SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Kalindor]

Haste-inducing Goodberries... I'd have to see that in practice.

 

I, too, vote for a one turn duration for Absolute Immunity. It would then be more appealing than Time Stop for defensive purposes. In addition, a 9th-level defense spell should force opponents to do more than simply wait ~25 seconds before beating you down.

 

I am OK with Spellstrike stripping all defenses, but that sounds like something you could instead use as a HLA spell for a specialist mage.

 

Anything you can do to improve the spells that create magical weapons is fine by me!

[valky]

Charm

So much more useful for the human player. Are you able to make charmed party members act hostile? Or else disable the ability to control charmed creatures (which would make the spell so much less appealing).

As I recall, they already act pretty hostile, the melee classes at least. However, it would be nice to assign the custom script to charmed character according to his class, so warrior could fight in melee (It's the default behavior for the enemy-charmed characters, isn't it ?), rogue backstab, mage cast some spells available to him and so on.

 

I wouldn't recommend to disable control of charmed creatures, that's for sure.

 

I'd differ between Monster/Humanoid and if you are able to communicate with your charmed whatever thingie. That'd be also in unison with the good ol' 2nd Edition....ie:

 

Monster: act completely independent and no control or whatsoever allowed - similar to the current Mordekainen's sword (due to the engine, I guess select all and give an order is the exception)

Humanoid: can be fully controlled

 

But both types can roll a SavingThrow every round to determine if the charm is still in affect.

That'd be similar to 2nd D&D, as each hostile action of the caster has a chance to break off the control of the charmed critter. Since your typical BG2 caster has some kind of (ranged) weapon equipped and should attack at least once per round (if not necessary casting a full-round action spell ^^), I'd consider this as an overtly hostile act.

 

Not sure, if such a thing is possible ^^ but the saving throw each round should be...

 

edit: else, I wouldn't mind if the control of the charmed person/monster is completely disabled (player already has more than enough advantage)

 

I am OK with Spellstrike stripping all defenses, but that sounds like something you could instead use as a HLA spell for a specialist mage.

 

I might be wrong, but since the added radius the spell's efficiency went sky-rocket...and strips off anything despite several protection, which should make this very spell harmless for at least 1 cast?! If I remember the Hell-fight against irenicus (with SCS) I just needed 1 spell strike + 1 pierce shield to fully make him "naked"

 

Correct me if am wrong, but once I can cast this very spell even SCS mages ain't a real threat...

Edited August 9, 2013 by valky

[kreso]

Correct me if am wrong, but once I can cast this very spell even SCS mages ain't a real threat...

I can only second this. It does make any mage battle so much easier, even without AoE. In addition, it makes any other similar spell redundant.

Edited August 9, 2013 by kreso

[valky]

I can only second this. It does make any mage battle so much easier, even without AoE. In addition, it makes any other similar spell redundant.

 

Ha, forgot to add liches

My current nearly mindless performed action: hammer timestop -> hammer imp. alac. -> Spellstrike -> pierce shield -> cast other useless spells, just to get the most of the timestop -> once timestop is done, feel satisfied, to have xyz enemy gone for good within 1-2 seconds (currently Keldorn is casting true sight - just in case ^^)

 

Within the time stop, the AoE component hits all the time and thanks to the AoE it always strips them naked.

I know, it might be hard to balance, and without the AoE stuff, enemies with Imp. Invis/prot Divination will be your worst nightmare and r*pe you *point*

Very good example of this: (NPC mod: kova & Kiyone, and this stupid wizard is level 30 in SoA!)

 

http://i800.photobuc...e4.jpg~original

 

Issue: I can't beat him, without time-stop since he moves a lot...with time-stop it _is_ possible, but he casts time-stop (2x) as well (and his 3 gates *lol*). SInce he spawns with 3 other wizards, I might be getting interrupted. Once I got interrupted am done for good....(notice the nasty protection combo and he still hasn't fired his contingency trigger ^^)

 

I think, without the improved spellstrike from SR I might just quit the game for good. On the other hand, in this posted example, my sole-classed mage (Tyris) was lvl *erm* 22 or something like that, so she had quite a bit of spell-slots, but Kova still was able to cast only 1 lvl 9 spell thanks to his multi-classing.

So it's a give-or-take situation.

 

[though, it's a SCS scripted lvl 30 ^^ mage in SoA, which on the other hand is completely impossible to beat without SR!]

Edited August 9, 2013 by valky

[kreso]

[though, it's a SCS scripted lvl 30 ^^ mage in SoA, which on the other hand is completely impossible to beat without SR!]

If all else fails, thief's Detect illusion skill bypasses SI:Div, making the wizard targetable. Another option is ADHW (unless he's protected from Magic Energy), and cloud-type spells. Of course, if he Gates in 3 modded Pit Fiends and given you don't want to cheese them out but fight them, I'd say you're dead.

[valky]

[though, it's a SCS scripted lvl 30 ^^ mage in SoA, which on the other hand is completely impossible to beat without SR!]

If all else fails, thief's Detect illusion skill bypasses SI:Div, making the wizard targetable. Another option is ADHW (unless he's protected from Magic Energy), and cloud-type spells. Of course, if he Gates in 3 modded Pit Fiends and given you don't want to cheese them out but fight them, I'd say you're dead.

 

SInce I was discussing it this with the very author of the mod:

 

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/valky667/gnaaaa/init_overkill_zpsdc37eb02.jpg~original

 

This is what happens, if I don't do a thing. I know this is an ultimate worst-scenario-case-mod and doesn't seem to be intended to ever work with SCS, but even if my party level was slightly (very) high [Watchers keep = clear | random tactics-reputation-trigger spawn | random Beyond the Law-trigger == massive XP], this obnoxious insane lvl 30 mage was a major pain in the butt.

And that it how itd look like, if I don't do a thing:

 

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/valky667/fiend_spam_zpsb4b94f2c.jpg~original

 

[i was fully unbuffed/unprepared..since the only working spell to prevent this trigger is the almighty 'Sphere of Chaos'!!!! and it was a show-case-scenario]

[Kalindor]

It would be nice if we could get a Banishment type of spell that rids us of gated creatures. Demi mentioned that this is unlikely due to some technical reason about how the gated state is specified on a creature, unfortunately.

 

In terms of Spellstrike making lower-level forms of protection removal obsolete, I am fine with that as Spellstrike is a level 9 spell. After all, Monster Summoning I seems pretty obsolete once you acquire Monster Summoning III, but this is "balanced" by their respective spell levels.

 

My current nearly mindless performed action: hammer timestop -> hammer imp. alac. -> Spellstrike -> pierce shield -> cast other useless spells, just to get the most of the timestop -> once timestop is done, feel satisfied, to have xyz enemy gone for good within 1-2 seconds (currently Keldorn is casting true sight - just in case ^^)

 

Within the time stop, the AoE component hits all the time and thanks to the AoE it always strips them naked.

In this case, you have used a couple Time Stops, Improved Alacrities, a Spellstrike, and a Pierce Shield in order to remove the protections of the enemy character. That's a total of about 4-5 level 9 spells and a level 8 spell (Pierce Shield is level 8, right?). I would expect any mortal human character to crumple under the power of five level 9 spells and a level 8 spell. That's like hitting a Fighter with five Meteor Storms and a Horrid Wilting. If they are not dead/vulnerable, it's time to cry. Refinements also takes Improved Alacrity away from Sorcerers, which helps to balance things a bit. I am not sure if Kit Revisions will do the same.

[Demivrgvs]

Shield

Its school is changed from Evocation to Abjuration.

Mmm, are you sure? It's a force spell...

I'm doing it only because "it's a PnP thing", and because Abjuration school lacks 1st level spells (only ProEvil), unlike Evocation (Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp and eventually Ice Dagger too).

 

Teleport Field

It's a lesser PFMW for AI, therefore I'm all for keeping it up and good. The only issue I see is its stackability.

That's what the save was added for, prevent multiple TF abuse. Overall I agree with Kreso about this spell becoming almost OP when used in combo with only a few other things such as ProMissiles. Like you say, it's a sort of PfMW limited to melee weapons, but it's only a level 4 spell and lasts much longer, making it extremely cheaper.

 

(Improved) Mantle

Sounds reasonable. Is it, in any way, possible to make them protect from certain number of hits (like stoneskin) as well? Say, 20 or so?

I'm against re-using stoneskin here, it's not even an option consider one spell would prevent the use of the other.

 

Making it work like this and giving the caster a big AC bonus should make it useful even against high level warriors with +5 weapons, which can kill amantled wizard in a single round with WW.

I had actually said the same - change the spell into a massive AC boost to protect against all kinds of weapons, with an additional outright immunity to low-level enchantment.

I'm fine with it granting increased AC (it already does within SR) but I would not like the AC boost to be so significant to make all other AC enhancing spells irrelevant.

 

But yes, we need to keep the IM better than M, in order for AI to detect the immunity level correctly.

Actually, we don't The latest DS (already in use by SCS v22) can handle the difference from within SR, without having to ask David for anything. The only setback it that SCS will cast IM on the assumption its +4 immunity, not +3. Then again, what if we... make the lesser Mantle +4?

I don't remember if I already said so, but I wouldn't even mind making both Mantles protect from all enchantments if necessary (dropping the AC idea). It may sound as a huge boost, but for players PfMW already does the same (non-magical weakness is almost irrelevant except against aVENGER's AI), and Mantle is a higher level spell.

 

Absolute Immunity

I don't mind 6 rounds duration, or even a full turn. It's not like users (players or AI) would complain or they can't tear it down.

Hm, you know, I might actually do vote for 1 turn.

My issue with such a long duration is that any party or AI controlled groups without a Mage able to cast Breach or SR's Pierce Shield would have to stand there without any counter for 10 rounds. That, combined with casting time 1, would make this spell utterly overpowered in too many situations imo.

 

Spellstrike

Correct me if am wrong, but once I can cast this very spell even SCS mages ain't a real threat...

I can only second this. It does make any mage battle so much easier, even without AoE. In addition, it makes any other similar spell redundant.

The current SR's Spellstrike is identical to vanilla's one, except for the AoE, which was implemented only to bypass II (as "requested" by SCS back then). I'm suggesting to remove that AoE now that we can handle II in more interesting ways.

 

Leaving aside the biggest problem with anti-magic spells within BG is that we have really too many of them, I'm not afraid of this spell making lower level similar spells redundant, quite the opposite. Considering SCS can now use Spell shield to block a spell removal (including Spellstrike), how many times Spellstrike is going to be much more useful than a cheaper Ruby Ray of Reversal? In both cases you need another spell removal to break SS, after that how many layers of spell protections are there? Usually tearing down one layer is more than enough to allow a mid-high level mage to wipe the target out unless the opponent quickly raises his defences again. What am I missing?

 

Stoneskin

For the reference, NWN2's lesser stoneskin can indeed be cast on others.

Mind you, within AD&D both druids and mages could cast this spell on others. Druids version of this spell only had two advanatges:

- 1d6 skins + 1 skin every 2 levels, instead of 1d4 + 1 skin every 2 levels

- skins are removed only on successful hits (as per BG), while mage's Stoneskins are removed on every attack, even those which would have not hit the mage (kinda stupid concept if you ask me)

 

Symbol of Death

Ironically the only Symbol which really belongs to 8th lvl is the least appealing one. The easiest way to make this spell appealing would be to make it more like Dungeon & Dragons Online, aka a "Mass Enervation Trap". The hardest one (not 100% sure it's doable) would be to make it a continuos effect instead of instantaneous once triggered, thus turning the area into a field of death where for x rounds everyone within the area must make a save as soon as his/her hit points are lower than 60, or die.

I don't remember this idea, but I like it nonetheless

 

We can set the projectile to trigger up to X times when approached, should be fine, right?

I had more complicated ideas in mind (involving the use an invisible creature), but I'm not 100% sure about them. Your solution (pretty much as SR's Sphere of Chaos with a delayed trigger) would work fine most of the times, but it would not affect creatures entering the area for the first time after the symbol is triggered.

 

Shilellagh & Flame Blade

I'm in favor of slightly improving both.

 

Goodberry

If you ask me, even after my huge boost I would never memorize this spell. It would be really cool if within BG players had to eat a meal at least once per day to avoid fatigue, but such feature don't exist (too bad, it would make taverns more interesting ). I'll think about the possibility of making the berries remove various fatigue effects, but in the meanwhile (and regardles of such tweak) I'd vote to move this spell at 1st lvl as per 3E.

Some idea for the invigoration effect - one round haste.

I'm not persuaded. Mmm...

 

Resist Fire and Cold

No changes planned, though for a moment I was thinking to turn it into an elemental barrier (e.g. 25% res to fire, cold and electricity - not sure about acid).

With Storm Shield gone, it's good.

One more reason to replace Storm Shield with Wind Wall.

 

Repulse Undead

I'm thinking to remove it. We may add the higher lvl Repulsion spell instead.

For those who haven't seen it (buried somewhere deep in the discussion topics), the idea is to provide priests with an effective PFMW/Teleport Field defense. David had said that there's only so much he can do for priest AI to protect itself, and the ability to throw away anyone who comes close essentially means immunity to melee weapons. Add Physical Mirror on top, and you're safe from missiles as well.

Short story: Repulsion would be a cleric variant of Teleport Field.

 

Holy Smite / Unholy Blight

Since you've been so kind to not keep it in the first post, I'll graciously remind

Why don't we make it a single spell, that affects alignments other than caster's? Perhaps one-step deviations should only take half as much damage.

David didn't seem bothered much by the prospect (other than pointing out that the caster should remain unaffected).

The first post is a recap of all the planned changes, thus excluding possible changes we are still not sure of.

[valky]

In this case, you have used a couple Time Stops, Improved Alacrities, a Spellstrike, and a Pierce Shield in order to remove the protections of the enemy character. That's a total of about 4-5 level 9 spells and a level 8 spell (Pierce Shield is level 8, right?). I would expect any mortal human character to crumple under the power of five level 9 spells and a level 8 spell. That's like hitting a Fighter with five Meteor Storms and a Horrid Wilting. If they are not dead/vulnerable, it's time to cry. Refinements also takes Improved Alacrity away from Sorcerers, which helps to balance things a bit. I am not sure if Kit Revisions will do the same.

 

Damn! That's quite an argument and I am just speechless...

If I go for the Irenicus Example Hell 1/2 the success just depended on being able to cast time-stop or not ^^ (depends, if my mage(s) were targeted or not)

 

But you are right, the amount of spells in that case alone, should make a caster go fizzle or being unable to cast stuff for quite a long time, since the mind is completely smashed.

[kreso]

Spellstrike

 

Leaving aside the biggest problem with anti-magic spells within BG is that we have really too many of them

,

This is very true.

 

I'm not afraid of this spell making lower level similar spells redundant, quite the opposite. Considering SCS can now use Spell shield to block a spell removal (including Spellstrike), how many times Spellstrike is going to be much more useful than a cheaper Ruby Ray of Reversal? In both cases you need another spell removal to break SS, after that how many layers of spell protections are there? Usually tearing down one layer is more than enough to allow a mid-high level mage to wipe the target out unless the opponent quickly raises his defences again. What am I missing?

Hmmm...maybe make Spellstrike destroy 1 spell protection only (of any level), but apply an effect that spellcasting is blocked for x rounds (2 or so?).

Your point makes sense, but essentialy destroying all protections apart from Spell Shield is very powerful.

[Ardanis]

(Improved) Mantle / Absolute Immunity

I don't remember if I already said so, but I wouldn't even mind making both Mantles protect from all enchantments if necessary (dropping the AC idea). It may sound as a huge boost, but for players PfMW already does the same (non-magical weakness is almost irrelevant except against aVENGER's AI), and Mantle is a higher level spell.

My issue with such a long duration is that any party or AI controlled groups without a Mage able to cast Breach or SR's Pierce Shield would have to stand there without any counter for 10 rounds. That, combined with casting time 1, would make this spell utterly overpowered in too many situations imo.

A mage without Breach already can do nothing if the target is under ProEnergy and Death Ward, and those last much longer than a turn.

So the problem mostly comes down to weapons. Again, it's not like you can have you entire party under it, so AI will always have someone to chew on.

 

If AI uses it, the it does so in the beginning of a battle, not after you've run out of Breaches. Even then, party is assumed to have accumulated some scrolls and wands by the time you begin repeatedly running into 9th spells.

 

 

I'm very sympathetic to making Mantles immune altogether (why hadn't I thought of it myself? ) Which drives me to the following consideration:

5) Protection from Normal Weapons - creature, x/level duration, speed 5, normal weapon immunity

6) Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon immunity

7) Protection from Weapons - self, x/level duration, speed 7, all weapon immunity

8) Improved Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

9) Absolute Immunity - party, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

 

 

Again, we won't have to worry about AI, even aVENGER's weapon switch, because 6-9 spells will be labeled as vanilla Absolute Immunity.

 

 

PFNW still looks weak, though...

 

 

Symbol of Death

I had more complicated ideas in mind (involving the use an invisible creature), but I'm not 100% sure about them. Your solution (pretty much as SR's Sphere of Chaos with a delayed trigger) would work fine most of the times, but it would not affect creatures entering the area for the first time after the symbol is triggered.

Trigger + multiple charges = trigger multiple times until depleted

The problem, now that I think of it, is that it uses the same trigger delay value to delay between consequent discharges. I.e. if it's 1 round, then targets may slip past before it's triggered, and if it's minimal, then all charges will fire off almost instantly - something you don't want to happen if the target is immune or got low saves.

 

But we can use a secondary projectile, which should solve the issue entirely.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm very sympathetic to making Mantles immune altogether (why hadn't I thought of it myself? ) Which drives me to the following consideration:

 

5) Protection from Normal Weapons - creature, x/level duration, speed 5, normal weapon immunity

6) Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon immunity

7) Protection from Weapons - self, x/level duration, speed 7, all weapon immunity

8) Improved Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

9) Absolute Immunity - party, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

 

Again, we won't have to worry about AI, even aVENGER's weapon switch, because 6-9 spells will be labeled as vanilla Absolute Immunity.

Or you could make the whole thing linearly exponential... cheese the names and go with the protection levels as this:

 

Spell level:

3) Protection From Normal Missiles - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: protects from no enchanted arrows/bolts/stones.

5) Protection from Normal Weapons - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: normal weapon immunity(so +0's), non enchanted arrows/bolts/stones and throwing axes.

6) Protection from Magical Weapons - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: weapon immunity of (+)0, +1 and arrows/bolts or stones/thowing weapons... other than their effects and ... I would personally name this as Lesser Mantle.

7) Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: weapon immunity of (+)0, +1 and +2, plus the spell protection of levels so and so forth, as in original game, and ranged attacks. ... that do not pierce the Mantles effect(say the +3 Arrows, Arrows of Slaying and Arrows of Piercing will get through as do the +5 throwing weapons).

8) Improved Mantle - 1 touch target, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: weapon immunity of (+)0, +1 and +2, +3, +4, plus the spell protection of levels so and so forth, as in the original game, and ranged attacks.

9) Absolute Immunity - 1 touch target, 4 rounds, speed 1, effect: weapon immunity of (+)0, +1 and +2, +3, +4 and +5, +6, +7, +8, +9, +10 etc. plus the spell protection of levels so and so forth, as in original game, and all ranged attacks.

 

And no, those enchantment levels are not definite for me... but approximate from what I remember.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[April]

Request:

 

Any chance you could introduce SR versions of the Iwdification spells Beltyn's Burning Blood and Vitriolic Sphere? If possible it would also be nice if Vitriolic Sphere was made 5th level like in 3rd ed instead of 4th as in IWD. The reason for this request is that with SCS installed enemy mages are too focused on defense and simply don't have a lot of offensive magic memorized, a large part of this is the fact that there are no party safe 4th and 5th level damage spells even with SR installed. Including these spells and having them be used by the SCS AI would make enemy mages a lot more lethal while also reducing their ridiculous amount of defensive spells slightly (since memorized copies of Beltyn's Burning Blood would indirectly reduce the amount of stoneskins memorized.)

[Demivrgvs]

New Arcane Spells for v4

Any chance you could introduce SR versions of the Iwdification spells Beltyn's Burning Blood and Vitriolic Sphere? If possible it would also be nice if Vitriolic Sphere was made 5th level like in 3rd ed instead of 4th as in IWD. The reason for this request is that with SCS installed enemy mages are too focused on defense and simply don't have a lot of offensive magic memorized, a large part of this is the fact that there are no party safe 4th and 5th level damage spells even with SR installed. Including these spells and having them be used by the SCS AI would make enemy mages a lot more lethal while also reducing their ridiculous amount of defensive spells slightly (since memorized copies of Beltyn's Burning Blood would indirectly reduce the amount of stoneskins memorized.)

The relatives topics got lost because they were not pinned, but you might want to take a look here.

[yarpen]

Absolute Immunity should protect you from everything that deals damage. All weapons and all types of damages. It shouldn't protect you from spell effects actually. So - with that in mind, it's main advantages over Time Stop would be

a) Cast Time: 1

b) Duration: 4 rounds (maybe more?)

I think that'd be something I'd call balanced.

 

With Contingencies becoming Innate abilities I think both Abjurer and Transmuter are slowly getting out of the closet. All that Abjurer lacks is the Stoneskin-good early game spell to deal with pesky fighters trying to get his ass beaten.

To be honest I'd rather rework/remove Stoneskin.

 

There are too many "Protection from X Weapons" spells. I believe the only spells left should be:

6: Lesser Mantle up to +2

7: Mantle up to +3

8: Greater Mantle up to +4

9: Absolute Immunity any kind of damage

 

And Dem, try to find some kind of sweet LVL3-4 Abjuration spell that protects them from physical damage.