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Salk

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Let me put it another way. You are suggesting that I use some of my finite time to rework a section of SCS which, as far as I know, already works fine, in a way which will not improve user experience at all. Why would I want to use my time that way, rather than to code something else, or read a novel, or (shock) do some academic research?

 

Well, in my ignorance I was thinking that you'd not have to invest time at all to rework anything. Wouldn't TobEx do the job?

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There's a reason why the 'Super Happy Fun Lucky Modder Pack' from Fixpack turned out to be a complete waste of time.

Never! It removes this error from DLTCEP by adding blank file named as MORALEA.ids . ^^' It's brilliant. Modding without this one wouldn't be the same.

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Let me put it another way. You are suggesting that I use some of my finite time to rework a section of SCS which, as far as I know, already works fine, in a way which will not improve user experience at all. Why would I want to use my time that way, rather than to code something else, or read a novel, or (shock) do some academic research?

 

Well, in my ignorance I was thinking that you'd not have to invest time at all to rework anything. Wouldn't TobEx do the job?

 

OK, so if you're saying that the relevant features are already in ToBEx, then I'm even more confused. Why do you not just choose not to install the relevant SCS components, if you're happy with the ToBEx ones?

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...it is supposed to be installed just after the official ToB patch and is going to great lengths to keep compatibility as high as possible.

 

New users probably will find it alot easier if everything is located within one package. I'd keep Taimon's code just in case twenty years later somebody will discover a dead forum with IE mods and nobody to guide among them.

 

I'm not a "new" user, however I have zero experience in modding the game apart from some .tra files I wrote for Westley Weimer's mods ten years ago. In my opinion, most of the Weidu mods have shared a nice, stable installation list since a few years: first the official Patch, then FixPack, then everything else -- but you did read the recommended installation order in the various readmes, didn't you? -- then TweakPack. Even so, you can pick some older mods that were written before FixPack was released or that don't like it, and hence advise you to install Baldurdash instead (but should you install Baldurdash Weidu or not Weidu? and where can you find Baldurdash Weidu anyway?) And even with some more recent mods like SR and SCS, which are very actively supported and moreover meant to be played together, I've met one or two compatibility bugs in my last playthrough (though they were quite minor). So, I'm a bit doubtful about this piece of news, especially the "as high as possible" compatibility part.

 

On the other hand, I'm thrilled to learn that some people are still working on modifying the main .exe file, and if I correctly understand what has been said previously, SR and SCS already rely on such modifications without problem (though I surely cannot assess the amount of work that was needed from Demi or DavidW for it). I hence would be very glad to install this modification if it means a painless and fully compatible alteration of the engine that moreover improves the gaming experience.

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Considering we do more than just apply .exe patches, the components will need to stay regardless. We discussed adding a check to skip the .exe patches in case ToBEx was installed, but we needed a little more assurance that someone who had ToBEx installed was actually going to be using the relevant modifications. Ascension64 has been updating his mod recently so that we can do something like this.
I second this, especially because you may have missed the "we do more than just apply .exe patches" but it's kinda crucial. I'm not sure other versions of this tweak currently assure me about it (e.g. afaik SCS version of Mirror Image tweak probably doesn't cover all mod added spells like for example SR's Fire Trap), and I cannot force SR decisions about some of these tweaks onto other mods (e.g. I've made shapeshift forms unaffected by dispel using one of Taimon's patches, but SCS handle the whole matter in another way, and afaik ToBEx might not handle it at all).

 

Furthermore, I would have to put a huge warning at the beginning of the readme (which nobody reads) stating that without another mod (specifically ToBEx) many SR spells and tweaks won't work as intended. I'm very unconvinced about it, and that's why I never suggested David to remove all his spell tweaks from SCS even if SR cover them all (each and every one except Breach affecting liches). A check to skip them when SR is detected instead is really good thing imo, and I could add add a similar thing as soon as I'm 100% sure that ToBEx automatically enforce everything SR needs from Taimon's patches.

 

 

with some more recent mods like SR and SCS, which are very actively supported and moreover meant to be played together, I've met one or two compatibility bugs in my last playthrough (though they were quite minor)
Report any compatibility issue here and I'll probably fix it asap.
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[...] I would have to put a huge warning at the beginning of the readme (which nobody reads) stating that without another mod (specifically ToBEx) many SR spells and tweaks won't work as intended.

Issues aside, I sincerely believe you should adopt the DavidW approach, and not really build mod for or cater to the lowest denominator - i.e. a person not even bothering to read the readme. :)

 

DavidW wrote:

To be honest, SCS just isn't really aimed at people who don't read the readme.
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Let me put it another way. You are suggesting that I use some of my finite time to rework a section of SCS which, as far as I know, already works fine, in a way which will not improve user experience at all. Why would I want to use my time that way, rather than to code something else, or read a novel, or (shock) do some academic research?

 

Well, in my ignorance I was thinking that you'd not have to invest time at all to rework anything. Wouldn't TobEx do the job?

 

OK, so if you're saying that the relevant features are already in ToBEx, then I'm even more confused. Why do you not just choose not to install the relevant SCS components, if you're happy with the ToBEx ones?

 

I had missed this. Sorry.

 

I grant that this discussion belongs more to a place like the G3 Fixpack. But the reason I started it here is because SR makes use of .exe hacks and is probably in need of more to overcome engine limitations. SCS is drifted into the discussion merely as accessory, since it also makes use of some .exe hacks which are more or less duplicates of SR's.

 

The core reasons I had to bring up the subject were:

  1. promote a working piece of software with untapped potential that fixes engine bugs and tweaks the BG engine to meet many modders' dreams (GemRB was the pre-Taimon and pre ToBEx only hope for many things that have happened)
     
  2. my hope to see ToBEx become a standardized modding platform
     
  3. my hope to see a working sinergy between you authors in need of .exe hacks and the creatore and mantainer of TobEx, Ascension64

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Salk, I'm still not getting it. What's achieved by dropping the exe hacks in SCS (and SR) in favour of the ones in ToBEx, other than making SCS (and SR) dependent on another mod in a way they weren't before?

 

I am not asking you to drop the exe hacks in SCS and SR and adopt ToBEx now.

 

I am just saying that (SR was more in my mind than SCS then) in the future there won't be any need for more exe hacks as ToBEx will be able to do that as an (hopefully) estabilished mean to fix and tweak the game engine.

 

The scenario I imagine is one where Demi (but other modders as well) are today choosing suboptimal solutions to problems due to engine limitations or bugs in the opcodes.

 

If ToBEx is the answer to that and is also a fair replacement for existing exe hacks then I ask you: why shouldn't it become an estabilished modding instrument (especially for mods that share the same needs)?

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Demi/Mike and DW already said that the next versions of SR and SCS(II) will acknowledge TobEx and not apply the exe hack if it is installed (thus being compatible with it). Completely dropping the exe hack so that SR/SCSII now depend on TobEx will do nothing to promote TobEx adoption by either players or modders or convince Ascension to devote more time to expanding TobEx, all you would achieve is making the mods harder to install. But then again you have a mod hosted at BWL, so you must believe in silver bullets like IEMT as well.

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Demi/Mike and DW already said that the next versions of SR and SCS(II) will acknowledge ToBEx and not apply the exe hack if it is installed (thus being compatible with it).

 

First of all, there is no confirmation of this. Mike (and not Demi) spoke of having discussed the possibility of detecting ToBEx and then skip the SR's exe hacks accordingly. DavidW didn't confirm any support to ToBEx at all.

 

Second, if I had not started this thread, would have they even discussed it?

 

Completely dropping the exe hack so that SR/SCSII now depend on TobEx will do nothing to promote TobEx adoption by either players or modders or convince Ascension to devote more time to expanding TobEx, all you would achieve is making the mods harder to install.

 

I am not asking you to drop the exe hacks in SCS and SR and adopt ToBEx now.

 

But then again you have a mod hosted at BWL, so you must believe in silver bullets like IEMT as well.

 

Witty remark. I have more respect for BWL than I have for crude cynicism. The much hated Baronius has shown me nothing but uttermost kindness and has always been there for every time I needed him. He's not the only one who did that for me but he is one of them.

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I am not asking you to drop the exe hacks in SCS and SR and adopt ToBEx now.

 

What would be the virtue of ever dropping them?

 

If ToBEx is the answer to that and is also a fair replacement for existing exe hacks then I ask you: why shouldn't it become an estabilished modding instrument (especially for mods that share the same needs)?

 

It's welcome to become "an established modding instrument". (Indeed, it's a very exciting project, I'm very in favour of it). That doesn't give any reason why I should require SCS to rely on it. In my ideal world, SCS can be installed on vanilla BG with no other mods at all. I compromise as far as the Fixpack, but I don't want to compromise any further.

 

Demi/Mike and DW already said that the next versions of SR and SCS(II) will acknowledge ToBEx and not apply the exe hack if it is installed (thus being compatible with it).

 

First of all, there is no confirmation of this. Mike (and not Demi) spoke of having discussed the possibility of detecting ToBEx and then skip the SR's exe hacks accordingly. DavidW didn't confirm any support to ToBEx at all.

I'm perfectly happy to support it, though not to do the research. If someone tells me how to detect the relevant ToBEx components, I'm happy to do so.

Second, if I had not started this thread, would have they even discussed it?

 

If that's the objective, a thread saying "Can future versions of SCS/SR check for ToBEx, so as to ensure compatibility" would have been more helpful.

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Hmm, I take a fairly pedantic and conservative approach to compatibility when working with TobEx. If you haven't already seen, all hacks flagged with [C] have possible compatibility issues and the specific compatibility issues are stated in brackets. While I discourage the concurrent use of TobEx hacks with mods that directly modify the executable (listed in the readme), I do state the behaviour in the brackets if concurrent use does occur.

 

Let's have some examples:

1. Identical to Spell Revisions 'Cure Sleep Fix' means exactly that - the end result (in this I mean the coding of the virtual EXE image) of the hack is exactly the same as the result of WRITE_ASCIIE coded by Taimon.

2. Different implementation to, and overrides tob_hacks, Spell Revisions also means exactly that - TobEx codes the hack differently, and the coding will actually skip the change in the coding changes introduced by tob_hacks and SR

3. Different implementation to tob_hacks is probably a little more cryptic, because I did not state what happens if you use this hack with tob_hacks. I will clear this up in the next version of TobEx, but generally this is where extreme caution is required because both TobEx and tob_hacks coding changes will occur is used together, with possibly dire (crash) consequences.

 

I performed a reaosnably throrough persual of the executable hacks introduced by SCS and SR (among other mods) for the release of TobEx beta 0012 (2 October 2010), whichever versions of SCS and SR were publicly available at the time, and so TobEx_ini.txt includes compatibility information to that effect. If further hacks are introduced, it would be beneficial to let me know what new changes are made so I can adjust compatibility information accordingly.

 

The reason for discouraging concurrent use is a fact of human error, such as me making a mistake, but then also something unexpected may happen. While I am reasonably sure most of the time nothing unexpected happens (I usually fully reverse entire procedures before coding), one can never be sure, and hence TobEx will always always stay in beta.

 

In relation to the discussion relating a standardised TobEx concept, I support the idea of modifications being standalone because this ultimately simplifies installation for the player. If it makes things easier, I am considering ways in which TobEx can be a little more sensitive to compatibility issues. Any suggestions are welcome.

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I am not asking you to drop the exe hacks in SCS and SR and adopt ToBEx now.

 

I am just saying that (SR was more in my mind than SCS then) in the future there won't be any need for more exe hacks as ToBEx will be able to do that as an (hopefully) estabilished mean to fix and tweak the game engine.

 

The scenario I imagine is one where Demi (but other modders as well) are today choosing suboptimal solutions to problems due to engine limitations or bugs in the opcodes.

 

If ToBEx is the answer to that and is also a fair replacement for existing exe hacks then I ask you: why shouldn't it become an estabilished modding instrument (especially for mods that share the same needs)?

I'm watching this discussion for some time now, and there's one thing I don't understand: why're you keep arguing with DavidW about the SR changes, then it's Demi you should obviously referring to? It's his mod, not DavidW's, after all :thumbsup:

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