Bards

[leania]

First of all I really want to apologize with leania. For some reason I completely forgot to reply on this topic...sorry.

 

I was keeping discussions on many classes on hold for a reason but I actually have plans for almost any kit at this point. Anyway, I'm falling asleep right now, I'll post a more decent reply tomorrow.

 

Ah, thank you for the reply. Honestly, I've forgot it, either.

 

Actually my ideas, I've suggested long times ago, don't fit demi's concept anymore imo, which provides many active abilities according to the growth of classes. Bards would need to obtain several abilities such as basic alchemy or something like that as Thieves would.

[Demivrgvs]

Actually my ideas, I've suggested long times ago, don't fit demi's concept anymore imo, which provides many active abilities according to the growth of classes. Bards would need to obtain several abilities such as basic alchemy or something like that as Thieves would.

I'm not sure what you mean with "don't fit demi's concept anymore imo, which provides many active abilities according to the growth of classes". I actually think KR bards will look quite similar to what you suggested there.

 

True Bard

I'm still not sure about splitting Bard's Song into multiple songs simply because then I would have to make kits have multiple songs too, but I do see the benefits of it, and with some more efforts I guess it can be done. True Bard's songs might include:

- the standard vanilla-like Inspire Courage is obvious (a scaling +x to hit rolls and saves - immunity to fear and charm could be included at high levels imo)

- Countersong has always been there since AD&D. PnP version is much more limited (immunity to sound based effects such as hostile songs or sound-based spells such as Command, Power Words and eventual SR's Soundburst) than NWN's one (mass magic resistance) but I'd still probably vote for sticking to PnP.

- 3E had Song of Freedom (SR's Break Enchantment on all allies) but I'm not fully sure of it because it overlaps with bard's spellcasting (he can already cast Break Enchantment itself) and to a lesser extent his base song too. I don't know if it fits but I'd probably prefer a Free Action-like effect as it would at least offer something the bard don't already have.

- while 3E Bard had no "hostile" songs, Pathfinder has Dirge of Doom (a fear inducing song) but if you guys really manage to persuade me to implement an "hostile" song I'd pick something more appropriate like Arda's suggested Lullaby (a sleep inducing song) for the True Bard and keep things like fear for the Jester.

- Pathfinder replaced Song of Freedom with Soothing Performance (a healing song) but I'm not sure about it. On one hand it would hugely enforce the role of "jack of all trades" otoh it could be a really cheap way to get infinite healing (though by the time you reach 12th level healing should be much less of a problem). This would probably fit the Skald too.

- I guess the HLA song would obviously be Mass Suggestion (aka mass charm)

 

I'd love to implement an original bard-only spellbook but I'm not sure if blocking certain schools is doable (the bard should really not get Necromancy and Evocation imo). I could prevent scroll reading of those schools, but at character creation the Bard would still be able to pick all spell. I could auto-add a bunch spells like vanilla's Avenger (e.g. sound related spells such as Silence) but I'm not sure, especially if I cannot restrict the already huge arsenal. On a side note, I never really decided if I like bards getting healing spells (a la 3E) or not (as per AD&D).

 

Bards casting spells in light armors is a must, and it will be there thanks to Arda. I don't know what to do with chain mails instead...considering they can wear them shouldn't we allow bards to cast spells while wearing chain mail too? Mmm...

 

 

Blade

I'd simply refine vanilla's class, which is a kinda good concept and a very powerful kit. I still like my idea of making it "sing while fighting". Consider it my take on PnP Weapon Display.

 

Ironically, AD&D Blade could use Called Shots with thrown weapons, but I would not go for it.

 

 

Jester

Sticking very close to AD&D Jester is enough to get a really great kit imo. He could get a couple of good hostile songs such as Distraction (pretty much Rogue Rebalancing base song) and something like pathfinder's Dirge of Doom. An eventual HLA song could probably be a sort of "mass feeblemind".

 

AD&D also had a Taunt ability (the one Grammarsalad was talking about) which we might actually implement quite easily as a targeted ability (single target must save vs. spell or enter a berserk state).

 

Jester's luck (+1 luck to all rolls) and Chaotic Mind (within PnP this is a scaling huge bonus against all mind affecting enchantment effects) will be included too.

 

Jester's drawbacks are kinda obvious imo: no "buffing" songs, no chain mail (I'd probably restrict hide armors too - within IR they are quite good), thief-only light weapons, no shields.

 

 

Skald

Well, leania was spot on on this kit. I'd replace vanilla's permanent +1 to hit/dmg with the ability to get weapon specialization. Within AD&D they can use almost any weapon (though he is forced to spend prof points on broad swords, handaxes, battleaxes and spears) and can use shields (yes for light and medium shields imo - no for tower shield). Within PnP they can also wear heavier armor (up to bronze plate, which probably is the quivalent of our splint mail) but I'm actually against it (not even 1PP has heavy armored bard avatars). I'd make them able to wear helmets though.

 

In terms of songs, if we really need multiple choices then we might split his vanilla-like War Chant (+x hit/dmg/AC) into two slightly different chants or we could simply add the above mentioned healing song.

 

Skald's drawback can be the lack of "utility" songs, and reduced spellcasting abilities (-1 to casting speed is fine; if necessary to balance his combat skills we could also reduce his spell slots per day, but I'm not sure it's needed).

[leania]

Actually my ideas, I've suggested long times ago, don't fit demi's concept anymore imo, which provides many active abilities according to the growth of classes. Bards would need to obtain several abilities such as basic alchemy or something like that as Thieves would.

I'm not sure what you mean with "don't fit demi's concept anymore imo, which provides many active abilities according to the growth of classes". I actually think KR bards will look quite similar to what you suggested there.

 

I apologize my poor description. What I mentioned was that Bards would need something more in addition to their spell casting/song abilities as you added several new abilities in Fighters, e.g., True Fighter has Called Shot ability, Barbarian has cleave ability and so on.

 

The reason is that I've personally felt those, spell casting and song abilities (including a little thieving ability, pick pocket), are not enough to characterize Bards classes.Fighter/Mage is generally better than Bards in combat as you know. The F/M have higher apr, thac0, spells slots, etc. Only the Bard songs are the unique ability of Bards in vanilla, and even those are not so powerful enough because Bards can perform nothing while singing song.

 

Some extra thieving skill would be required for Bards in order to make Bards much more like Rogue imo. Furthermore, Lingering Song ability should be able to obtain at lower level. Finally, some middle-level abilities like alchemy, which we've discussed in Thief thread, would be good for Bards imo, the skills might need to be differentiated from Thieves' though. Or, some special abilities like Blade's offensive/defensive spin, would be considered for True Bard, Jester and Skald.

 

And I think the THAC0 table might need to be modified/revised... Thieves have too low THAC0 imo.

 

 

And I perfectly agree with your suggestions/descriptions about the other parts.

[Grammarsalad]

looks good. Too bad about the spellbook snafu. I completely agree that both evocation and necromancy don't fit.

 

Edit: looking again at leania's post (re more "rogue skill") is it possible to give them pick locks?

[Ardanis]

Edit: looking again at leania's post (re more "rogue skill") is it possible to give them pick locks?

I'm quite certain that if you have some points in it, the character will be able to open locks and disarm traps. Even better, bard + monk will be able to combine efforts to remove traps

[Jarno Mikkola]

- Pathfinder replaced Song of Freedom with Soothing Performance (a healing song) but I'm not sure about it. On one hand it would hugely enforce the role of "jack of all trades" otoh it could be a really cheap way to get infinite healing (though by the time you reach 12th level healing should be much less of a problem).

Every game today has these ... you know why... cause of smaller party member accounts and the facts that the game gender has scaled to the larger scales ... well as you know there's no Fighter, Mage, Thief and Cleric only classes anymore. There's tons of different roles a char can fill in.

Now the reason why that matters is that Regeneration needs to be available to more classes in the today's environment(well games), and in my view that's a bad choice ... because this is after all a classic game still meaning you need to have those roles filled by something and a bard shouldn't fill in for the Clerics/Druids role as a primary healer as the regeneration timers are far from the 8 hour / 1 hp with a healing song.

This same can be seen in the summoned monster HPs ... but that's a different subject.

[Demivrgvs]

I've personally felt those, spell casting and song abilities (including a little thieving ability, pick pocket), are not enough to characterize Bards classes.Fighter/Mage is generally better than Bards in combat as you know. The F/M have higher apr, thac0, spells slots, etc. Only the Bard songs are the unique ability of Bards in vanilla, and even those are not so powerful enough because Bards can perform nothing while singing song.

A F/M is supposed to be more powerful in combat imo (not so much compared to a Blade though), the Bard should excel in the supporting role.

 

That being said, we are granting the Bard better song(s) and allowing him to cast spells without penalties while wearing armors is a HUGE boost imo. Not to mention:

Some extra thieving skill would be required for Bards in order to make Bards much more like Rogue imo. Furthermore, Lingering Song ability should be able to obtain at lower level.

I forgot to mention it but yes, I'm giving them Lingering Song feat early on, which is a buff so great that I actually fear it could make bards too powerful.

 

Finally, some middle-level abilities like alchemy, which we've discussed in Thief thread, would be good for Bards imo, the skills might need to be differentiated from Thieves' though.

I'm being persuaded to actually remove Alchemy from Thieves (they might get something similar, but not the ability to create potions) and keep it for Bards (as per PnP).

 

And I think the THAC0 table might need to be modified/revised... Thieves have too low THAC0 imo.

This is something we decided to keep on hold, but I indeed have a revised thac0 table (pretty much 3E progression) for all classes in my internal build, and I agree that rogues really deserve a better thac0 imo.

 

Edit: looking again at leania's post (re more "rogue skill") is it possible to give them pick locks?

I'm quite certain that if you have some points in it, the character will be able to open locks and disarm traps. Even better, bard + monk will be able to combine efforts to remove traps

They wouldn't even need the Monk considering they have a low level spell to detect traps.

 

Anyway, are you sure about it? It's worth taking a look, though I'm not sure about allowing them to disarm trap (it would badly hurt the thief's role in the party imo). I can more easily be persuaded to give them lock picking, but they already have a spell for that too...

[Grammarsalad]

Edit: looking again at leania's post (re more "rogue skill") is it possible to give them pick locks?

I'm quite certain that if you have some points in it, the character will be able to open locks and disarm traps. Even better, bard + monk will be able to combine efforts to remove traps

 

I tried this about a year ago and it didn't work. The "pick pocket"icon didn't change to "pick lock"when the cursor was placed over a locked door. I tried to use the "enable thief button opcode" to no avail.

 

But I'm not much of a modder. Heres hoping that the experts can figure our a way to do it!

[Mike1072]

Bards casting spells in light armors is a must, and it will be there thanks to Arda. I don't know what to do with chain mails instead...considering they can wear them shouldn't we allow bards to cast spells while wearing chain mail too? Mmm...

I think the simplest solution is to say Bard spellcasting is different from Wizard/Sorcerer spellcasting and therefore they can cast in armor without hindrance, or that they've studied how to effortlessly cast spells while encumbered in exchange for reduced arcane potency. You'd need to ensure they don't take over the roles of the mages: slower spellcasting progression and fewer spells, caster level penalty, or something similar.

[Kalindor]

I very much like the idea of bards being able to cast spells in armor, although chain mail might be a bit much early on. If it's possible, perhaps have the bards be able to cast in leather/hide and have an HLA that grants them the ability to cast in chain mail later.

 

As appealing as it is to me, I vote no for bards disarming traps due to Demi's concern that it would evaporate the thief's appeal to a certain degree. I would also not be in favor of bards being able to pick locks either for the same reason.

 

Agree on the matter of rogues receiving improved THAC0, but the Swashbuckler's bonuses may need to be reexamined if that occurs.

 

*Edit: I agree with Mike that obviously bards should retain the much slower spell progression and inability to cast level 9 spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

You'd need to ensure they don't take over the roles of the mages: slower spellcasting progression and fewer spells, caster level penalty, or something similar.

Well that's as easy as tweaking one .2da table ... in this case the mxsplbrd.2da . PS, don't forget to make it able to account all cases ... so take the table to lvl 50.

 

I very much like the idea of bards being able to cast spells in armor, although chain mail might be a bit much early on. If it's possible, perhaps have the bards be able to cast in leather/hide and have an HLA that grants them the ability to cast in chain mail later.

Erhm, and who would take such a perk as you can already cast all your spells in Elven Chain with bonuses to casting speed etc ?!?

[Kalindor]

Erhm, and who would take such a perk as you can already cast all your spells in Elven Chain with bonuses to casting speed etc ?!?

 

That's a good point. I suppose it would only be useful if it were an HLA to allow casting in plate armor available to Skalds (presuming they were able to wear heavy armor).

[Ardanis]

Bards casting spells in light armors is a must, and it will be there thanks to Arda. I don't know what to do with chain mails instead...considering they can wear them shouldn't we allow bards to cast spells while wearing chain mail too? Mmm...

I wouldn't bother, but it is also possible to reduce the chainmail casting failure for bards. I highly doubt many, if anyone, would care though, so let's pretend 3e has some solid reason for leather only.

 

I very much like the idea of bards being able to cast spells in armor, although chain mail might be a bit much early on. If it's possible, perhaps have the bards be able to cast in leather/hide and have an HLA that grants them the ability to cast in chain mail later.

Sadly, can't be done in any reasonable way.

[Mike1072]

Bards casting spells in light armors is a must, and it will be there thanks to Arda. I don't know what to do with chain mails instead...considering they can wear them shouldn't we allow bards to cast spells while wearing chain mail too? Mmm...

I wouldn't bother, but it is also possible to reduce the chainmail casting failure for bards. I highly doubt many, if anyone, would care though, so let's pretend 3e has some solid reason for leather only.

I think bards should be encouraged to wear chainmail; they're perhaps the only class that caps out at that armor level.

 

I suggested the "free spellcasting" idea because otherwise this feature becomes complicated to describe. If it only applies to some of the armor they can wear, then you have a hassle to deal with in the arcane casting-in-armor component. Do bards take 2 off the casting speed penalties so they can cast for free in leather and cast in chainmail at +1, or do they subvert the system, casting for free in leather and casting at +3 in chainmail to retain the original tradeoff? Same deal with the spellcasting failure component.

[Kalindor]

I suggested the "free spellcasting" idea because otherwise this feature becomes complicated to describe. If it only applies to some of the armor they can wear, then you have a hassle to deal with in the arcane casting-in-armor component. Do bards take 2 off the casting speed penalties so they can cast for free in leather and cast in chainmail at +1, or do they subvert the system, casting for free in leather and casting at +3 in chainmail to retain the original tradeoff? Same deal with the spellcasting failure component.

 

I would have no problem with them casting penalty-free in any armor they wear if we consider their spells to be song-like, requiring no gestures. This would obviously not make much sense without a discreet bard-only spellbook. Demi mentioned this but it seems like it would require an unacceptable amount of effort.

 

If it can be done, I like your idea of a general reduction in casting speed penalties for bards casting in armor. Perhaps this could start at +1 and increase with level up to +3. However, not everyone will be using IR (especially if it's not BG:EE compatible). What happens in the absence of IR?