SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[polytope]

I think that immobilizing a character for one round with no save + 3 rounds slow with no save + "save or else" is too powerful for a sixth level spell. It's more powerful than the 7th level PW:Stun (which will stun most enemies for 1-4 rounds if they have 90hp or less).

 

Slow + palette colour change for one round even on a successful save would seem okay; a one round delay gives the possibility of dispelling, but only if very quick.

Edited July 26, 2012 by polytope

[DavidW]

Catching up belatedly with this thread, one observation: I'm no longer using melee attacks in timestop, as it was starting to strain my credulity. (You can turn it on again at the console, but it's deactivated by default). If you want Timestop to disable melee entirely, it won't inconvenience me.

[Demivrgvs]

Time Stop

Catching up belatedly with this thread, one observation: I'm no longer using melee attacks in timestop, as it was starting to strain my credulity. (You can turn it on again at the console, but it's deactivated by default). If you want Timestop to disable melee entirely, it won't inconvenience me.

Ohhh...great! I'm not 100% sure I will make it "standard" but I would be more than happy to do so.

[urdjur]

Wow, this thread has been an interesting read. I really like what's in the pipeline so far. I have lots of feedback, though most things are in agreement with what has already been said. I'll get into specifics into another post later when I have more time, but here are some general comments.

 

On "necromantic" damage: Skull Trap and ADHW has always been the "no brainer" AoE spells due to their damage type bypassing most immunities (and practicality). SRv3 balanced them pretty well, but for flavor reasons, I really think all constructs and undead (incl. Mordy Swords) should be immune to these spells to make them less catch-all. Also - and some will probably hate me for this - but is there a good reason that ADHW is party friendly? Except that Bioware created it like that, much like the much debated no-SR on Sunfire? To me, party friendly AoE is part of the priestly portfolio, not high necromantic arcana. And on that note, all that applies to these spells should also apply to the Cause Wounds series, unless it is already so (don't really use those spells much so I don't know). It might be appropriate for Skull Trap to heal undead like CW type spells, but probably not with ADHW.

 

On [force] damage: Magic Missile and the new Force Missiles should IMO be the only spells that uses pure magical damage without restrictions. These have traditionally been SR yes, save no, single target autohit, long range effects. (Setting aside Bigby hands). I know level 4 is true to PnP for the Force Missiles, but have you considered putting them in say, level 7, and making them more powerful instead? Level 4 is so crowded already and level 7 only has what, DBF as direct damage options?

 

Apart from that, I really like the other "streamlining" suggestions - putting all elemental summons and elemental protections in one spell with a menu and making spell triggers/contingencies innate abilities. Has it been considered to make Dimension Door a very limited (LoS) innate at will ability like Paladin's Detect Evil? It would fit the logic of AI wizards always having and using it, and would be quite fun/useful if care to balance it is taking. And save the trouble of having to decide on which spell slot to put it in.

 

The Invisible Stalker changes are *very* welcome news for my solo sorceror who already uses the spell for its long duration. I use a rabbit familiar with Invisibility on it currently together with a few IS to explore, however the trap detection on the rabbit is far from ideal and not being able to handle the traps is frustrating at times. I would suggest removing Wizard Eye from level 4 and rolling it into Invisible Stalker and adding divine Find Traps to it, plus perhaps reducing its toughness (it should still compare to the likes of Skeleton Warriors though, so maybe not necessary). However, rather than adding trap *removal* to it, I'd simply make ALL summons trigger traps. It's quite logical really - if a walking humanoid triggers a trap, why doesn't a summoned ogre? Is it illusory or quasi-real? No. I'd like for all SRs summons to follow you between areas and trigger traps. Sounds fair?

 

More later, dinner awaits!

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, this thread has been an interesting read. I really like what's in the pipeline so far. I have lots of feedback, though most things are in agreement with what has already been said. I'll get into specifics into another post later when I have more time, but here are some general comments.

 

"Necromantic" Damage

On "necromantic" damage: Skull Trap and ADHW has always been the "no brainer" AoE spells due to their damage type bypassing most immunities (and practicality). SRv3 balanced them pretty well, but for flavor reasons, I really think all constructs and undead (incl. Mordy Swords) should be immune to these spells to make them less catch-all.

Horrid Wilting already works like that within V3, Skull Trap will do the same within V4.

 

And on that note, all that applies to these spells should also apply to the Cause Wounds series, unless it is already so (don't really use those spells much so I don't know).

Indeed, Cause Wond spell will follow the same principle.

 

On a side note, Larloch's Minor Drain, Energy Drain and Vampiric Touch will do too.

 

It might be appropriate for Skull Trap to heal undead like CW type spells, but probably not with ADHW.

On one hand it makes sense, otoh it feels wrong.

 

Horrid Wilting

Also - and some will probably hate me for this - but is there a good reason that ADHW is party friendly? Except that Bioware created it like that, much like the much debated no-SR on Sunfire? To me, party friendly AoE is part of the priestly portfolio, not high necromantic arcana.

Little to say here, the AI could not handle such a change. Btw, while Fireball-like spells being party friendly makes absolutely no sense (I hate Dragon Breath being party friendly), it's not hard to imagine Horrid Wilting simply affecting caster's opponents, as it's neither a cloud nor an "explosion".

 

"Force" Damage

On [force] damage: Magic Missile and the new Force Missiles should IMO be the only spells that uses pure magical damage without restrictions. These have traditionally been SR yes, save no, single target autohit, long range effects. (Setting aside Bigby hands). I know level 4 is true to PnP for the Force Missiles, but have you considered putting them in say, level 7, and making them more powerful instead? Level 4 is so crowded already and level 7 only has what, DBF as direct damage options?

I prefer to keep Mordenkainen's Force Missiles at their correct lvl if possible. But don't worry, Evokers will have one single target alternative to DBF, it's Bigby's Icy Grasp. not to mention they have one of the best spells ever at this lvl, Mordy Sword (which deals "force" damage just like MM and M'FM).

 

Various

Apart from that, I really like the other "streamlining" suggestions - putting all elemental summons and elemental protections in one spell with a menu and making spell triggers/contingencies innate abilities. Has it been considered to make Dimension Door a very limited (LoS) innate at will ability like Paladin's Detect Evil? It would fit the logic of AI wizards always having and using it, and would be quite fun/useful if care to balance it is taking. And save the trouble of having to decide on which spell slot to put it in.

See here, and look for Greater Dimension Door.

 

I'd like for all SRs summons to follow you between areas and trigger traps. Sounds fair?

Yes to the first, a must have. Not sure about the latter, though it indeed makes sense. Mmm...

 

More later, dinner awaits!

Go ahead.

[urdjur]

On a side note, Larloch's Minor Drain, Energy Drain and Vampiric Touch will do too.

 

Excellent! Nice touch!

 

On one hand it makes sense, otoh it feels wrong.

 

My sentiments exactly. A mass heal trap + damage to non-undead would be a pretty powerful tool for a necromancer though

 

Little to say here, the AI could not handle such a change.

 

I thought all AoE spells were made friendly for the AI, but perhaps SCS works differently?

 

See here, and look for Greater Dimension Door.

 

Wow, another link brimming with v4 material! *drool* Expect comments in that thread too later

 

Yes to the first, a must have. Not sure about the latter, though it indeed makes sense. Mmm...

 

Why the hesitation? If it's programming, I know this has been done before in an old mod. If it's play balance, most thiefly functions can be had as level 2 spells already (knock/battering ram, find traps, invisibility) so trading 1 summon for 1 trap (because it will probably die) is hardly o.p. IMO. And we agree that such a change makes sense logically, and you wanted trap removing functionality in Invisible Stalker to begin with... this is just a more discrete way of implementing it

 

OK, now for the wall of text LOL! I'll use the remainder of this post to comment on the spells listed in the opening post. Other spells will be handled in another post. Oh, and I have little experience/interest in the divine spells, so I'll limit myself to the arcane ones:

 

A general comment/prayer is that whatever version you decide upon for a spell (such as Flame Arrow), please pretty please update the spell description document in game and on the site so that it actually describes exactly what the spell does game mechanically in no uncertain terms. Thanks in advance!

 

Level 1 Arcane Spells: All changes seem fine, no additional comments.

Level 2: Great. Will the PnP flammability of Web be implemented somehow?

 

Level 3:

Non-detection: I don't find a partial, save-based protection very appealing :/ Would you like to buy insurance without knowing when you're covered? Who would actually memorize this spell, let alone pick it as a sorceror? I suggest making it work more like a Spell Shield for Divination effects. It cancels itself when "struck" by a divination effect, but you're immune to that divination effect (or it makes it "backfire" and cancels the diviniation too). I also suggest either long duration or short c.t. on this so it can be used in response to thwart a True Seeing.

 

Skull trap damage: IMO, damage caps and save penalties can be used to balance spells against each other. If the level 3 gold standard for AoE is 10d6 max, no penalty, for example for Fireball, then we need to compare Skull Trap to it and see if it merits something else. I think [necromantic] is slightly more appealing than [fire], and comparing DBF to Fireball, the delay on the trap must be a benefit. Does the smaller range and AoE on the trap compared to Fireball really merit a higher damage cap with these things considered? I don't think so. I think all the lvl 3 damage spells should be 10d6 max unless for a very good reason. 15d6 is appropriate around level 4-6 and 20d6 for levels 7-9.

 

Level 4: Damn you! You're making the lvl 4 spells even cooler and more appealing! How is my sorceror gonna make do with 5 picks?

 

Level 5:

Breach: Breach not dispelling stoneskin will have a huge impact. Not quite as much as removing Spell Immunity, but almost. My prediction is that this will:

A) Make casters even more powerful compared to fighters

B) Make casters less able to support allied fighters against opposing casters, encouraging the use of arcane vs. arcane solo strategies

Is this what you wish to do? It's fine by me, since I play 95% as a solo sorceror and enemies don't have a lot of weapons with added effects/elemental damage. In fact, I might not even bother with Mislead etc. If True Sight -> Breach still won't dispel Stoneskin. Let them Breach! I'll use spell deflection and spell shield against dispel effects, AoE damage and save-or-dies anyway in v4. Then I can skip PfMW too as a standard buff and only use it when I really need it (against nasty attack-based effects). In fact, I think non-breachability will make Stoneskin better than PfMV in more than half of all fights. If you do this, I hope there will be a higher level debuff that strips Stoneskin (haven't looked at all the new v4 spells yet so I don't know).

 

Conjure Lesser Elemental: Big yes to all changes, especially merging into one spell.

 

Protection from Acid/etc: Same here, please merge

 

Spell Immunity: First I thought "whoa, my days as a sorceror are over". But reading on and thinking about it, I'm convinced. Throw this broken spell out and let the players and AI adapt to the new rules

 

Sunfire/Fireburst: If cone of cold is same level and 15d6 cold cone, I think this is balanced as a 15 d6 fire area around caster. Both have slightly "iffy" AoEs, both are powerful and neither seems instantly more appealing than the other.

 

Level 6

Create Undead: Yes to reinstalling the Skeleton Warrior at this level. My only gripe is having both long duration summons (this and stalker) at the same level. Could the stalker be toned down to make it 5th level, or perhaps make an overview on the duration of the summons overall. Which should be 3 turns/level and which should be longer? Making SWs last 3 turns/level is a way to tone them down slightly.

 

Disintegrate: I mostly agree here, but just to clarify, I think this should pure magic damage and not something you can be immune to (unless there's a very good reason). Hitting golems with this should be just as effective as using MM or Force Missiles (as long as you can get past their MR). The save should be the same for all - either you save and take little damage or you don't and take massive damage. The reason to cast this rather than, say, Flesh to Stone or Polymorph Other, is that very few targets are immune to magic damage and that you get a small effect even on a failed save. Also, golems are naturally resistant to the spell due to their high HP. Does this makes sense? "Logically" speaking, disintegrating undead and constructs seems like a perfectly viable strategy.

 

Flesh to Stone: I'm not 100% sure how this is implemented currently, but why do you think it's underpowered compared to disintegrate? As long as the target is made of flesh (not incorporeal or construct), it will be destroyed utterly on a failed save rather than just take lots of damage that might destroy it. Since immunity to [petrification] is more rare than immunity to [death] effects, FtS trumps Finger of Death in most cases, at one spell level lower. To balance it IMO, it needs a higher save penalty than Poly Other, and a lower penalty than FoD. And not destroy equipment etc. to be useful.

 

Inv Stalker: Discussed already

 

Pierce Magic: Wut?! Have you considered the implications of one spell completely stripping MR for "a bunch of rounds"? Even if it's only for 1 round, consider that this fits in the biggest spell trigger. Or time stop, alacrity etc. I would really want this power at my fingertips: the next bunch of spells I cast have MR = no. Sorry lich, sorry dragon. Didn't you get the memo?

 

Flesh to Stone: I'm fine with removing it completely, making it a non-you Stoneskin or a more limited version of Freedom (cure most statuses) or perhaps provide some status immunities for a while.

 

True Seeing: Yey to not dispelling clones! (and the other changes too

 

KW Whip: You lost me here... will it still strip spell protections or do something else entirely?

 

Mantle: I suggest making a gradual progression from PfNW and PfMW via the level 7 and 8 mantles up to Absolute Immunity, adding more stuff along the way so to speak. So Mantle could include PfNW+PfMW and some short duration elemental immunities, Improved Mantle could add some more immunities (perhaps 100% damage immunity and 100% magic resistance) and finally Absolute Immunity would top it all off. This is my idea for a nice, smoothe spell suite much like the elemental immunity spells. A benefit of this approach is that you don't *have to* pick PfMW specifically as a sorceror (or have all AI mages memo it). You could opt for level 7-9 alternatives instead and not miss out on the functionality - indeed get even more functionality. As for a mass or long duration PfMW variant, I'm not sure that would be a good direction to go for the mantles.

 

Project Image: If you make it completely illusionary, I think it should be implemented more as a "displaced point of origin" for casted spells, much like being able to cast spells from a distance into a Farsighted area. Can this be done? (The AI response would be to dispel, summon a demon which teleports magically to your true location or flee in panic - which is really what they should be doing now if they see a Project Image clone). If you want a simple way to nerf it more, I a fixed 1 turn duration would be appropriate. The spell gets more and more silly the longer it lasts and the more spells you can unleash for free.

 

Level 8: Everything here seems fine. I've commented on mantles already and the level tweaking of symbols and power words seems reasonable.

 

Level 9

Absolute Immunity: I think you should think even bigger (the Time Stop comparison shows this). For me to even consider this as a spell for my sorceror, I would need:

*Equal or better duration than PfMW (casting time 1 goes without saying)

*Complete immunity to any effect in the game, including 100% damage immunity, 100% MR and immunity to ability/level drain, petrification, polymorph, death blah blah. Complete and utter safety for the duration - untouchable. No bosses should be able to ignore this spell, as they can Time Stop. Absolutely NOTHING in the entire trilogy can get through.

*Almost impossible to remove. Wait it out or flee in terror. It would be OK for me if Spell Strike could remove it though, since it would simply mean that you need a level 9 spell to cancel a level 9 spell, which is only fair.

If you do this, you can probably throw out Spell Trap too and never have to worry about recharging loops again. You have The One Protection Spell that does it all at 9th level, albeit for a short duration.

 

As a side note, what were seeing here is a consolidation of magical, physical and elemental protections. The current buff/debuff system isn't really equipped to handle this, since it dispels more "by category". My suggestion is that for spells up to level 6-7, we should be looking at partial immunities (for example one element, all elements, spell deflection, weapons damage etc.) and counter measure that auto dispel one or a few of these (Breach, Secret Word, True Seeing). But from around level 7-8 we should look at more complete solutions. Like Spell Strike dispelling all combat, specific and spell protections in a small AoE but being stopped by Spell Shield, or Improved Mantle and Absolute Immunity granting powerful blanket immunities. A lesser caster may achieve a similar level of protection by casting 5-6 buffs that a high arcanist can accomplish through a single word. Same with tearing down those protections. Is this an acceptable direction to think in for SRv4 do you think?

 

BBoD: The balance issue here depends more on the base wielder (Kensai/Mage?) much like Tenser's Transformation. Some of these spells will always be must haves for certain builds - it was the same in PnP. But if you want to make it more generally useful, why not let it target anyone so the wizard can give it to the fighter? Then you can balance it from the perspective of counting on an able wielder. As a temporary weapon costing a 9th level spell, I think it would have to be significantly more powerful than the cheesiest weapon in ToB, and scale well beyond level 17 for balance reasons.

 

Energy Drain: The appeal to this spell would really be if it would grant you some benefit in addition to debilitating the opponent. Otherwise you're better off with Imprisonment or PW:Kill etc. In fact, if we do away with Spell Trap to avoid loops, this could be a more balanced way to replenish your spells a bit in combat. For example it could drain X levels, restore X spell levels and heal you X hp, where X is half your caster level. So a 30th level caster would slay a 15 HD target outright and use the energy to restore, say, a 9th level (the one used for Energy Drain) and a 6th level spell slot and heal 15 hp. Abuse could be avoided by not letting it stack much like Vampiric Touch (so you won't just summon fodder and drain them to replenish spells). It becomes a way to conserve resources when fighting lesser foes. Against a more powerful enemy, you're probably better off using Imprisonment etc. instead.

 

Imprisonment: Making this save yes makes it completely uninteresting IMO. I use this spell as an out to gated demons (needing a 9th level spell to counter a 7-9th level summon is not OP). You can't even use it on a planetar, dragon or most (all?) ToB bosses. As for caster duals, if you can get an offensive single target touch spell to resolve on your opponent, you have already won - Imprisonment or not. Imprisonment is already balanced within SCS due to the many powerful creatures immune to it and loosing XP/gear on lesser foes. If you add a save to this and do the suggested change to Pierce Magic, I would probably pick Flesh to Stone over this one.

 

PW Kill: Even more creatures are immune to death than to imprisonment. Imprisonment is no save, no MR. This is suggested to be a maybe save and MR yes. The only benefit is the range and casting time. How about removing the save and hp limit entirely? A clean no save, single target kill spell. Contrasting it to WotB which is mass but allows a save. Still easy to thwart with Death Ward, innate death immunity and magic resistance. Avada Kedavra!

 

Spell Trap: Has this type of effect been anything but trouble since you started with Spell Revisions? With the newly upgraded Absolute Immunity, I think we can say goodbye to this spell at long last. Staff of the Magi could be reconfigured to provide Absolute Immunity once per day instead, or some such.

 

Spellstrike: Already commented on implicitly but I like your ideas so far in the OP. I say go all the way. Have it strip everything in its small AoE (including Absolute Immunity), much like a guaranteed Remove Magic, but thwarted momentarily by Spell Shield. This means a prudent sorceror would open up with a small spell stripper to get rid of Spell Shield and allow a chance to recast the spell shield before Big Bertha hits.

 

Time Stop: David said yes, so out the physical attacks must go IMO. Less power to Kensai Mages. Boo hoo.

 

Wish and Limited Wish: If it is a realtively simple programming task, I would much condone if these were thrown out the window in their current form and remade with the sole function of providing versatility on the fly by letting you cast a lesser spell through a menu (useful for both wizards and sorcerors). For example, Limited Wish could duplicate any arcane spell of level 5 or lower and any priest spell of level 3 or lower. Wish could do the same for level 7 arcane/level 5 divine. Less risk for being situationally overpowered/useless, completely predictable, useful for all but not always a good choice and overall a fair deal. I just worry about bugs when adding menus into menus. For example, will the game crash when a chain contingency triggers a limited wish which summons a lesser elemental which in turn is chosen to be a fire elemental etc. etc? I have no idea! Anyway, out with the Dao and wisdom requirements, in with versatility and spell selection - if its readily doable. For me, this is a far greater priority than some of the new summons you've mentioned in passing (and I know these would require lots of work to implement as well). We get something closer to PnP as well!

 

Phew, a long post. To sum up my key suggestions:

*Why not make summons trigger traps?

*Can't we use Mantle and Improved Mantle to "bridge the gap" between PfMW and Absolute Immunity as was probably intended by Bioware to begin with?

*Maybe we should create a separate thread to discuss in depth the various physical, specific and spell protections, what will strip/thwart what and how to balance it all by level? Might be easier to get an overview that way. For example, the Breach vs. Stoneskin issue is less important if Spell Strike tears down everything (Stoneskin included).

 

I shall have a look at the new spells suggested for v4 and continue commenting in this thread later as well

[Demivrgvs]

It took me a while to write this down.

 

Web

Will the PnP flammability of Web be implemented somehow?

I was giving it for granted back then but now I'm unsure of it. The main "problem" I have with it is that the more we implement such meticulous tweaks, the more players could start asking about "this and that", such as "why Firball doesn't destroy Entangle nor set target's clothes on fire?", "shouldn't Ice Storm quench an Incendiary Cloud?" "shouldn't Grease increase fire effect?", etc.

 

Why many of those could actually be implementable, not all of them are, and I'm tempted to say that it's best to put ourself a limit rather than throwing ourselves into something we cannot complete. Am I wrong?

 

Non-detection

I don't find a partial, save-based protection very appealing. ... I suggest making it work more like a Spell Shield for Divination effects.

I have to assume my description isn't clear. It actually works even better than Spell Shield. The first Divination effect will always be stopped by it, but unlike Spell Shield the first "divination attack" may actually not dispel Non-detection. Such extended duration is necessary because many Divination spells (e.g. True Seeing) are not "single use" (e.g. Detect Illusion) as spell removals, but "once per round".

 

Breach

Breach not dispelling stoneskin will have a huge impact.

In fact, despite my claims (and my wish) I fear I will have to keep Breach able to remove Stoneskin, mostly because SCS cheks for the latter and uses the former as a counter.

 

Disintegrate

I mostly agree here, but just to clarify, I think this should pure magic damage and not something you can be immune to (unless there's a very good reason). Hitting golems with this should be just as effective as using MM or Force Missiles (as long as you can get past their MR).

Magic Missile and its improved version deal pure magic damage, and they are not capable of causing any harm to golems, nor is possible to lower golem's "magic resistance" under SCS and SR.

 

Flesh to Stone

I'm not 100% sure how this is implemented currently, but why do you think it's underpowered compared to disintegrate?

Because the latter deals damage even on a failed save, has a bunch of secondary uses (e.g. it will destroy Mordy Sword with 100% chance) and very few creatures in the entire game are fully immune to it, whereas tons of creatures cannot be petrified (e.g. elementals, undead, incorporeal, etc.).

 

Anyway, my biggest concern isn't that FtS has a lower appeal, is that it I'd like it to be a viable and appealing spell for both party and AI. Right now it is not.

 

Pierce Magic

Wut?! Have you considered the implications of one spell completely stripping MR for "a bunch of rounds"? Even if it's only for 1 round, consider that this fits in the biggest spell trigger. Or time stop, alacrity etc. I would really want this power at my fingertips: the next bunch of spells I cast have MR = no. Sorry lich, sorry dragon. Didn't you get the memo?

Outside of liches what you describe can already be achieved, very easily with a Lower Resistance sequencer. Against many creatures even just 1 or 2 LR are enough to PERMANENTLY remove target's magic resistance. Making PM more like its PnP version and allowing what you describe doesn't strike me as terribly OP, especially because we're talking about a 6th lvl spell (DavidW once said this is the "most wanted" spell slot because things such as PfMW, True Seeing and Death Spell/Banishment almost always fill it) and the target's vulnerability may last even just 2 rounds.

 

Khelben's Warding Whip

You lost me here... will it still strip spell protections or do something else entirely?

Spell protection removal will remain there, I'm talking about improving upon it, not replacing it.

 

Mantles

I suggest making a gradual progression from PfNW and PfMW via the level 7 and 8 mantles up to Absolute Immunity, adding more stuff along the way so to speak. So Mantle could include PfNW+PfMW and some short duration elemental immunities, Improved Mantle could add some more immunities (perhaps 100% damage immunity and 100% magic resistance) and finally Absolute Immunity would top it all off. This is my idea for a nice, smoothe spell suite much like the elemental immunity spells. A benefit of this approach is that you don't *have to* pick PfMW specifically as a sorceror (or have all AI mages memo it). You could opt for level 7-9 alternatives instead and not miss out on the functionality - indeed get even more functionality. As for a mass or long duration PfMW variant, I'm not sure that would be a good direction to go for the mantles.

I wanted to preserve the original spell's behaviour as much as possible (SCS AI uses these spells a little, and treats them as a sort of PfMW, thus the spell's role should remain that), and adding here things such as immunity to damage would overlap with other spells of the same school and same spell lvl (e.g. ProEnergy). What I want to achieve is making them at least as appealing as PfMW if not more (whereas right now almost no one would pick these instead of the cheaper PfMW). I don't see nothing wrong if thay end up completely outshining the former would still remain much cheaper (especially compared to an 8th lvl Mantle, which has to compete with things such as Horrid Wilting and tons of tremendous new V4 spells).

 

Btw, I think Arda once suggested me this (did you?) but in exchange for making Mantles even better, I wouldn't mind making PfNW and PfMW stack. It seems very reasonable considering only players are truly capable of exploiting PfMW's vulnerability to non-magical weapons (opponents generally don't go around with a secondary non-magical weapon). The only problem is that while SCS would be fine with it, Rogue Rebalancing's AI actually tries to counter PfMW equipping non-magical weapons a few times. :/

 

Project Image

If you make it completely illusionary, I think it should be implemented more as a "displaced point of origin" for casted spells, much like being able to cast spells from a distance into a Farsighted area. Can this be done?

No, it cannot be done, else I would have done it right away considering that is more or less its PnP behaviour.

 

Absolute Immunity

I think you should think even bigger (the Time Stop comparison shows this). For me to even consider this as a spell for my sorceror, I would need:

1) Equal or better duration than PfMW (casting time 1 goes without saying)

2) Complete immunity to any effect in the game, including 100% damage immunity, 100% MR and immunity to ability/level drain, petrification, polymorph, death blah blah. Complete and utter safety for the duration - untouchable. No bosses should be able to ignore this spell, as they can Time Stop. Absolutely NOTHING in the entire trilogy can get through.

3) Almost impossible to remove.

I agree with 1) and 2), but I I'm less sure about 3). The thing is, I cannot mess with the AI, thus whatever it currently does to counter Absolute Immunity it has to remain a viable tactic. Considering you can still protect yourself from spell removals with long lasting spells such as Spell Deflection and Spell Shield, it may not be necessary for this spell to be almost impossible to remove anyway, before being able to breach it you would still need to remove the caster's spell protections, taking either multiple casters or at least 2 rounds (a first spell removal to counter Spell Shield, then either another spell removal + Breach or the expensive 8th lvl Pierce Shield).

 

Time Stop would still have a higher potential, but it requires a full round to cast, which is a HUGE difference compared to instant casting time imo.

 

Black Blade of Disaster

The balance issue here depends more on the base wielder (Kensai/Mage?) much like Tenser's Transformation. Some of these spells will always be must haves for certain builds - it was the same in PnP. But if you want to make it more generally useful, why not let it target anyone so the wizard can give it to the fighter?

It has already been suggested, and I discarded this idea. It's a long story to explain, but the short version is that it would surely become OP imo.

 

Energy Drain

The appeal to this spell would really be if it would grant you some benefit in addition to debilitating the opponent.

That's exactly what I thought when I revised it for V3. The plan is to slightly improve what has already been done.

 

Imprisonment

I have really no idea what to do with this spell.

 

Power Word: Kill

How about removing the save and hp limit entirely? A clean no save, single target kill spell. Contrasting it to WotB which is mass but allows a save. Still easy to thwart with Death Ward, innate death immunity and magic resistance.

No, I'm really against making this spell instantly kill anyone (no save) regardless of hit points. It would be ridiculously OP imo, and very unfair for non-mages characters imo (epic warriors deserves at least a chance to survive).

 

Spell Trap

Has this type of effect been anything but trouble since you started with Spell Revisions? With the newly upgraded Absolute Immunity, I think we can say goodbye to this spell at long last.

Well, the "infinite spell exploit" was annoying, but what I like the least is that this spell actually isn't appealing outside of such exploit. The AI will NEVER cast spells against it (his is the same reason I consider Spell Turning completely pointless in this game), making it just a overgrown Spell Deflection which in reality offers very little more than its much cheaper version.

 

I have quite a few ideas to make this spell really special instead of removing it, but first I'll have to confront with SCS AI, and discuss them with Arda - when the right time comes.

 

Time Stop

David said yes, so out the physical attacks must go IMO.

Balance wise I'd be more than happy to go for it now that DavidW seems to agree with me, but first of all I would need to find a good concept to explain the whole TS's behaviour.

 

Considering there are creatures immune to it, TS isn't a "super haste" on the caster, but a real "super slow" effect which affects anyone and everything (including inanimated objects, such as flying arrows), but how can we justify the caster's ability to move around, but inability to actually strike his/her opponents? Are they into a sort of invulnerable Resilient Sphere-like bubble? 3E Time Stop works exactly as we want, but it doesn't provide a good explanation for it imo.

[urdjur]

Why many of those could actually be implementable, not all of them are, and I'm tempted to say that it's best to put ourself a limit rather than throwing ourselves into something we cannot complete. Am I wrong?

 

Probably not. But even if you leave everything as it is, you've already implicitly drawn a line right there, where some things make great sense and others less so. I'd say the more of these "finishing touches" you have time/interest to add, the better - but it's also fine as it is and a bottom priority.

 

I have to assume my description isn't clear. It actually works even better than Spell Shield.

 

Ah, excellent. Thanks for clearing that up. Looks like non-detection will be a must, at least for some defensive strategies.

 

In fact, despite my claims (and my wish) I fear I will have to keep Breach able to remove Stoneskin, mostly because SCS cheks for the latter and uses the former as a counter.

 

Generally speaking, is it very difficult for David to adjust such things after a finalized version of Spell Revisions has been released? I understand the problem, but it feels very backwards to have to respect an AI adapted to a slightly "rougher" version of SR when trying to make a better version. Adjusting a Mordy Sword counter here and there etc. should still amount to less than 1% of the work originally put into SCS spell caster optimization compared to the vanilla game, right? Couldn't it be worth the extra effort for an absolutely final version of SR?

 

Magic Missile and its improved version deal pure magic damage, and they are not capable of causing any harm to golems, nor is possible to lower golem's "magic resistance" under SCS and SR.

 

Why is that, game mechanically? Is it because of 100% MR that cannot be lowered or 100% magic damage type immunity? Or some Golem-unique issue? Anyway, not to drag the discussion out - I have no strong sentiments re: Disintegrate and golems.

 

Outside of liches what you describe can already be achieved, very easily with a Lower Resistance sequencer.

 

OK, I see where you're coming from. And I like the spell idea as such, as long as it's balanced (and it seems to be, on second thought).

 

I wanted to preserve the original spell's behaviour as much as possible (SCS AI uses these spells a little, and treats them as a sort of PfMW, thus the spell's role should remain that), and adding here things such as immunity to damage would overlap with other spells of the same school and same spell lvl (e.g. ProEnergy). What I want to achieve is making them at least as appealing as PfMW if not more (whereas right now almost no one would pick these instead of the cheaper PfMW).

 

I agree that the role of the mantles should be exactly "improved PfMW". Just like Absolute Immunity will be "very much improved PfMW". Even if the 2 mantles were simply exact PfMW clones, it would still be better than nothing and reduce the much discussed strain on level 6 slots. I'm suggesting minor tweaks/additions to them, so as not to make Absolute Immunity "come out of the blue". For example, Level 7 Mantle could be precisely PfNW + PfMW combined and maybe an extra 20% Magic Resistance for the short duration. Improved Mantle could add 50% Magic Resistance and perhaps some other immunity. This would still make them unique for their levels and provide a natural progression to AI at level 9.

 

I agree with 1) and 2), but I I'm less sure about 3).

 

I like your reasoning here re: item 3.

 

It has already been suggested, and I discarded this idea. It's a long story to explain, but the short version is that it would surely become OP imo.

 

The problem is that if that is really the case, then it is already OP for certain class combinations. The dual level 9 Kensai/level X Mage springs to mind.

 

Imprisonment

I have really no idea what to do with this spell.

 

Leave it, it is fine and balanced like it is.

 

No, I'm really against making this spell instantly kill anyone (no save) regardless of hit points. It would be ridiculously OP imo, and very unfair for non-mages characters imo (epic warriors deserves at least a chance to survive).

 

At least with this spell, they can protect themselves via Magic Resistance or Death Ward - contrary to Imprisonment. An epic warrior walking into an epic spell battle without the gear or buffs to withstand death effects deserves to get slain instantly IMO. Who in their right mind would trust a measly saving throw anyway to do the job? An epic warrior must essentially be a "flesh golem" to stand a chance against high arcana. Also, it TARGETS which is a huge thing when it comes to countering it pro-actively (especially for thieves). If you have a save and/or a hp limit, how will you make this more appealing than WotB? One option would be to allow a target with HD > CL a save, but even that makes it pretty unappealing IMO.

 

but how can we justify the caster's ability to move around, but inability to actually strike his/her opponents? Are they into a sort of invulnerable Resilient Sphere-like bubble? 3E Time Stop works exactly as we want, but it doesn't provide a good explanation for it imo

 

Easy! Any event must take a time and a place. TS creates a time-bubble, a short lived demi-plane of time if you will, where you can create your own effects but they will not "take place" (or more precisely: "take time") until the spell elapses and your timeline merges with the one that appears frozen to you. Much like you can't affect the ethereal or astral world without going ethereal or astral, you cannot affect the normal time dimension when you're in one of your own creation.

[n-ghost]

Speaking of imprisonment, I remember myself avoiding it at all because of lost lewts and stuff...

 

Is it possible to add a save to it, so if creature fails it, it goes imprisoned as usual, and if it succeeds, it's only mazed for some rounds? Or maybeh stripped of buffs or somesuch.

Edited October 31, 2012 by n-ghost

[Jarno Mikkola]

At least with this spell, they can protect themselves via Magic Resistance or Death Ward - contrary to Imprisonment. An epic warrior walking into an epic spell battle without the gear or buffs to withstand death effects deserves to get slain instantly IMO. Who in their right mind would trust a measly saving throw anyway to do the job? An epic warrior must essentially be a "flesh golem" to stand a chance against high arcana. Also, it TARGETS which is a huge thing when it comes to countering it pro-actively (especially for thieves). If you have a save and/or a hp limit, how will you make this more appealing than WotB? One option would be to allow a target with HD > CL a save, but even that makes it pretty unappealing IMO.

And how many potions are there that give Death Ward as an enhancement ?

Magic resistance is bad because it works the x% of times, it's not -x% of the effect. This also goes for the golem issue, they are supposed to be immune to portion of the effect... but they get killed because the 1 in a million chance they are not. There's also an old mod that made use of the Disintegrate Golem as a feature... and then it went to make Golems that were immune to the said feature. Bad Design^TM.

 

Easy! Any event must take a time and a place. TS creates a time-bubble, a short lived demi-plane of time if you will, where you can create your own effects but they will not "take place" (or more precisely: "take time") until the spell elapses and your timeline merges with the one that appears frozen to you. Much like you can't affect the ethereal or astral world without going ethereal or astral, you cannot affect the normal time dimension when you're in one of your own creation.

Sorta like Dimension Door to a time dimension. I like that.

 

Speaking of imprisonment, I remember myself avoiding it at all because of lost lewts and stuff...

Is it possible to add a save to it, so if creature fails it, it goes imprisoned as usual, and if it succeeds, it's only mazed for some rounds? Or maybeh stripped of buffs or somesuch.

I would much rather have it's caster gain a freedom spell as a side dish, so the enemy that is imprisoned can be reattacked at a desired time without it's allies. Edited October 31, 2012 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

Some toughts of mine about this:

 

This is where I'll gather all the planned changes, though Im also going to create a bunch of dedicated topics to discuss few things (e.g. New Spells).

 

Global Changes

Innate Contingencies & Sequencers

These spells will be turned into innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. Such change should make SCS fights more fair (as SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it will eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from too many players.

 

Cure/Cause Wounds & Regenerate Wounds

As discussed here.

These both sound great.

 

Arcane Spells

 

 

Detect Invisibility

This spell won't dispell Improved Invisibility effects anymore (making Improved Invisibility's +4 AC much more reliable and effective), but it will reveal invisibile creatures (those under II too) and it will allow to target them normally (aka we don't need spell removals to have that ugly AoE to bypass II anymore, neither SCS more recent solution!). It will also reveal creatures using the new Etherealness spell.

Invisible creatures will be targetable by what? All spells or as now, spell removals?

 

Invisibility Sphere

I'm unable to make it work as per PnP, but I think a small tweak can at least make it serve a purpose. I suggest to reduce its casting time to 1, but heavily nerf the duration down to 10 rounds. This way the spell won't be a cheap Mass Invisibility, but either a very fast "escape" option or a powerful choice for multiple mage-thief backstab combos.

I'm all for nerfing any type of invisibility simply because it makes Stealth redundant.

 

Non-Detection

As discussed here, I'll make it work much more similarly to PnP. When targeted by Detect Illusion, Oracle, or True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

Save vs spells, yes?

 

Confusion

Duration has been reduced from 10 rounds to 5 rounds.

Great.

 

Teleport Field

It won't allow a save anymore as per vanilla.

Tbh, I hate this spell. I hate when mages use it against me, I hate using it on them too. It's so powerful with Protection from Missiles in BG1 that it hurts.

 

Breach

We reached a consensus about making this spell at least slightly less "game-ending" for mages, and at the same time somewhat more similar to its PnP version (which would simply remove target's immunity magical weapons - not only spells such as PfMW, but innate immunities too). SCS also uses it as a counter to spell protections granting immunities to elemental/magic damage, but I don't remember anymore if it uses it against spells such as Free Action, Chaotic Commands, and Death Ward. If yes, I guess we can keep Breach working against them too (they still grant immunities, thus it would still somewhat fit the spell's concept).

I like this....but I wouldn't like it to remove innate immunity to normal weapons.

 

Spell Immunity

Recent "investigations" seem to prove that SCS is currently using only two sub spells of SI, SI:Abj and SI:Div. Let us know if our assumption is wrong. If it's not, we just need to make SCS use Spell Shield instead of the former, Non-detection instead of the latter, and we would have no compatibility issue at all.

I think SCS uses a bit more (Evocation)

 

Sunfire --> Fireburst

I'm renaming it Fireburst as per PnP (perhaps it's just me but the "sun" part was really out of place). PnP version uses d8 dices for damage, but I'm not sure this spell needs more dmg output, does it?

Given that even BG1 SCS mages use it (and in conjuction with that damn Teleport Field), and that it usually kills on a failed save, I'd say it's very powerful.

 

Pierce Magic

To make it more similar to its PnP version, more true to how an abjuration spell is supposed to work, and different from Lower Resistance alteration, I'd make it completely nullify magic resistance on target (setting it to 0%) but for a very limited amount of time (only a bunch of rounds).

Don't like it. It will make the game quite easier. Sure, a trigger with 3xLower Resistance does the same but Trigger is 8th level spell....

 

Protection from Magical Weapons

It may get its 4 rounds duration back because DavidW almost convinced me.

All for that.

 

Mantle

What do you guys think of its V3 version? Did it become somewhat appealing compared to the mighty PfMW?

Imo, it doesn't compete with PFMW.....it competes with Finger of Death and the like...useless for me I guess. AI does make good use of it however.

 

 

 

Improved Mantle

Leaving aside that I always considered both Mantles redundant (why they added these two non-PnP spells is beyond my comprehension), this spell may simply get slightly increased duration (+1 round).

Sounds reasonable. Is it, in any way, possible to make them protect from certain number of hits (like stoneskin) as well? Say, 20 or so? Making it work like this and giving the caster a big AC bonus should make it useful even against high level warriors with +5 weapons, which can kill a mantled wizard in a single round with WW.

 

We also have the problem of making two almost identical spells different and both appealing despite having only 1 lvl difference, and I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Yup, that's crazy.

 

Absolute Immunity

Time Stop will still be superior in every possible way except casting time, as Absolute Immunity would have the noticeable advantage of having almost instant casting time instead of a full round, and 1 round duration. What do you think?

AI can last longer that 1 round I guess....3 is fine - it's 9th level. Even if so powerful, I'd think twice before picking it since I like my mages in back row, not as tanks.

 

 

 

Spellstrike

This should be the ultimate spell removal. Back then DavidW convinced me to not make it really devastating because casters had almost no protection against it, but now that we have Spell Shield into the equation again I think we don't have to restrain ourselves anymore. Even if we make it remove all spell and specific protections, as long as Spell Shield can now counter one Spellstrike I think everything will be fine, wouldn't it?

It's a very powerful spell within SCS....usually my first level 9 pick with sorcerer. I'd nerf it, and nerf it badly. Only spell protections (it is a Spellstrike, no?) should be removed, and still it would be great.

 

Wish

See Limited Wish. Infinite potential, but very complicate to implement.

Creme the la cheese spell....I'd remove it or nerf it alot, but SCS uses it as well.

 

 

 

Divine Spells

 

 

Armor of Faith

I'd increase its duration to 5 turns (1 hour). With ToBEx concentration tweak it may actually become a real must have even with short duration because the concentration check is easier the less dmg the caster suffer, and thus we may look AoF as having a -20% spell failure effect. Regardless, raising the duration wouldn't hurt imo.

This is a very powerful spell with exellent scaling. Sure this needs a buff?

.

Invisibility Purge

This is a little tricky. Unlike mage's Detect Invisibility this is an abjuration spell, and should work differently imo. This spell should not grant the caster the ability to target an II creature with spells, neither to attack him without suffering -4 penalty to hit rolls, but it should instead work as a sort of "dispel invisibility", effectively removing any form of invisibility unless protected by Non-detection. Am I right?

Very powerful for it's level. But then again, a thief with detect illusions does the same and bypasses all protections from divination.

 

Miscast Magic

I don't know, is it fine/appealing?

It's hilarious. I was hesitant to try it, but when I did, the results were exellent. Moreover, it does not apply spell failure so SCS mages still cast spells.

 

Cloak of Fear

I thought this spell didn't need any change, except perhaps changing its save penalty, but now I'm going to suggest adding its reverse spell, Cloak of Bravery. Within AD&D CoB grants only immunity to fear, making it kinda pointless imo considering a 1st lvl spell can counter fear effects for the whole party. I suggest to make Bravery works as a sort of hope/heroism spell, granting immunity to fear and +2 to hit/dmg rolls to nearby creatures, and make Cloak of Fear cause instead -2 penalty (no save?) and fear (on a failed save).

Like this.

 

Defensive Harmony

I could make it work as per PnP, but it a very complicate thing, and in the end the result would be pretty much identical. What do you think of this spell? Do you use it now? Should I make it last longer?

It's a good spell. Maybe slightly higher duration?

 

 

Flame Strike

It should be fine, isn't it? Should the damaged be increased from d6 to d8? Mmm...

SCS uses it in BG1, where fire protection isn't as common...it's good.

 

Stoneskin

Do you have anything in mind which could "balance" the spell lvl difference between mages and priests? For example within PnP this spell can be cast on others, but if you don't like that we could simply grant druids more skins.

This spell is pretty broken as it is imo, and buffing it further is pointless.

 

Harm

As the other cause wound spells, I'd like to make it not require a hit roll. Pratically it would end up working as a Disintegrate spell with no range, less possible targets (e.g. undead are not affected, Mordy is not destroyed, etc.) but much higher damage on successful save (is the current 75 too much?). My only doubt is that in theory this spell deserves its incredibly long casting time (1 round), which was not a problem when "pre-cast" but it will become a problem with the suggested solution because it needs to be cast in the middle of a fight...would casting time 6 make it too powerful?

Mage killer, if you decide to go this route.

 

Heal

Same as Harm, would casting time 6 make it too effective?

I'm all for buffing this spell, in vanilla it's pretty useless in combat with it's huge casting time.

 

Physical Mirror

IWD made it work in a more generic way (AC and resistances), but we can make it work more like AD&D if we wish so. That means the spell would more or less grant:

1. 50% miss chance to direct attacks (as SR V3 Reflected Image or IR's Cloak of Mirroring)

2. 100% immunity to missiles (covering vanilla's PM's role)

3. 50% resistance to all forms of damage (to simulate PnP 50% chance to ignore AoE damaging spells)

 

Even without implementing 3. this spell would still be incredibly powerful imo, going from a modest buff in vanilla to a must have 6th lvl buff. What do you think?

Drop 3), since it doesn't exactly go with 1). Even 1) is enough.

[Demivrgvs]

Arcane Spells

 

 

Detect Invisibility

This spell won't dispell Improved Invisibility effects anymore (making Improved Invisibility's +4 AC much more reliable and effective), but it will reveal invisibile creatures (those under II too) and it will allow to target them normally (aka we don't need spell removals to have that ugly AoE to bypass II anymore, neither SCS more recent solution!). It will also reveal creatures using the new Etherealness spell.

Invisible creatures will be targetable by what? All spells or as now, spell removals?

All spells, as KR's Inquisitor while using True Seeing.

 

Non-Detection

As discussed here, I'll make it work much more similarly to PnP. When targeted by Detect Illusion, Oracle, or True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

Save vs spells, yes?

Yes.

 

Teleport Field

It won't allow a save anymore as per vanilla.

Tbh, I hate this spell. I hate when mages use it against me, I hate using it on them too. It's so powerful with Protection from Missiles in BG1 that it hurts.

This spell is a nightmare to handle. Some players (like you and myself) consider vanilla's TF almost OP, others (I think the majority) think that after SR's nerf (allow a save) the spell is too weak.

 

The only alternative I could imagine was to keep the save but with a higher save penalty (-4), and make it ignore magic resistance (within 3E all conjurations ignore it).

 

Breach

I wouldn't like it to remove innate immunity to normal weapons.

Don't worry it's not doable.

 

Spell Immunity

Recent "investigations" seem to prove that SCS is currently using only two sub spells of SI, SI:Abj and SI:Div. Let us know if our assumption is wrong. If it's not, we just need to make SCS use Spell Shield instead of the former, Non-detection instead of the latter, and we would have no compatibility issue at all.

I think SCS uses a bit more (Evocation)

Yep, more recent versions of SCS uses it a bit more. Anyway, if we still want to remove SI we can simply replace SI:Evo with Protection from Energy.

 

Sunfire --> Fireburst

I'm renaming it Fireburst as per PnP (perhaps it's just me but the "sun" part was really out of place). PnP version uses d8 dices for damage, but I'm not sure this spell needs more dmg output, does it?

Given that even BG1 SCS mages use it (and in conjuction with that damn Teleport Field), and that it usually kills on a failed save, I'd say it's very powerful.

Fine with me keeping the damage output unchanged. The super-fast casting time is already enough to balance out the reduced AoE, and the latter change isn't strictly a nerf imo because it makes it much more "controllable" (aka party-friendly).

 

Pierce Magic

To make it more similar to its PnP version, more true to how an abjuration spell is supposed to work, and different from Lower Resistance alteration, I'd make it completely nullify magic resistance on target (setting it to 0%) but for a very limited amount of time (only a bunch of rounds).

Don't like it. It will make the game quite easier. Sure, a trigger with 3xLower Resistance does the same but Trigger is 8th level spell....

2x Lower Resistance is enough, and it lasts the entire encounter, unlike the suggested PM which would only lower target's resistance for 1-2 rounds.

 

Improved Mantle

We also have the problem of making two almost identical spells different and both appealing despite having only 1 lvl difference, and I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Yup, that's crazy.

Even if it only works as an aura?

 

I don't have much more ideas...single target but can be cast on others? I don't like it though.

 

Absolute Immunity

Time Stop will still be superior in every possible way except casting time, as Absolute Immunity would have the noticeable advantage of having almost instant casting time instead of a full round, and 1 round duration. What do you think?

AI can last longer that 1 round I guess....3 is fine - it's 9th level. Even if so powerful, I'd think twice before picking it since I like my mages in back row, not as tanks.

It's 4 rounds not 1 nor 3, thus having 1 round duration advantage over TS. It is clearly less devastating than TS, thus it needs some sort of advantage and those are casting time and slightly longer duration.

 

Spellstrike

It's a very powerful spell within SCS....usually my first level 9 pick with sorcerer. I'd nerf it, and nerf it badly. Only spell protections (it is a Spellstrike, no?) should be removed, and still it would be great.

I thought the re-introduction of Spell Shield could keep this powerful spell on check, doesn't it? Furthermore I'm going to remove the current AoE from it.

 

 

Divine Spells

 

 

Armor of Faith

This is a very powerful spell with exellent scaling. Sure this needs a buff?

I don't know, I was only increasing duration because it seemed very short, but I can live with the current version. I don't think it needs any real buff, but compared to other defensive spells such as Shield or ProEvil it has a very short duration.

 

Miscast Magic

I don't know, is it fine/appealing?

It's hilarious. I was hesitant to try it, but when I did, the results were exellent. Moreover, it does not apply spell failure so SCS mages still cast spells.

Does it mean you find the current version useful/appealing?

 

Defensive Harmony

I could make it work as per PnP, but it a very complicate thing, and in the end the result would be pretty much identical. What do you think of this spell? Do you use it now? Should I make it last longer?

It's a good spell. Maybe slightly higher duration?

Yeah, especially because compared to Magic Circle against Evil it does seem UP.

 

Stoneskin

Do you have anything in mind which could "balance" the spell lvl difference between mages and priests? For example within PnP this spell can be cast on others, but if you don't like that we could simply grant druids more skins.

This spell is pretty broken as it is imo, and buffing it further is pointless.

Well I wasn't trying to seriously buff it, only to "justify" the spell level difference between wizard and druid versions.

[kreso]

Arcane Spells

.

 

 

Teleport Field

.

This spell is a nightmare to handle. Some players (like you and myself) consider vanilla's TF almost OP, others (I think the majority) think that after SR's nerf (allow a save) the spell is too weak.

The only alternative I could imagine was to keep the save but with a higher save penalty (-4), and make it ignore magic resistance (within 3E all conjurations ignore it).

Well, is there any spell which protects from it in BG1 standards (level 3, 4)? Afaik there are 1 set of boots in Sahaugin City... This spell stacks with itself, how can it be UP? In BG1 Teleport Field+Protection from Missiles+Minor Globe is pretty much invulnerability mode for casters (enemies at least).

 

Improved Mantle

I don't have much more ideas...single target but can be cast on others? I don't like it though.

I dislike the idea of casting such spells on others as well.

 

Spellstrike

I thought the re-introduction of Spell Shield could keep this powerful spell on check, doesn't it? Furthermore I'm going to remove the current AoE from it.

I don't know. Imo, it will still be extremely powerful, since you can use almost any anti-magic spell to remove Spell Shield, and then use Spellstrike, stripping down everything.

 

Armor of Faith

I don't know, I was only increasing duration because it seemed very short, but I can live with the current version. I don't think it needs any real buff, but compared to other defensive spells such as Shield or ProEvil it has a very short duration.

I see this as a "use in combat" buff, with it's short duration and casting time. I like it this way (it's also a 1st level slot, and those are plentiful). 2 turns are ok as well, ofc.

 

Miscast Magic

Does it mean you find the current version useful/appealing?

Yes, it's a very useful spell. I like it because of the original concept as well.

[Ardanis]

Teleport Field

It's a lesser PFMW for AI, therefore I'm all for keeping it up and good. The only issue I see is its stackability.

 

Sunfire --> Fireburst

Well... On one hand you need to get the wizard alone in the middle of enemies, on the other it's probably good enough already.

 

Improved Mantle

Sounds reasonable. Is it, in any way, possible to make them protect from certain number of hits (like stoneskin) as well? Say, 20 or so? Making it work like this and giving the caster a big AC bonus should make it useful even against high level warriors with +5 weapons, which can kill amantled wizard in a single round with WW.

I had actually said the same - change the spell into a massive AC boost to protect against all kinds of weapons, with an additional outright immunity to low-level enchantment.

 

But yes, we need to keep the IM better than M, in order for AI to detect the immunity level correctly.

Actually, we don't The latest DS (already in use by SCS v22) can handle the difference from within SR, without having to ask David for anything. The only setback it that SCS will cast IM on the assumption its +4 immunity, not +3. Then again, what if we... make the lesser Mantle +4?..

 

Absolute Immunity

I don't mind 6 rounds duration, or even a full turn. It's not like users (players or AI) would complain or they can't tear it down.

Hm, you know, I might actually do vote for 1 turn.

 

Armor of Faith

Yes for 5 turns, clerics need all the protection they can get.

 

Defensive Harmony

+4 party AC is a very powerful bonus, even for 1 tun. Increasing duration and changing it to aura are great.

 

Flame Strike

Despite the added small AoE, it's still mainly a single-target spell, and priests don't have many other direct damage choices. I'd either raise the die to d8 or the level cap to 20.

 

Stoneskin

If we don't touch True Sight, then leave Stoneskin alone too. Otherwise, druids should have other good spells on 5th level, don't they? So they won't normally fill their entire 5th level slots with stoneskins to keep party fighters in good shape indefinitely.

For the reference, NWN2's lesser stoneskin can indeed be cast on others.

[Ardanis]

Shield

 

Its school is changed from Evocation to Abjuration.

Mmm, are you sure? It's a force spell...

 

Greater Globe of Invulnerability

Simply renamed from V3 Spell Shield, as the original Spell Shield is now restore. I know it's not a true PnP spell, but I like it as it is, and it makes my wizard feel like a lich for a moment.

It's impossible to detect the immunity level in the old DS, and while we can use ToBEx to extend that, AI scripts still need to be updated if we don't want them to cast 4th/5th spells on GGoI.

That said, we already had the same situation with GoI for a decade, so I'm just mentioning it.

 

Symbol of Death

Ironically the only Symbol which really belongs to 8th lvl is the least appealing one. The easiest way to make this spell appealing would be to make it more like Dungeon & Dragons Online, aka a "Mass Enervation Trap". The hardest one (not 100% sure it's doable) would be to make it a continuos effect instead of instantaneous once triggered, thus turning the area into a field of death where for x rounds everyone within the area must make a save as soon as his/her hit points are lower than 60, or die.

I don't remember this idea, but I like it nonetheless

 

We can set the projectile to trigger up to X times when approached, should be fine, right?

 

 

Shilellagh

What about speeding up its enchantment bonus? IIRC I was for +2 on 5th level and +3 on 9th.

 

 

Flame Blade

It should be very powerful early on in BG1 but I fear it quickly fades within BG2. Does it need to be boosted a little? My main concern is its enchantment lvl, which should probably be at least +2 to make it appealing later on. What do you think of it in general?

Sadly lacking later on, yes.

 

The most obvious option is to keep the damage progression up to 1d8+20, but, indeed, you need +2 ench more often than +3. +1 is still useful even in ToB, but I bet one simply wouldn't bother to keep a track of enemies' immunity level, and prefer something that always works. I likely wouldn't either, despite knowing better than most that 75% opponents are vulnerable to it.

 

 

Goodberry

If you ask me, even after my huge boost I would never memorize this spell. It would be really cool if within BG players had to eat a meal at least once per day to avoid fatigue, but such feature don't exist (too bad, it would make taverns more interesting ). I'll think about the possibility of making the berries remove various fatigue effects, but in the meanwhile (and regardles of such tweak) I'd vote to move this spell at 1st lvl as per 3E.

Some idea for the invigoration effect - one round haste.

 

Resist Fire and Cold

No changes planned, though for a moment I was thinking to turn it into an elemental barrier (e.g. 25% res to fire, cold and electricity - not sure about acid).

With Storm Shield gone, it's good.

 

Repulse Undead

I'm thinking to remove it. We may add the higher lvl Repulsion spell instead.

For those who haven't seen it (buried somewhere deep in the discussion topics), the idea is to provide priests with an effective PFMW/Teleport Field defense. David had said that there's only so much he can do for priest AI to protect itself, and the ability to throw away anyone who comes close essentially means immunity to melee weapons. Add Physical Mirror on top, and you're safe from missiles as well.

 

Holy Smite / Unholy Blight

Since you've been so kind to not keep it in the first post, I'll graciously remind

Why don't we make it a single spell, that affects alignments other than caster's? Perhaps one-step deviations should only take half as much damage.

David didn't seem bothered much by the prospect (other than pointing out that the caster should remain unaffected).