Component Idea for the Bandit Camp

[Dermit]

I realize that this idea is somewhat outside the purview of SCS encounter improvements, but considering the alterations you've made to other areas of the game (Kaishas etc.) I thought I'd open the idea to consideration. My thought is this; that the bandit camp setup, while more sensible than past incarnations could do with a little sprucing up.

 

It makes sense that you would have to fight the whole camp, including the tent guards if you decide on a full frontal, no problem there. But the recommended path of guile only means that you get to kill these men first but must then face the entire camp. Now based on my playthroughs a 6 man party is typically around level 5-6 at this point, and short of using a wand of monster summoning or mass fireballs it isn't long before a party is turned to pincushions by the bandits with cheated THACOs. In the past I have only survived this encounter by means of a fighting retreat and a dose of luck. Now while that can be compelling, and while I have no problem with a challenge (I'm sure some players find fighting the whole camp too easy!) it seems to be one that does not allow for much of an array of party compositions, stats or levels.

 

To remedy this I would propose that you work very hard to implement something along the lines of expanded options here. Two basic options spring to mind; First would be a variant on the full frontal assault where instead of going solo once you have the location of the camp you report back to Officer Vai to convince her to lend limited support in taking it out. This would make sense, she is stranded there with her troop and as a member of the Flaming Fist would be obligated to strike at the bandits (though perhaps would need convincing of the tactical viability. Her troop, could be interpreted as being a small squad of Fist fighters 4-6 perhaps with a cleric and the officer herself. Once the player travels back to the bandit camp they could spawn and join in, similar to the allied efforts at Bodhi's lair in BG2. This would give the player a damn cool full scale battle to fight, would be a good RP choice for Paladin types, and would make this option less suicidal.

 

A simple but effective elaboration on the infiltration route would be the possibility to bluff one of the two mercenary leaders into abandoning the camp or standing aside in the event of a battle. Given the dialogue in the camp it seems both groups are at eachother's throats and quite wary for signs of treachery. While one wouldn't expect canny mercenary captains to lend much credence to new arrivals a charismatic or clever PC might be able convince them of some double dealing, either that the Iron Throne intended to betray one of them, or that one side would sell out to the Fist or was being paid more or any other possibility. So potentially one side could be convinced to pull out leaving the players facing half the camp when they make their move. If this were a PnP game you might even have an uber diplomat character provoke the camp into open confrontation laughing all the while, but that would make this a bit too easy.

 

Finally to balance this out and keep the encounter challenging a few creature revisions may be in order. Namely Ardenor Crush and Taugoz could both be given higher levels, the AD&D supplement "Gold and Glory" has Taugoz as an 11th level fighter and Ardenor as 10th level (he could also use something better than standard hobgoblin equipment). IRC the Black Talon bandits there (BANDITC.Cre I think) are listed as 3rd or 5th level yet have a THACO of 14, which is a bit unfair and should be corrected. To compensate a few more Black Talon elites could be thrown about, or some gnolls could be spawned if the alarm goes off to represent the ones in the cave being loosed.

 

Just a thought, and possibly one outside the scope of SCS. Well, what do you think Dave?

[DavidW]

There's some fun ideas there, which I'll think about. But right now let me instead say something about the component as is.

 

I've always assumed that it ought to be very difficult to make a frontal assault on the bandit camp. Vanilla BG1 seems to be built on the assumption that you're probably going to sneak or talk your way in, and certainly that's what I've always done on my (relatively few) playthroughs. But when I wrote SCS I felt that there ought to be more to the end of chapter 3 than just killing the Throne guys and sneaking out again. Hence the Taugosz ambush. I was relaxed when I wrote that about parties adopting the fighting-retreat strategy (that's what seems RP appropriate in any case) though of course I thought that tougher and/or more masochistic parties would duke it out.

 

Once SCS went public, I discovered that (i) very few people like running away; (ii) relatively few people choose non-combat solutions when combat solutions are available. Overall, the substantial majority of players seemed to choose the frontal assault. (I realise that we're considering only that subset of players who'd install difficulty-enhancing mods in the first place.) So I gave more thought to the frontal aspect, and then I ran into the problem you pinpoint: what's the disadvantage of a frontal assault, especially for a player who's going to fight rather than run anyway after leaving Tazok's tent?

 

That's why (as of about four or five version ago, I think) the Iron Throne team don't stand around passively in the tent: they actually come out and attack you. (This also seems more realistic.) That's intended to give the bandits a really significant boost if they're attacked frontally, and conversely, to give the player who sneaks in some kind of compensation. (And it makes a fairly major difference, I think: timing is everything in BG battles, and fighting two groups in sequence, with a chance to heal in between, is much easier than fighting them at the same time.)

 

None of this addresses the overall difficulty of the encounter. For what it's worth, though, my impression (mostly from the Bioware boards) is that the bandit camp is takeable (even frontally) by a reasonably balanced party; that being the case, I'm not sure the component needs toning down. As always, though, I'd welcome more opinions and feedback.

 

One quick comment on your proposal. The logic is that it's too difficult, so X needs to be done to make it easier, whereupon it's too easy, so monsters need to be beefed up to make it hard enough. I think in general it's best to avoid this kind of arms race. The idea would presumably be to add extra stuff until it's the right difficulty, but to avoid overshooting.

 

And just quickly on cheating bandits: I didn't actually realise they did this. I'll have to give it some thought: generally I try to fix vanilla-game cheating.

[Dakk]

IRC the Black Talon bandits there (BANDITC.Cre I think) are listed as 3rd or 5th level yet have a THACO of 14, which is a bit unfair and should be corrected

And just quickly on cheating bandits: I didn't actually realise they did this. I'll have to give it some thought: generally I try to fix vanilla-game cheating.

A THAC0 of 14 for a level 3 Fighter should not be out of the question, and surely not for a level 5?

Let's assume they are all Fighters (as opposed to Archers, for I take it they count as a Ranger kit and would hence be "Fallen"), then:

Level 3

Base THAC0 18

Dex 16 / 17, Ranged THAC0 adjustment +1 / +2

Specialized in Bows + 1 / Mastery in Bows +2

= 14-16 THAC0

Level 5

Base THAC0 16

Dex 16 / 17, Ranged THAC0 adjustment +1 / +2

Specialized in Bows + 1 / Mastery in Bows +2

= 12-14 THAC0

 

With the "True Grandmastery Tweak" THAC0 would even be +1 if Mastery is assumed. Am I missing something?

[Dermit]

One quick comment on your proposal. The logic is that it's too difficult, so X needs to be done to make it easier, whereupon it's too easy, so monsters need to be beefed up to make it hard enough. I think in general it's best to avoid this kind of arms race. The idea would presumably be to add extra stuff until it's the right difficulty, but to avoid overshooting.

 

This is true, and while I primarily articulated my proposal in terms of difficulty what prompted this is my more subjective perception of how interesting this encounter is. While doable, I've found fighting through everyone while getting pincushioned more frustrating than engaging. Especially when in the early BG portion the player has little to rely on other than good AC and a couple of spells to survive . Moreover I've always thought that this area was a bit wasted in vanilla, all that dialogue and hints to go in stealthy and it never much mattered (in fact it was just as easy and more profitable to just kill everyone w/o SCS). My suggestions for difficulty compensations are more for the other SCS players who I suspect like the punishment.

 

I just would like it to be difficult and fun and cool please.

 

Granted I don't know Infinity Engine modding, outside of a cursory familiarity with game files. Instead I tend to think of it as if I were running a tabletop game, in which case my PCs would much rather make Vai do some of the leg work or try their non combat skills out, even if it meant less loot or XP from combat (well some of them would).

 

With the "True Grandmastery Tweak" THAC0 would even be +1 if Mastery is assumed. Am I missing something?

 

Hmm looking at the BG resource, and assuming it is unchanged in BGT, BANDITC.cre is a 3rd level fighter with base THACO 13, a Dex of 16, and 3 in Bow and Sword proficiencies, and considering the best a 3rd level could have is specialization that does seem a bit high!

[Dakk]

With the "True Grandmastery Tweak" THAC0 would even be +1 if Mastery is assumed. Am I missing something?

Hmm looking at the BG resource, and assuming it is unchanged in BGT, BANDITC.cre is a 3rd level fighter with base THACO 13 and a Dex of 16, and considering the best a 3rd level could have is specialization that does seem a bit high!

Yes, THAC0 13 for a level 3, DEX 16, Fighter is too much (should be 15, a somewhat significant cheat). Do note though that BG2, and therefore BGT, does NOT adhere to the BG1 rule that you can only put 2 stars in a proficiency at creation! Therefore a level 3 fighter could easily have Mastery and High Mastery (actually Grand Mastery, but assuming no melee-capabilities is a bit of a stretch), so +2 is not hard to justify. And even in BG1, a level 3 Fighter could have Mastery; 2 stars at creation and another one at level 3.

 

I wouldn't mind having SCS affect it's no-cheating-CRE's policy nonetheless.

[Dermit]

Do note though that BG2, and therefore BGT, does NOT adhere to the BG1 rule that you can only put 2 stars in a proficiency at creation! Therefore a level 3 fighter could easily have Mastery and High Mastery (actually Grand Mastery, but assuming no melee-capabilities is a bit of a stretch), so +2 is not hard to justify. And even in BG1, a level 3 Fighter could have Mastery; 2 stars at creation and another one at level 3.

 

That is true, but I assume that is because in BGII a created character would have been at level 7 or so, and there was no need for restrictions on proficiency allotment (which carries over to BGT/Tutu unintentionally).

 

Of course all that is moot because according to Near Infinity they gave these guys 3 in Bow, 3 in Sword, 2 in Spear and 1 in Missile Weapons!

 

Hmm, saving throws are a bit off too. Makes me wonder how common this is in the much less fixed up BGI?

[phordicus]

bioware played pretty fast and loose with CRE stats, basically arbitrarily moving them around according to need/desire. it's all over the entire BG series like kudzu.

 

re: vai. i love the idea except...

 

would the information you have -- one letter listing two possible targets and another letter connecting the bandits to the iron crisis -- be enough to convince her to close shop and take her troops north? she's supposed to be guarding from potential southern threats. abandoning her post might need more incentive than a couple of notes and Charname's word.

 

if not, assuming she needs confirmation of the camp location, can the lengthy journey back and forth be justified either strategically or RP-wise? by the time you've scouted the camp and returned to Beregost, they've surely noticed that Tranzig is also dead/missing and that either new recruits are missing/AWOL or more and more bandits have been slaughtered between B and FAI. i can't imagine them sitting on their hands the entire time. bandit camps are necessarily impermanent things.

[Dermit]

would the information you have -- one letter listing two possible targets and another letter connecting the bandits to the iron crisis -- be enough to convince her to close shop and take her troops north? she's supposed to be guarding from potential southern threats. abandoning her post might need more incentive than a couple of notes and Charname's word.

 

I thought she was already trying to get her contingent back to Baldur's Gate, but wasn't going to risk being ambushed and harried the entire way (hence the bounties). Being able to strike at the camp itself would be supportive and then some to this aim. It would certainly have its risks, but with the support of an adventuring group and the element of surprise it would be hard to justify inaction. Sure it would take some convincing, but Charname has some help there, first his group's reputation as Heroes of Nashkel would stand them in good stead, after all Vai already sought help based on that, and there are several bits of info to solidify the claim (Tranzig letters, confession of the bandit north of Beregost, possible scouting) and a rep and stat check could seal the deal. Above all it gives this whole Vai thing more of a purpose than acting as a trading post for scalps.

 

if not, assuming she needs confirmation of the camp location, can the lengthy journey back and forth be justified either strategically or RP-wise? by the time you've scouted the camp and returned to Beregost, they've surely noticed that Tranzig is also dead/missing and that either new recruits are missing/AWOL or more and more bandits have been slaughtered between B and FAI. i can't imagine them sitting on their hands the entire time. bandit camps are necessarily impermanent things.

 

No denying that, but considering that the game is already full of such inconsistencies (Kill half Sarevok's acolytes and come back later, loot and kill in the Mines then hike back to res. a teamate etc) it wouldn't be too jarring. Still one could imagine anything short of an attack on the camp being passed over. Tranzig is a traveling contact and could be out of touch for weeks at a time, bandits could fall in skirmishes with caravans, the Fist or any of the denizens of the Wood of Sharp Teeth (spiders, druids et. al.). Showing up to the camp, going AWOL and then coming back would be hard to justify though.

[phordicus]

if i were putting in the work to script this, here's what i'd do:

 

- time limit to initiate: you have to convince Vai within (travel time from mines + 2 days) or the trail becomes cold. the Throne is already riding their asses for production to step up which makes me think that timely communications is a priority for them. using examples of other poor plot implementation doesn't convince me to follow suit. if i were adding in content, i'd have to do it properly.

 

- what convinces Vai? minimum of bandit scalps to indicate combat worthiness? minimum reputation? CHA check? extra dialog? or even better, perhaps tweaking the Tranzig encounter so you can actually take him to Vai for interrogation. he does try to bargain for his life in that fight already.

 

- at the camp itself, the party alone can get in via subterfuge, stealth, or guerilla tactics. with a contingent of soldiers accompanying them, none of that will fly. they'll have ambushes and traps everywhere. their fire lanes will be ideal. iow, with the Tent guys + chill + gnolls + bandits, this could/should move into the top 5 as far as toughest battles is concerned (even higher if you consider that being constrained indoors usually artificially inflates an encounter's difficulty).

[Dermit]

This is all hypothetical of course, unless I learn how to do this myself. Anyway..

 

- time limit to initiate: you have to convince Vai within (travel time from mines + 2 days) or the trail becomes cold. the Throne is already riding their asses for production to step up which makes me think that timely communications is a priority for them. using examples of other poor plot implementation doesn't convince me to follow suit. if i were adding in content, i'd have to do it properly.

 

Mines, do you mean the Nashkel Mines? I can see Tranzig moving on quickly, but why would the Bandit Camp pick up location after losing contact? Either way, while it could make sense, it seems like an unnecessary complication.

 

- what convinces Vai? minimum of bandit scalps to indicate combat worthiness? minimum reputation? CHA check? extra dialog? or even better, perhaps tweaking the Tranzig encounter so you can actually take him to Vai for interrogation. he does try to bargain for his life in that fight already.

 

I'd say reaction check and a little bit of extended dialogue at minimum, hauling Tranzig in would be cool though. Personally I'd just as soon do away with the whole scalps thing, it just seems bizarre for Vai to be asking for human scalps as proof (how does she know they are bandits), and a bit culturally inappropriate.

 

- at the camp itself, the party alone can get in via subterfuge, stealth, or guerilla tactics. with a contingent of soldiers accompanying them, none of that will fly. they'll have ambushes and traps everywhere. their fire lanes will be ideal. iow, with the Tent guys + chill + gnolls + bandits, this could/should move into the top 5 as far as toughest battles is concerned (even higher if you consider that being constrained indoors usually artificially inflates an encounter's difficulty).

 

That's true, though it would depend on how large Vai's contingent is. A small group could still get to the camp unseen especially with a scout leading them. After all it is a thick wood, and limited mercenary manpower would indicate lightly patrolled at that. On the other hand these are professionals and would have to be pretty unlucky to get caught off guard. Basically I think anything could be done with it, but from a gameplay perspective I'd rather not be disarming traps outside in the middle of battle.

 

Like you say this could end up being a tough encounter, and fairly unique among them. While most BGII/TOB and late BGI rely on powerful monsters or extended fights with spellcasters this would be a pretty straight up match with a bunch of low level mooks and a few higher level leaders against a mid level party and back up.