Gavin for gay men

[BelgarathMTH]

Hello, I am a gay man, and I always use mods to get a little bit of a gay dynamic to be available in BG, with or without Nathaniel. ("Remove gender restrictions from romances" is one of the best Tweaks in the package for those of us with minority orientations.)

 

I like to use my imagination, with some slight rewrites, to think of Gavin as a potentially gay character, at least in some kind of alternate universe.

 

Instead of having had his daughter at a young age because of naivete, he could have done so while trying to deny his true orientation in youth - many gay men in real life have children for precisely such reasons.

 

After being encouraged by Charname, he could have gradually become willing to explore the forbidden side of himself; his sister and his parents would eventually surprise him by being sympathetic and accepting of Gavin and Charname, where Gavin expected and Charname feared shock and rejection.

 

I present the idea here because I am curious about people's reactions to it. I know that the character was never written to support such a thing, but, why not allow to each their own, especially in fiction. (I believe the slang for my "slight" rewrites of the character is called "FanYay".)

 

Will people say "OMG, how horrible, for shame, it cannot and will not be", or will people say "well, he isn't like that in my game, but if it makes you happy, then go for it"?

 

My hope is that Berelinde and others will take this for the complement that it is meant to be, for one of the marks of a truly iconic character is that he or she begins to have fan fiction and "FanYay" written about him or her.

[berelinde]

Hey, if you think it can be done, I'm all for it!

 

There are some pretty major checks that need to be removed from the BG1 portion of the mod to convert it, but if you want, I can help you find the script blocks to disable. In BG2, it's a lot easier, but it's still a bit tricky because the romance variables are set in the joining dialogue that contains numerous OR() blocks.

 

The best way to do this would probably be as a separate mod to install after the Gavin mod itself is installed. If you write the dialogue changes that need to be made, I can help with the scripting.

 

The Gavin that existed in my skull was always straight, and I went through a lot of complicated scripting nonsense to present an internally consistent character, but I've had a few years to think about it, and I am starting to think that I should have done things a bit differently. Does it hurt anyone to have a "Make Gavin Gay" mod? No, it really doesn't. Could I see Gavin falling in love with a male PC? Sure, especially if you tweak the Miranda/Lanie story. Two things to keep in mind, though. The first is that Lanie is not his biological daughter. Gavin might have initiated a sexual relationship with Miranda while in confused denial about his orientation, but in no universe would he sleep with someone with the goal of impregnanting her as a way to prove to others that he was straight. It might be easier for him to explain his relationship with Miranda (and the fatherhood that followed) by saying that he was experimenting. Whatever works for you, though. If you think he needs to regret Miranda for more reasons than he already does, go for it. Just don't make him regret becoming a father. That would change the character too much. The second thing to keep in mind is that there is no stigma associated with homosexuality in Faerun. There would be no need to fear a negative reaction from the family.

 

This topic has actually come up quite a bit over the years. I have resisted making a gay/bi version because I did not feel that I could make it believable. If somebody else is going to do it, though, I'll help however I can.

 

All I ask is that if you are going to do it, do it right. Go through the mod and figure out what needs to change for it to make sense for a male PC and write it all down. When you're done, let me know and we can talk about the best way to make it happen in game. I definitely think that a "mod the mod" approach is the best one to take here. That way players that want it could have it, and those that don't can play it as-is.

[KIrving]

I think it's a great idea.

[BelgarathMTH]

@Berelinde, thanks for being supportive of the idea.

 

So far I've not encountered problems just using the "remove gender restrictions from romances" from tweaks. I believe that it fools programs into reading the protagonist as the opposite gender, so that while using it, as far as Gavin is concerned, the protagonist is female even if male.

 

Sometimes, as I've found with Anomen's romance dialogues, I have to start BG2 as female until the first dialogue triggers, and then switch back to male - Shadowkeeper allows this.

 

Another of my tricks is to use Shadowkeeper to create a character who is male in every respect except the gender id line. The one problem with this method is that the spellcasting voice will be female. Also, for the rare places where it matters, the npc's in the world will perceive the protagonist as female.

 

I don't have the time or skills to create my own mod, and I doubt anybody else does either, while you are of course busy with real life and with getting Throne of Bhaal done when you can.

 

I forgot about Lanie not being Gavin's biologically. However, I can easily see Gavin as wanting to raise the child as his own, even if he was never in love with or even attracted to Lanie's mother. It's the same kind of noble thing I myself would do, and seeing a kindred soul through Gavin's behavior is why I think I could fall in love with him, and his adopted daughter, too. I would totally do some kind of "my two dads" thing with this character!

 

Once again, thank you so much for creating such a memorable character who is so integral to the BG experience of so many people, and thank you for being accepting of those of us who have a minority orientation and who might want to imagine him slightly differently.

[cmorgan]

"remove gender restrictions from romances" from tweaks.

Unfortunately, that only works on BioWare stuff. It will not work on any of the mod-added NPCs.

 

Using the Girdle of Gender Bending will work on many romances, but not Ajantis (and I think not Gavin but I am not sure.)

 

Setting the .cre gender to FEMALE will definitely work for any mod, as the baseline for matches is usually

Gender(Player1,FEMALE)

[BelgarathMTH]

"remove gender restrictions from romances" from tweaks.

Unfortunately, that only works on BioWare stuff. It will not work on any of the mod-added NPCs.

 

Using the Girdle of Gender Bending will work on many romances, but not Ajantis (and I think not Gavin but I am not sure.)

 

Setting the .cre gender to FEMALE will definitely work for any mod, as the baseline for matches is usually

Gender(Player1,FEMALE)

 

I'm thinking now that I must have used some of my Shadowkeeper tricks before and forgotten that I did that.

 

I know that the Girdle doesn't work with Gavin because I tried it once. Berelinde actually anticipated that and wrote a dialogue response where he says something along the lines that it gives him the creeps, since he already knew the protagonist as a male.

[berelinde]

Honestly, I'd rather leave the romance match scripting alone, disable the pre-LT12 "Did you think I wouldn't notice that you're male?" dialogue, and disable the Girdle of Gender dialogue for this mod. That way, all it would take would be one player-initiated flirt to get a romance with a male PC started.

 

It's doable, and I wouldn't mind helping with the tricky bits. I just can't write the dialogue. At least not by myself.

[Guest Lilyan]

Hmm. Obviusly Berelinde is the creator of Gavin so this is just how I personally think, but...

 

Would Gavin really be in denial about being gay? Since there's no stigma about it in Faerun, Gavin is a priest of a religion that is very liberal in what comes to sex, and Gavin himself is open-minded himself, I find it hard to picture him having difficulties to accept that side of himself. I know he feels somewhat embarrassed about liking kinky sex, but would he really feel homosexuality is something to be ashamed of? I kind of would see him being in terms with it.

 

I'd figure that while sleeping with Miranda he would have been confused about his orientation, not in denial. I know some gay people haven't figured it out until in their thirties. If I'd write a gay Gavin, he'd already be fine and open about being gay. Or maybe he'd still be a bit clueless: "I never knew I had these tendencies! Actually, this explain a lot!"

 

Again, not saying that's how anyone else should do it, that's just how I'd do it.

[BelgarathMTH]

Hmm. Obviusly Berelinde is the creator of Gavin so this is just how I personally think, but...

 

Would Gavin really be in denial about being gay? Since there's no stigma about it in Faerun, Gavin is a priest of a religion that is very liberal in what comes to sex, and Gavin himself is open-minded himself, I find it hard to picture him having difficulties to accept that side of himself. I know he feels somewhat embarrassed about liking kinky sex, but would he really feel homosexuality is something to be ashamed of? I kind of would see him being in terms with it.

 

I'd figure that while sleeping with Miranda he would have been confused about his orientation, not in denial. I know some gay people haven't figured it out until in their thirties. If I'd write a gay Gavin, he'd already be fine and open about being gay. Or maybe he'd still be a bit clueless: "I never knew I had these tendencies! Actually, this explain a lot!"

 

Again, not saying that's how anyone else should do it, that's just how I'd do it.

 

Thanks, Lilyann, this is the kind of hypothetical, philosophical discussion of the issue that I was looking for when I posted.

 

In any world, especially a patriarchal, fuedal, and/or monarchical world where title and inheritance are passed down through the male line, parents are going to go through a grieving process when they find out that their son is gay, and therefore will never produce any male (or female) heirs.

 

So I would think that his family would have to have struggled with it at least a little, or it doesn't make sense, at least unless there is source material that makes it clear that inheritance and family name can be and is passed down through the female line in Faerun. I'm not sure if Forgotten Realms materials are consistent about this.

 

(The writer of the Nathaniel character does a good job depicting the kinds of difficult issues in work and relationships that any gay man is going to face because of human nature. To say that the entire world of Faerun has no problem with gay relationships and orientation seems inauthentic to me.)

 

In Gavin's case, he does have Lanie, who is at least a female child in the family who we can presume, for the sake of argument, can carry on the Mor name. Plus, he has a brother and his sister. That would make his family likely to accept a gay orientation with a minimum amount of difficulty. Also, given the way they immediately embrace the female protagonist in the canon version, who has rather extreme and dangerous problems going on in her life, they seem to be people who are much more open and accepting than most.

 

So I guess the encounter with Gavin's family really wouldn't be much different, if we assume that Gavin had told them of his true feelings shortly after Miranda had left him, and thus, by the time he meets Charname, they have long known and accepted Gavin's hypothetically gay orientation.

 

As far as initiating romance, I think the initial flirts would happen the way most gay male flirtations get started - with compliments to the masculine features of the crushee. (Handsome face, good hair, muscularity (how long do you work out to look like that?), prowess in battle or athletics, sometimes even intellect or confident leadership, etc.)

 

As far as actually writing out a story and putting it into the game, I think that the problem with making it dependent on player initiation is that some players never use that feature. Of course, if someone is looking for a gay romance and Gavin isn't talking, those players would be more likely to go into the player-initiated menu to see if they could start something. And if it were a separate mod or a choose-on-install component of the main mod, there could be info in the readme that told how to start it.

 

Like I said, I really don't see myself having the time or especially the creative skill to pull that off. I just wanted to talk about the idea with like-minded fans.

[berelinde]

Well, when someone comes forward who's willing to write the dialogue, I'm more than happy to help code it in, but unless someone does, it's going to have to remain as a "Wouldn't it have been nice if" situation.

 

And in BG1, Gavin's parents already have 6 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild on the way. They aren't worried about carrying on the family name. They have had a long and happy marriage themselves and are only concerned that their middle son has seen nothing but disappointment in love. They would welcome literally anyone into the family at once, as long as that person made Gavin happy.

[BelgarathMTH]

Well, when someone comes forward who's willing to write the dialogue, I'm more than happy to help code it in, but unless someone does, it's going to have to remain as a "Wouldn't it have been nice if" situation.

 

And in BG1, Gavin's parents already have 6 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild on the way. They aren't worried about carrying on the family name. They have had a long and happy marriage themselves and are only concerned that their middle son has seen nothing but disappointment in love. They would welcome literally anyone into the family at once, as long as that person made Gavin happy.

 

Thank you so much for being receptive of and supportive of a gay Gavin relationship.

 

Your input and your "go for it!" response have warmed my soul. I always thought that someone who wrote a character like Gavin would probably have a very good and loving heart.

[Guest Lilyan]

(The writer of the Nathaniel character does a good job depicting the kinds of difficult issues in work and relationships that any gay man is going to face because of human nature. To say that the entire world of Faerun has no problem with gay relationships and orientation seems inauthentic to me.)

 

I kind of agree. If nothing else, it's in human nature to look down on anything different, even when it's not seen as something immoral. I don't know how many openly gay people would inhabit Faerun, but they would still be a minority. Although in Gavin's case, I think he wouldn't have gotten much pressure from his immediate surroundings and the people who truly matter to him. He has an open-minded, loving family and his church is (as far as I know) accepting.

 

Now, how would Gavin would go about starting a gay romance... Since Gavin is very unsure of himself with a woman, I'd imagine he'd be even more hopeless with a man. He would know that most men don't go for other men and possibly get upset if he'd start flirting with them, so he'd be even more convinced he's got no chance. Poor Gavin! I think he'd first try to let the PC know about his orientation and find out about his before starting to flirt. He's very considerate, so he'd try not to make the PC feel awkward about it. That's why I don't think he'd just say "I thought you should know I'm gay" but rather let him know about it in a more roundabout way. Maybe when he's talking about his past, he'd just tell the PC how his discovery of being a homosexual complicated the situation with Miranda.

 

Now, if the PC was Gavin's first gay love and he discovers his orientation during the game, I think he'd be so full of confusion and insecurities that the PC would have to pursue him actively, or the romance would never even get started! You know, the Gavin in my head (and heart ) is definitely not gay and very much in love with my bhaalspawn, but this scenario sounds so deliciously angsty that now I want to play it!

[BelgarathMTH]

(The writer of the Nathaniel character does a good job depicting the kinds of difficult issues in work and relationships that any gay man is going to face because of human nature. To say that the entire world of Faerun has no problem with gay relationships and orientation seems inauthentic to me.)

 

I kind of agree. If nothing else, it's in human nature to look down on anything different, even when it's not seen as something immoral. I don't know how many openly gay people would inhabit Faerun, but they would still be a minority. Although in Gavin's case, I think he wouldn't have gotten much pressure from his immediate surroundings and the people who truly matter to him. He has an open-minded, loving family and his church is (as far as I know) accepting.

 

Now, how would Gavin would go about starting a gay romance... Since Gavin is very unsure of himself with a woman, I'd imagine he'd be even more hopeless with a man. He would know that most men don't go for other men and possibly get upset if he'd start flirting with them, so he'd be even more convinced he's got no chance. Poor Gavin! I think he'd first try to let the PC know about his orientation and find out about his before starting to flirt. He's very considerate, so he'd try not to make the PC feel awkward about it. That's why I don't think he'd just say "I thought you should know I'm gay" but rather let him know about it in a more roundabout way. Maybe when he's talking about his past, he'd just tell the PC how his discovery of being a homosexual complicated the situation with Miranda.

 

Now, if the PC was Gavin's first gay love and he discovers his orientation during the game, I think he'd be so full of confusion and insecurities that the PC would have to pursue him actively, or the romance would never even get started! You know, the Gavin in my head (and heart ) is definitely not gay and very much in love with my bhaalspawn, but this scenario sounds so deliciously angsty that now I want to play it!

 

I like your take on it, Lilyan. It sounds like you understand gay men and what Gavin might be like if he were one.

 

From your name and words, I'm guessing you're female. Interestingly, the writer of the Nathaniel character is also a woman. Some women seem to understand gay men even better than they understand themselves.

[Raieyana]

I think it's a great idea.

 

Don't let lack of time or feelings of creativity scare you away. I once saw Jackie Collins on the Bonnie Hunt show, and she said something so simple, yet it resonated with me: "You have to write, that's what you have to do. Don't talk about it, do it."

 

I went right to my computer and started my own BG fanfic. I never expected it to go anywhere but it is over 475 pages now and I am having a blast. Gavin is part of my Charname's party and he is much easier to write than I figured he would be. I enjoy throwing him into all sorts of spider related situations I don't intend to ever post it or anything but it is tons of fun and has been a wonderful distraction from my everyday.

 

I think you should go for it, even if it is only a few lines a day, and even if you're the only one that ever sees it. If you don't start somewhere it will never happen

[Brei]

I think its an awesome idea myself and would love to see it happen. I would like to help you if you decide to carry though with the idea. If you want help that is.