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You should actually try the battle on Insane, several times, and calculate your win/loss ratio rather than making hypothetical assumptions about damage. It's clear enough that a warrior class won't always be at max health when the enemy unleashes a big spell (especially on Insane), and you conveniently forgot about the Improved Web on the battlefield, which will hold any character trying to swap protection rings for the golems to crush him. There are other factors you forgot - like the fact that not only the RB's defences would be dispelled and he won't be the one target you have to save from chunking. We can go on and on like that, but seriously, before disregarding any opinions, first sit down and test a bit. I can't stand empty words, and you're beginning to sound more and more like Sikret's hollow sentences.

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Abazigal was easy, then hard, then easy.


First form is a cake walk, and like with Sendai, you can use this time to prep for the finale.


Abazigal in dragon form appears with an Ultra Golem and an Ice Golem, and the room begins spawning a Salamander Prince every 30 seconds or so. You can kill the Salamander Princes, but as far as I can tell, you cannot kill the Ultra Golem and Ice Golem. So, this battle needs to be short or you'll be overwhelmed. Can't just play defense and wait it out.


Abazigal appears and throws your party back. You also appear to be completely debuffed at this time. It doesn't appear to be the Ultra Golem's doing, either, since the party is scattered to the corners of the room, and no message appears saying it was the Ultra.


Cernd approaches first under Alacrity, buffs up, and Dispel Magic on Abazigal. F/M, F>M, Riskbreaker and Vagrant approach. The former two Spell Trigger (Improved Haste, PFMW, Stoneskin) while the latter two use Improved Haste and Hardiness, respectively. Imoen approaches under Alacrity and fires off a breach when the fighters arrive. From then on, it's just a matter of having Imoen casting Breaches, and Cernd being ready to insta-heal and Cat Figurine when needed. Imoen's Chain Contingency (on hit) pulls up a couple of trolls and a Foreknowledge when she gets hit by the Ice Golem's ice storm, and her Spell Trigger summons up 3 Skeleton Warriors. Cernd summons while under alacrity if it looks like a second or two will go by without needing an insta-heal. Abazigal uses his first two Silence's on F/M and F>M, clearing the way for Imoen to Breach unmolested. Abazigal goes down very quickly (despite the high HP, dragons have much lower resistances in this mod, around the 50's, so are rather easy to down once breached).


Once he's down, I expect hell from the Ultra Golem, Amber Golem that he summoned (thus far), Salamander Prince, and the Ice Golem, but the battle is in fact over and they just disappear. Really weird.


I guess I have just some vanilla stuff to go at this point, until the final encounter. Picking a Vagrant protagonist was kind of my style (I typically pick rangers in these types of games, if possible), but I can definitely see the value of having a Necromancer, who - with equipment - is an unsilenceable mage... a huge asset in these fights. Indeed, if all three of my arcane casters were silenced in this fight, I would not have been able to win.


The other annoyance with the Vagrant is that the boots - required, as far as I can tell, to do enough damage to kill the anti-ranger in the vagrant quest - remove your ability to outfit your team entirely in boots of speed. So you need to rely on "tossing" the boots back and forth as needed.


On the plus side, Swanmays can indeed soak up damage and provide reasonable fighting capabilities. They also largely shrug off things like Fire Shield, so you can let them pound away on mages until a Stoneskin is gone. And the Judgment Day sword is spectacular, keeping a character buffed defensively, even when Silenced. Providing a nice distraction for an enemy to focus on continually debuffing them. The only annoyance is when it casts PFMW and the enemy then changes targets, away from my heavily-damage-reduced warrior.


Once I finish the vanilla stuff, will post how much Experience it appears I found in TOB, and how much gold/items throughout the game, for reference.

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My hypothetical defenses are precisely as hollow as your hypothetical "what happens when buffs are dispelled and right at that moment a Dragon Breath lands" comments.


There are times in my life where I do things over and over and compute win/loss ratios. This is not going to be one of them. I truly don't care. Other than having to browse through your insecurities to find nuggets of useful info, this has been a relatively enjoyable experience. Any more effort than I'm already putting into it would probably tip the scales on it into the range of unenjoyable.

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Abazigal dispels your buffs automatically when switching to dragon form.


However he's vulnerable to Magic Missiles, Acid Arrows, Flame Arrows and Comets after you lower his resistance naturally. You have to cast quite a lot to kill him, but with that many arcane casters + Cernd approaching from different directions, you can definitely unleash hell upon him before someone is silenced. Probably the logical choice for silence-target would be the F/M multi (no alacrity).


Abazigal has no PFMW in dragon from as far as I remember, however he has a really good AC.

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Can't say for certain. In my tests, I've often seen the demon not actually switching shape for more than a turn. Doesn't seem to be damage dependant. It's most likely that there is some % probability of him switching shape after several rounds. Supposedly if you could prolong the fight enough, you can see all forms :)

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Regarding Chromatic Demon, I agree, it seems randomly time-based. I didn't notice IA altering this.


Abazigal definitely has PFMW's in dragon form. Looking in NearInfinity, it appears he'll cast it up to four times if his HP is less than 100% and more than 20%.


Looking further at this script, it appears that when his HP is below 20%, he is supposed to cast Heal, and the Ultra Golem and Ice Golem (and the Amber Golems that were summoned) are supposed to die immediately. I don't recall this Heal happening, although I was only really watching the message box for more PFMW. I also could be wrong about the script, I know only enough to have a slight clue about what's going on.


In any case, I'm at the point where I only have The Ravager left, who I believe is vanilla and should not pose a threat. Bought a bunch of upgraded items and am sitting on 60k. The only thing I'd do at this point is either (a) buy some mage scrolls just in case, (b) try to sell some stuff to hit 100k and put the Noble Staff of Fire/Air together, or © do the pointless upgrade of the ranger boots just because.


Team is as follows; no one is near a level-up, even post-Ravager:

Vagrant - level 35, 1.05M experience

Riskbreaker - level 39



Cernd - 39

Imoen - 32


Regarding Fighter-Mage dual vs. Multi... both have had their pluses. The multi has been a more useful overall character, but is barely making a dent in the level 9 spells. So if they're needed for the final battle, he won't be able to help much in that regard. (I also wasn't able to give him enough WIS to be useful for wishes, because I maxed his CHA to buy stuff with discount). The dual is a really good mage, but not quite the fighter I like. With 23 STR and a +5 weapon, he has -8 Thac0 with GM in +5 Halberds, and -9 Thac0 with Mastery in +6 Quarterstaves. Decent for fodder, but whiffs a lot against the bosses.


If I were to do this over, I'd actually just change one thing: I'd still dual at level 15, but I'd make him a Kensai instead of a Berserker. The Berserk ability was nice in the early stages, but I've not used it once since recovering the dual. On the other hand, the +5 to Thac0 would make a hug difference, putting him at -13 or -14, which is better than my F/M multi with 24 Strength and Phosphorus in main hand. And the +5 in damage from the Kensai would just be icing on the cake. I have pretty terrible armor on the F>M (Robe of the Good Magi), so I'd only be losing the +1 to Saving Throws and 5% Magic Resist by not being able to wear that. Would be a huge upgrade.


For reference, main-hand Thac0 with weapon(s) of choice:

Vagrant: -16 Thac0 (25 STR), Judgment Day, Flail of Defending/Wounding +5. Rarely used: Lakesider Axe +5, Axe of the Unyielding +5

Riskbreaker: -16 Thac0 (25 STR), Foebane +5, upgraded Crom Faeyr. Rarely used: Death of a Thousand Cuts +4, The Truth +5

F/M: -12 Thac0 (24 STR), Phosphorus +4, Belm. Rarely used: Short Sword of Mask +4, The Answerer +4

F>M: -8 Thac0 (23 STR), Dragon's Bane +5, Staff of the Ram +6, Poseidon's Wrath +5. Rarely used: Ravager +6, Warblade +5, Gram +6, Noble Staff of Air +4, Noble Staff of Fire +4.


The Truth was kind of a waste of money in hindsight. I mean, I guess I don't have anything better to spend it on, but really I just used it as my second +4-or-better weapon.


The Answerer is heavily nerfed, but I could foresee some applications for it under the right circumstances.


Complete list of upgrades made:


4 ring +2 = 120k

4 cloak +2 = 120k (everyone has +2 for all rings and cloaks)

Flail of Defending and Wounding = 180k

Cloak of the High Forest = 50k

Judgment Day = 250k

Noble Staff of Fire = 60k

Noble Staff of Air = 60k

Dragon Lord = 200k

Worn out Bootsx4 = 200k

Boots of Ranger Lord = 125k

Crom Faeyr = 75k

Girdle of Lordly Might = 60k

Talisman of Greater Protection = 60k

Warblade = 50k

Cernd Staff #1 = 40k

Cernd Staff #2 = 80k

Ring of Greater Djinni = 75k

Iron Horn of Valhalla = 17k

Fortress Shield = 90k

Poseidon = 150k

Indigo Ioun Stone = 20k

Dragon Helm = 40k

Death of a Thousand Cuts = 65k

Girdle 23 STR = 30k

Phosphorus = 90k

Golden Cat = 80k

The Truth = 100k

Red Coral Armor = 60k

Green Wyrm Scales = -50k (from using them in the quest and making money)

Cash on hand: 60k

TOTAL = 2,600,000


Didn't realize it was anywhere near that, wow. I didn't buy too much else - maybe 200k in potions, scrolls, and other supplies. So if you're thrifty and do a reasonably good job of milking some enemies, seems like perhaps 2.8M is what you might expect (maybe 3.0M if you sell off all potions and scrolls and backup weapons/rings entirely, which is unadvisable). Biggest money-makers in hindsight were the Odamaron and Azamantes battles (infinite experience-giving, loot-carrying enemies), and finally selling most of the Ruby Ray and Spellstrike scrolls I had (I probably used 5 of each).


Additional assets:

280 potions of superior healing

100 oil of resurgence

23 potions of invulnerability

26 potions of barbarian essence

24 potions of magic shielding

1 to 5 various potions and scrolls of elemental protection, vitality, etc.

35 scrolls of PFME

29 scrolls of PFMW

10 scrolls of Ruby Ray

10 scrolls of Spellstrike

9 scrolls of Absolute Immunity

14 scrolls of Breach

2 scrolls of Wish

10 scrolls of Raise Dead


Made a save before selling off almost everything not listed above, so I may test out the final battle and go back and adjust based on what's actually needed

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Here's one more Saros.


Hard Nut to Crack. Some kind of Ward Stone is needed to enter the Balthis Estate. Where would that be?


Actually, you need no wardstone to enter Balthis estate. You need a pile of Adamantite dust to enter Valeria&Pitre's house, and you're given a weird Wardstone by the Old Squirrel when you defeat them and report back to lord Balthis. That stone is used in the Underdark, Kuo-Toan's altar, to summon forth an Avatar. The loot from the avatar includes a Magical Pull device, which is used on the Sun Gem pedestal in the Temple Ruins to obtain the Ruby of the Gods.

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As far as I can tell, the "Epic Divine Encounter" consists of a "Rakshasa Prince" who summons two Noble Rakshasa's every 30 seconds (each summoning Horrid Rakshasa's on their own), two Ultra Golems (each summoning an Amber Golem every 30 seconds), and one Supreme Elemental Golem (each summoning an Elemental Golem every 30 seconds, who in turn summon a Gem/Coin Golem every 30 seconds).


Because of the Vagrant quest, you get 4 Swanmay Elders at each Ultra Golem and the Supreme Golem. Not terribly helpful since I doubt they'll kill them, but at least that keeps them and their first few summons occupied.


Given that the Rakshasa Prince has "only" 75% resistance and about 400 HP, I might go for him first. Followed by the Ultra Golems, whose Amber Golem spawns are the biggest threat I foresee, since they're the only enemy here that does damage outside of Physical and Magic Energy.


Will probably give this a go later tonight. First thing I'll try, for fun: Wishing with Imoen to see if I can get the "Everyone in area gets Improved Haste". The Swanmay Elders get 2 attacks as it is; would love to buff them to 4. Though may be better to just have Imoen walk around and haste each of them for just 1 extra attack.

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Here is some info:


The Rakshasa Prince cannot be killed while the Ultra golems and the Supreme Elemental Golem are alive. You can harm him, even bring him to Near-Death, but don't expect him to die or anything.


I think he has a limited number of Noble Rakshasas to gate, 3 or 4 total.


He will fire an Universal Purge Magic (affects only party members, not summons) which affects your entire party and dispels all their buffs (barring undispellable ones). This ability will be fired regularly once each turn (starting 1 turn after the battle begins). There are various factors that would decrease the time interval or will even force a prompt Universal Purge out of nowhere. Such factors are: less than 5 party members (not sure if 2 of yours are chunked what would be the effect, probably as if you came with 4 party members from the start), presence of Spell Immunity Abjuration (the prince fires 36th level Remove Magic, the Noble Rakshasas fire 23th level I think, and the Horrid ones fire 17th level). The Ultra and Supreme golems won't fire any Purge Magic in this fight.


The prince is surrounded by a 9th level permanent fireshield which inflicts serious magical damage and also has a disabling effect if failed save vs spells I think, with either -4 or -5 penalty. Even when the prince is the last one standing, he would regularly fire Greater Malisons which will hinder you warriors' performance severely unless each of them has good saves (+4 or +5 rings can come in handy). Potions of Magic Shielding cure the effect of Greater Malison, hopefully you brought enough along. He also wields some variation of Flail of Ages +5, which will effectively slow party members if they fail save vs Wands with some penalty. His melee hits have a chance to dispel specific protections, and as far as I remember he dispels illusions on hit as well.


He will fire Lower Fire Resistance at anyone who has 50% or more resistance to fire (no matter if granted by items, innate or from spells).

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Ah, good to know about him not being killable, that saves me a few minutes, thanks. To the Ultras then first, I think...


From NearInfinity, it looks like 2 Nobles, then 1, then 1.


The Purge Magic thing all follows your description, as far as I can tell.


Blech, this is gonna be a long one, not sure when I'll have time for this, but looking forward to it...

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To the Ultras then first, I think...

I believe it's Supreme Golem who you should kill first. Criticals for several rounds should do it.

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Why do you say that?


It takes the longest to kill, and its summons (and summons summons) are almost entirely physical. Having everyone under full 100% physical resist from the barbarian essence potions should allow me to just focus on keeping buffed against fire and magic energy for the horrid wiltings and dragon breaths.


I feel like the amber golems really cause havoc since it's yet another element to worry about buffing against, and even then it's only a temporary solution.


Just did a quick trial run to fool around and was able to kill an Ultra Golem before anything meaningful happened. Buffs were just summons, Improved Haste, and 100% physical resistance for the 4 fighters. Sent the 4 party fighters to the NW Ultra, and all other summons to the SE Ultra to weaken him. Killed the first Ultra and had the second Ultra Golem to Near Death when two Noble Rakshasa's synced Dragon's Breaths on me and chunked the Fighter/Mage. Not sure how many rounds had passed, but I think I can certainly kill the Ultra Golems before the first Purge Magic. I think my next target after that should probably be the Noble Rakshasa's, to help mitigate the fire threat, and then just focus on physical buffs to take down the Supreme Golem.


The Swanmay Elders are a huge boon in this battle. It finally feels like there's something that a Vagrant has over a Necromancer (and makes the absurd Vagrant-specific quest seem a lot more worthwhile for the payoff). The elders keep the three high-level golems in place, allowing you to isolate them one by one. The elders have good staying power too, at least initially. They easily (albeit slowly) killed the Amber Golem from the first Ultra.

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Only bummer about the elders is you can't control them. Not sure what they'd do after they took down that Amber Golem (this was right as my fighter was chunked and the experiment was over)... hopefully they'd press on and head south to hit the Supreme Elemental golem, allowing me to finish off the SE Ultra and then mop up some Rakshasa's for a bit.


One thing that really stinks (but is understandable I guess) is Cernd's limit to 3 insta-heals. As a consequence I have like 12 Fists of Nature (only really good under alacrity), which I'd gladly trade 4-for-1 for insta-heals. Actually, I'd trade all 12 for one more insta-heal.


Probably best to just keep Cernd under alacrity for the first 12 rounds or so, just in case something goes wrong, so he can insta-heal, and perhaps take out some Noble Rakshasa's, as needed. By my math, 12 castings should just about take down two Noble Rakshasa's in one alacrity period.

Edited by mikel123

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