no Sorcerers or Monks in 2nd ADnD, so that makes BG2 a mix of 2nd ADnD and 3rd DnD.

Not to derail this topic much further, but no, not necessarily. One could argue it's closer to a mix between 2nd and 1st edition. Monks and many other kits/subclasses were present in 1st edition, and the BG2 implementation is a lot closer to the earlier rules than the 3rd edition buyout (as I described in your own minimod topic).

Now, this debate is almost pointless, because fortunately David doesn't consider neither 2nd nor 3rd edition PnP as God's law, but often use a mix of the two, plus ideas of his own.

 

And that is exactly what BG2 is, a mix of 2nd, 3rd and non-PnP things (sometimes for the good, other times not).

 

That being said, what was the point? You want David to make liches turnable by a mid lvl priest because that's as per AD&D? That doesn't make sense, we don't want MoD to kill them so easily, and then we allow mid-high lvl clerics to obliterate a horde of liches on sight?

 

P.S (Off-Topic) You can say that Monk class was present in old edition, but the one in BG2 is closer to 3rd (and developers themselves said they were mixing in 3rd edition things because it was out at that time). Then, Sorcerer didn't existed at all before 3rd edition, the Barbarian in BG2 is clearly the 3rd edition one, not the AD&D one, Berserker kit has nothing to do with AD&D Berserker who had animal-totem based concept, and I could continue. Let's just say BG2 core rules are surely based on 2nd edition, but it never strived to remain true to those rules.

[Salk]

That doesn't make sense, we don't want MoD to kill them so easily, and then we allow mid-high lvl clerics to obliterate a horde of liches on sight?

 

I find this a harsh exaggeration. Turning them doesn't translate into destruction, as you well know. Destruction by turning is something that we experince only when the difference in level between cleric and undead is so big that the enemy doesn't usually represent a real challenge. I don't see any blasphemy in a high level cleric having moderate chances of scaring a lich through the power conferred by his god.

[Salk]

Bat cloud

Balance wise I'm pro to treat it as insects. But at the same time, aren't bats a bit larger in size to be fried and ashed as easily by fireshields?

 

I agree completely with you. Still I would rather sacrifice realism for game balance.

[Demivrgvs]

That doesn't make sense, we don't want MoD to kill them so easily, and then we allow mid-high lvl clerics to obliterate a horde of liches on sight?

 

I find this a harsh exaggeration. Turning them doesn't translate into destruction, as you well know. Destruction by turning is something that we experince only when the difference in level between cleric and undead is so big that the enemy doesn't usually represent a real challenge. I don't see any blasphemy in a high level cleric having moderate chances of scaring a lich through the power conferred by his god.

With vanilla's liches (11HD) a cleric of 18th lvl (not hard to reach at all within SoA) would destroy any lich on sight, with 100% chance. Even a L14 cleric would be able to turn them with 50% chance (each round), and a turned lich is as good as dead even if it's not destroyed.

 

Do you still consider my previous post a "harsh exaggeration"?

 

P.S Add to that the there's absolutely no way to protect from Turn Undead ability.

[Shaitan]

That doesn't make sense, we don't want MoD to kill them so easily, and then we allow mid-high lvl clerics to obliterate a horde of liches on sight?

 

I find this a harsh exaggeration. Turning them doesn't translate into destruction, as you well know. Destruction by turning is something that we experince only when the difference in level between cleric and undead is so big that the enemy doesn't usually represent a real challenge. I don't see any blasphemy in a high level cleric having moderate chances of scaring a lich through the power conferred by his god.

With vanilla's liches (11HD) a cleric of 18th lvl (not hard to reach at all within SoA) would destroy any lich on sight, with 100% chance. Even a L14 cleric would be able to turn them with 50% chance (each round), and a turned lich is as good as dead even if it's not destroyed.

 

Do you still consider my previous post a "harsh exaggeration"?

 

P.S Add to that the there's absolutely no way to protect from Turn Undead ability.

Wow is the chance that good? Now I wish for all liches to be level 35+ if that keeps them from being turned.

[DavidW]

That doesn't make sense, we don't want MoD to kill them so easily, and then we allow mid-high lvl clerics to obliterate a horde of liches on sight?

 

I find this a harsh exaggeration. Turning them doesn't translate into destruction, as you well know. Destruction by turning is something that we experince only when the difference in level between cleric and undead is so big that the enemy doesn't usually represent a real challenge. I don't see any blasphemy in a high level cleric having moderate chances of scaring a lich through the power conferred by his god.

 

Turning is functionally equivalent to destruction in nearly all BG2 circumstances. Perhaps there's a partial exception for situations where some undead are part of a larger group consisting mostly of non-undead; even then, not really. And liches are normally encountered alone. (Recall that (a) turning is not probabilistic in BG2, and (b) there is no limit to how often you can turn.)

 

 

(Turning is not functionally equivalent to control, of course; that's the main game-mechanical consequence of being high enough level to Destroy undead, other than the convenience of not having to wipe them out.)