Demivrgvs Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Agree on the matter of rogues receiving improved THAC0, but the Swashbuckler's bonuses may need to be reexamined if that occurs.Swashbuckler's to hit bonus (+1 at 1st level, and +1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17) will be tailor made to make them get the same thac0 progression of a fighter as per PnP (if using my revised thac0 table - aka 3E's one). Ironically they end up getting that +1 to hit at the same levels thieves normally get +1 to backstab multiplier. I agree with Mike that obviously bards should retain the much slower spell progression and inability to cast level 9 spells.I obviously agree with Mike too, I actually gave it for granted that KR's bards will keep vanilla's slow spellcasting progression. Mages reach a new spell level every 2 levels, bards need 3 levels instead (the only exception is between L2 to L4 to get 2nd level spells - but I can easily change that and make them get 2nd level spells at level 5). KR's bards will still "only" get 6th level spells (I previously thought about allowing 7th level spells, but I think priests deserve that one more spell level). Regarding spellcasting in armor, I agree again with Mike, we should just make bards ignore spellcasting while wearing all the armors they can use. This also ensure we can make the component work with or without IR. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 No spellcasting hindrances for bards then. KR's bards will still "only" get 6th level spells (I previously thought about allowing 7th level spells, but I think priests deserve that one more spell level).Priests have better HP and armor, and likely more spell slots too. Channeling is more or less an equivalent of bard's misc abilities, while Turn Undead is probably weaker than songs. I see quite a parity between the two. Link to comment
Kalindor Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Agree, I think it would help the bards' case in late game if they eventually received level 7 spells. Lingering Song may make them appealing enough as it is though if the songs become useful enough. Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Actually I see no problem Bards reaching the level 9th spells at all... at levels around 26 to 38.... after all they can scribe those spell to their books, why not able to memorize them, later than a mage? They are a single class unlike the mage that can dual to and from ! Or multiclass. What comes to the HLAs, that's why you have the level requirements build in the table. Link to comment
yarpen Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Well. I came up with a neat idea in terms of how Bardsong could look like in 'Revised' version. It includes multiple Songs so maybe this is sorta' breakout from vanilla - but I believe that without this solution, it's really hard to come up with single song that isn't either useless or broken. Bard should be jack-of-all trades, coming up with solutions to weirdest situations. So, here's my implementation of Bardsong for True Bard. Bardsong: Bard can use this ability to start his performance which is the combination of his talent, dedication and semi-magical powers that makes his allies benefit from it and occasionally, awe his opponents. Bardsong's effects depend on Bard's level. Level 1: Inspire Allies: +1 bonus to Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls and all Saving Throws. Protection from non-magical Fear. Level 4: Wanderer's Melody: +2 to Luck (+2 to Saving Throws, +10 to all Thieving Skills), +10 to Lore, +1 Movement Speed, 1 Hit Point per Turn Regeneration, Protection from Fatigue. Only out of combat. Level 7: Countersong: protection from sound-based effects. Level 9: Alluring Song: opponents who fail Saving Throw vs. spells (+2 modifier) become unable to perform any action for next round. Level 11: Improved Inspire Allies: +2 bonus to Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls and all Saving Throws. Grants protection from Fear (magical-induced as well). Level 14: Improved Wanderer's Melody: +4 to Luck (+4 to Saving Throws, +20 to all Thieving Skills), +20 Lore, +2 Movement Speed, 2 Hit Points per Turn Regeneration. Only out of combat. Level 17: Improved Countersong: protection from sound-based effects. Additionaly has 50% chance per round of singing to dispel Charm, Confusion, Berserk and Sleep. Level 19: Improved Alluring Song: opponents who fail their Saving Throw vs. Spells become unable to perform any action for next 2 rounds. The system looks similiar to the one used in IWD, but there are some differences. Generalized Names: makes songs fit a lot more to Sword Coast and variety of kits Bards have. In addition, it gave me a free hand in terms of upgrading certain songs. Inspire Allies: your generic bless song. Okay bonuses and fear protection. That's what you expect from bard in terms of vanilla song. Wanderer's Melody: in IWD there was Tymora's Song which granted Luck bonuses only. I wanted something more. Wanderer's Song is a good thing to launch when you're in any situation out of combat. You can move faster through the locations. Your team's thief skills become increased. You dispel fatigue effects from your teammates and when stepping on a random trap you have higher chance to survive. I hope it works when journeying between locations so you don't get tired and you regenerate your health. Countersong should grant the same immunities Namarra does. Being Charmed by dryads, Soundblast, Commands, Power Words. Those are rare situations, but well... someone should have an answer for those. Alluring Song: I'm not sure about it, but high-level bard should get something to disable his foes. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Sorry for leaving this topic unanswered, I just had too many things in my mind at once. Anyway, your ideas are quite interesting, much like Arda's ones in the first post. I wasn't particularly interested in giving Bards multiple songs, and taking into account kits (should they have 1 unique songs or more?) it could be a pain to handle, not to mention very time consuming, but I'm indeed open to it. Anyway, rest assured I'll do whatever I can to make even the True Bard a cool and effectively viable class to pick, even if that means spending ages upon it like we are doing for the Berserker. The only problem is that I don't know when I'll be able to actually work on bards considering we still have to work on various warriors (though I have high hopes on Cavalier and rangers quickly reaching a good status now) and then finally start messing with thieves (the True Thief looks really promising). Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I think Bards should get unique spells. I understand that it would be a nightmare to give them their own list, but I think it would be cool if they had some unique spells 'already in their spellbook'. E.g. like a 'lingering melody' that extends song durations Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 It won't be a nightmare, but more like impossible to prevent them to not gain the wizard spells. Hmm, my current view on bard is that they should get more spells, as long as those spells are of lower origin than wizards... mxsplbrd.2da: 2DA V1.0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 7 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 8 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 9 5 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 9 10 6 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 10 11 7 5 2 1 0 0 0 0 11 11 8 6 2 1 0 0 0 0 12 12 8 7 3 2 1 0 0 0 13 12 9 7 4 2 1 0 0 0 14 12 9 8 5 3 2 1 0 0 15 12 10 8 6 4 2 1 0 0 16 12 10 9 6 5 3 1 0 0 17 12 10 9 7 6 3 2 0 0 18 12 10 9 7 6 4 2 0 0 19 12 11 9 7 7 4 2 1 0 20 12 11 10 7 7 5 3 1 0 21 12 11 10 8 7 5 3 1 0 22 12 11 10 8 7 5 3 1 0 23 12 12 10 8 7 6 4 2 0 24 12 12 10 8 7 6 4 2 0 25 12 12 11 8 8 6 4 2 0 26 12 12 11 9 8 6 5 2 0 27 12 12 11 9 8 6 5 3 0 28 12 12 11 9 8 6 5 3 1 29 12 12 11 9 9 7 5 3 1 30 12 12 12 9 9 7 6 3 1 31 12 12 12 10 9 7 6 4 1 32 12 12 12 10 9 7 6 4 1 33 12 12 12 10 9 7 6 4 1 34 12 12 12 10 9 7 6 4 1 35 12 12 12 10 10 7 6 5 1 36 12 12 12 10 10 7 7 5 1 37 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 5 1 38 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 5 1 39 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 6 2 40 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 6 2 41 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 6 2 42 12 12 12 11 10 7 7 6 2 43 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 6 2 44 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 45 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 46 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 47 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 48 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 49 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 2 50 12 12 12 12 10 7 7 7 3 VS. mxsplwiz.2da: 2DA V1.0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 5 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 7 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 8 8 4 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 9 8 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 10 8 5 3 2 2 0 0 0 0 11 8 5 3 2 2 1 0 0 0 12 8 6 4 3 2 2 0 0 0 13 8 6 4 3 2 2 0 0 0 14 8 7 4 3 2 2 1 0 0 15 8 7 5 3 3 2 2 0 0 16 8 8 5 4 3 2 2 1 0 17 8 8 5 4 3 2 2 2 0 18 8 8 6 4 3 3 2 2 1 19 8 8 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 20 8 8 6 5 4 3 2 2 2 21 8 8 7 5 4 3 2 2 2 22 8 8 7 5 4 3 3 2 2 23 8 8 7 5 4 3 3 2 2 24 8 8 8 6 4 4 3 2 2 25 8 8 8 6 5 4 3 3 2 26 8 8 8 6 5 4 3 3 2 27 8 8 8 6 5 4 3 3 2 28 8 8 8 7 5 4 3 3 3 29 8 8 8 7 5 4 4 3 3 30 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 3 31 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 3 32 8 8 8 8 6 5 4 3 3 33 8 8 8 8 6 5 4 4 3 34 8 8 8 8 6 5 4 4 3 35 8 8 8 8 6 5 4 4 3 36 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 37 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 4 38 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 4 39 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 4 40 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 4 40 8 8 8 8 8 6 5 5 4 41 8 8 8 8 8 6 5 5 4 42 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 43 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 44 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 4 45 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 5 46 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 5 47 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 5 48 8 8 8 8 8 8 6 6 5 49 8 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 50 8 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 5 Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Heh, I actually mod my bards to get 1 at first level. (Wiz and sorc's have 3). Works well for me. (though, obvously, I have few options until they are improved) EDIT: It does seem wrong for them to get 8th and 9th level spells though... Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 EDIT: It does seem wrong for them to get 8th and 9th level spells though... Why the cheese ? They get to write the spell in their spell books at level 1, so why not give them the ability to actually gain them at some point ? My table gives that at levels 19 and 28... and when you make the xp table the exact same for mages and rogues, levels of which the players get HLA's usually(pass the 3 000 000xp), I see no point in not giving them that right. Link to comment
yarpen Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'd love to have 8-9 level spells available through HLA. I mean, HLA "Access to 8th level spells". Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'd like to have more time for discussing this but I can only say: - I'd really love to give bards a slightly more unique spellbook but afaik it is not possible. All I could do is add them a bunch of already memorized bard-only spells, but I'm not sure about it because I fear it would feel kinda odd. - KR's bards will never get 8th and 9th level spells, they don't even need to be buffed up to 7th level spells imo. KR's Bards will be able to cast spells while wearing armors, they get extremely better thac0 via revised tables, improved and eventually multiple songs, etc. Mages don't get any of these things, on top of having d4 HDs instead of d6, much more limited weapon selection, etc. Granting Horrid Wilting, WotB, Chain Contingency, Time Stop, etc to bards is just like granting Grandmastery in any weapon to mages, it's completely wrong for both the class receiving the benefit and the class losing the prerogative. Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'd love to have 8-9 level spells available through HLA. I mean, HLA "Access to 8th level spells". That's not doable. - KR's bards will never get 8th and 9th level spells... Ha, how naive you are... by just overwriting the .2da table, it's easy to do... But lets cut the armor situation... the mage gets the best magic user armor, in other words, the +2/+4 reduction to casting time. Its better than what a bard can get. And if you have time stop at casting time 5, it's better than what the bard can ever do with his armor :lol: . Same goes for all the high level spells as long as the mage gets more of them than the bard which the tables above should show... The bard's thac0 is not that good that you can replace the mage + fighter pair with two bards. And what comes to the d6 dice, the BGEE has special sorcerer kit that get's d6 and he looses only 1 spell memorization per level, and he gains a lot of other abilities(dragon disciple)... and well, it will soon to be consumed by the first few melee hits that get hit when rushing to melee with the "better thac0". I would really like the bards songs to actually make a difference, but it's usually too passive to actually play a role in a battle, after all you can't really do a lot without longer song effects... same thing goes to clerics, the turning might help in one case out of 20, but rest of the time it's totally useless power to even have. And don't forget that some of the mages actually have a +1 to all spells memorizable from being a specialist or even +2 from the cheat item(in other words; Edwin +3), without IR. PS; the though behind the tables above is that the mage levels up to the same level as the bard, due to the xptable.2da I have not shown, but the paladin based xp table is close to it, so there's about ~2 500 000xp between when the mage gets to use the Time Stop(or any 9th lvl spell) and a bard gets to do the same. This is actually close to when the Multiclass-mage gets to do it too, so. etc to bards is just like granting Grandmastery in any weapon to mages, it's completely wrong for both the class receiving the benefit and the class losing the prerogative. Well, I have played a mage with a Grand Mastery in bow(actually a Fighter dualed to a mage, I forgot the dual level, but it was around 4 to 7), in Icewind Dale, and in the end, the bow becomes useless as the mages thac0 sucks so bad, but it did help at a point or two by not making him totally useless in battle without a propreate spell to cast... much like the bards other skills should before the party enters the levels beyond 15th, after which you can't really do much without additional attacks per round etc things with a thac0 of 13, when fighters have it at 7 and additional 1.5 attacks per round at base levels. And no, the casting won't help that much there. Yes, at support yeah, but not making him a titan that can smack the G's out of iants. And if we look at the closes class in relation to the Bard class, it's the Thief/Mage multiclass, in which the thief is a better rogue as long as you don't go and just constraint to the thieving stuff(pickpocket), so the bard should be better at the casting, as it's supposed to be a sorta combat support mage. And at the table I have up there, he is. Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'd like to have more time for discussing this but I can only say: - I'd really love to give bards a slightly more unique spellbook but afaik it is not possible. All I could do is add them a bunch of already memorized bard-only spells, but I'm not sure about it because I fear it would feel kinda odd. ... It works fine for the wildmage Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 @Jarno, I don't know if I have to take you seriously or not. Anyway... ... the mage gets the best magic user armor, in other words, the +2/+4 reduction to casting time. Its better than what a bard can get. And if you have time stop at casting time 5, it's better than what the bard can ever do with his armor :lol: The "armor" you are speaking of isn't available withing BG1, and even within BG2 it's a late game item. Armors offers much better physical protection, and the ability to use them will open up tons of opportunities, even more so with IR. Btw, Bards can eventually be able to use any item via HLA, thus they have armors early on, and that late game item too if you wish so. Same goes for all the high level spells as long as the mage gets more of them than the bard which the tables above should show.I really don't have the time to explain how faulty this logic is, in so many ways. Let's give everything to everyone then, just in different doses. Who cares about classes having unique features! The bard's thac0 is not that good that you can replace the mage + fighter pair with two bards.I guess you have never played a Blade then, as that bard even in vanilla is a devastating killing machine able to both tank better than a warrior (MI, Stoneskin, PfMW, etc.) and benefit from fighting-oriented spells better than pure mages (Improved Haste, Tenser Transformation, etc.). KR's revised thac0/saves tables are not to be underestimated too, as compared to vanilla rogues are the ones who benefit the most from them (the 5 points of thac0 alone are a HUGE improvement imo). I would really like the bards songs to actually make a difference, but it's usually too passive to actually play a role in a battle, after all you can't really do a lot without longer song effects... same thing goes to clerics, the turning might help in one case out of 20, but rest of the time it's totally useless power to even have.Well, we have already agreed on granting a Lingering Song effect (aka small ongoing duration even when stop singing), and Bard's songs aren't even remotely as situational as Turn Undead, they have way more utility and potential. The hp that the bards have ... well will soon to be consumed by the first melee hits that you get hit when rushing to melee with the better thac0.Yes, later on the hp difference starts to matter less, but those 20-40 hit points can still save you, and early on (e.g. BG1) even a small 10-20hp difference is a real boon to have. (Un)fortunately I don't have more time to discuss this right now. I hope I made my points clear anyway. Link to comment
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