SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Ardanis]

Short story - immunity to +X just doesn't work if you can't predict ahead what weapon enchantments you'll be facing the next battle. Which is why I suggest to skip it entirely and make all the 6-9 spells immune to all weapons with target/duration/speed/etc. as variable parameters.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Short story - immunity to +X just doesn't work if you can't predict ahead what weapon enchantments you'll be facing the next battle. Which is why I suggest to skip it entirely and make all the 6-9 spells immune to all weapons with target/duration/speed/etc. as variable parameters.

Well actually it is easy to detect them... you just use a script that does this... yes, usually the enemy already has the normal weapons protection which makes the PfMW the same thing as the Absolute immunity in the regards that come to weapon damage, making it overpowered spell for the level it is on.. the only way for the player to gain the same advantage is to have the Bhallspawn power or one or two armors that give it.. in comparison to the fact that there's dozens of monsters that have the ability as a permanent enchantment. This fact actually makes the dual and multi -classes better than the standard classes as the pure mage can't actually use the armors and the Bhallspawn usually should be a nonmage -class as it lacks the HPs to take advantage from the most powers. And what's good for a mage to have the evil powers as they can naturally cast similar or exactly same spells, while a fighter gets a larger advantage from being able to cast spells.

Now you just wish to make the other spells more alluring to be casted as they give the same effect ... is not going to make the spell more usable ... that much, in comparison to the other possibility where only the AI would give the benefit, as then, the monsters would need to rely to other effects for their defenses, not to pure cheese "you can't hit me" and "ouh, yeah, I am invisible so bye bye to your Breach spells, as you can't target me. " .."instead of option to the Absolute Immunity, I opped the Spell Trap as it gives me a few more of those fun PfMW spells while you destroy it" ...

Edited November 2, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

Short story - immunity to +X just doesn't work if you can't predict ahead what weapon enchantments you'll be facing the next battle. Which is why I suggest to skip it entirely and make all the 6-9 spells immune to all weapons with target/duration/speed/etc. as variable parameters.

I actually like this. I'd only change duration,however, not target. In addition, you could make Mantle +2 to saves, Imp.Mantle +4 to saves, Apsolute Immunity - well, apsolute immunity to damage/saves are made automatically.

[yarpen]

Short story - immunity to +X just doesn't work if you can't predict ahead what weapon enchantments you'll be facing the next battle. Which is why I suggest to skip it entirely and make all the 6-9 spells immune to all weapons with target/duration/speed/etc. as variable parameters.

I think scripts rely on the duration of spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I think scripts rely on the duration of spells.

Nope, it relies on the effect flags the spells produce.

[yarpen]

Oh, then that's cool.

[yarpen]

Are there any other interesting Power Word spells in PnP? And how do they work exactly? Any chances for making a larger variety of those and improving them? To be honest I have an idea for a kit that resolves around them.

[Demivrgvs]

PfMW & Mantles

Short story - immunity to +X just doesn't work if you can't predict ahead what weapon enchantments you'll be facing the next battle. Which is why I suggest to skip it entirely and make all the 6-9 spells immune to all weapons with target/duration/speed/etc. as variable parameters.

See first post. Mantles getting full immunity is fine with me, making these two spells unique instead is a pain.

 

PfMW needs to keep its weakness imo.

 

Power Words

Are there any other interesting Power Word spells in PnP? And how do they work exactly? Any chances for making a larger variety of those and improving them? To be honest I have an idea for a kit that resolves around them.

There are TONS of Power Word spells in the Races of the Dragons 3E book.

[kreso]

And how do they work exactly?

Same as BG - check for HP treshold (even Blind, which doesn't in BG). It's higher in PnP, however - PW:Kill kills creatures up to 100 HP, unlike BG version.

Their defining characteristic is that they affect a single creature and never allow for saving throw.

[yarpen]

I'd say these could be interesting to implement. Later levels for mages are defined by Saving Throws. Everything requires those these days.

Power Words: Distract, Deafen, Petrify, Fatigue, Weaken all sound cool. Especially Pain. That'd give Enchanters some way of actually dealing direct damage.

[Talbot]

I'm surprised no one has suggested giving entangle its old party friendly AOE back yet. Druids are pretty thin on useful spells still, and this is their signature one. With the current casting time and the indiscriminate effect this spell is rarely useful. Conceptually a druid shouldn't be getting tripped up by their own plants right? Yes, then it would be pretty strong for a first level spell, but druids need a little love.

 

 

(If nothing else consider making druids immune to entangle in KR )

[yarpen]

I'd say it could become party-friendly at higher levels.

Spell is really broken in BG1 if party-friendly. Cast Entangle, massacre people with bows.

In BG2 spell starts to be a bit less relevant, so some buff to it would be nice.

 

Level 1-9: not party friendly

10+: party friendly

 

I'd actually love to see more spells working like that and gaining more than just ST penalties and damage while mage progresses.

[Jarno Mikkola]

PfMW needs to keep its weakness imo.

Erhm, could you remind me what those are ? If we remember the fact that the 90% of the enemies that use the spell are actually immune to the normal weapons, naturally.

[Demivrgvs]

Entangle

I'm surprised no one has suggested giving entangle its old party friendly AOE back yet. ... With the current casting time and the indiscriminate effect this spell is rarely useful.

Probably because they know I'm attached to PnP, where it has always been party-unfriendly. That being said, with a bit of help (via items or spells) you can easily use this spell imo, and SR actually already buffed it by adding a no-save reduced movement rate which can be used to keep some distance while casting spells from afar.

 

As yarpen says, a party-friendly Entangle would be extremely OP in BG1 because you could cast it every single time and have your entire party kite here and there unpunished, rain down arrows or even get close in melee (an entangled opponent with -2 thac0/AC is an even easier prey for Fighter immune to it).

 

Druids are pretty thin on useful spells still, ... druids need a little love.

While that was surely true in vanilla, I think that even in the current state SR already made druid's spellbook really great. There can always be room for improvements, but I don't feel like druid's spellbook needs any more love than cleric's one right now. Am I wrong?

 

Conceptually a druid shouldn't be getting tripped up by their own plants right? ... If nothing else consider making druids immune to entangle in KR

Well, Ranger's Woodland Stride feature does indeed grant immunity to entangle within KR (I'm sure KR's Archer loves this spell), and Druids are kinda destined to get the same ability considering that they share it within PnP.

 

PfMW

PfMW needs to keep its weakness imo.

Erhm, could you remind me what those are ? If we remember the fact that the 90% of the enemies that use the spell are actually immune to the normal weapons, naturally.

For instance, aVENGER's AI uses non-magical weapons against PfMW, and that alone is a good reason to keep such weakness. Then, regardless of how many ways there are to "cover" that weakness, it's still a weakness as long as Mantles offer more than PfMW.

 

My issue with PfMW isn't strictly with PfMW but rather that in vanilla there was absolutely no reason to use Mantles because they were inferior to their little. If Mantles turn into really superior spells than vanilla's PfMW is fine imo, and it surely doesn't need to be buffed.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If Mantles turn into really superior spells than vanilla's PfMW is fine imo, and it surely doesn't need to be buffed.

I will argue arduously against this...

 

My issue with PfMW isn't strictly with PfMW but rather that in vanilla there was absolutely no reason to use Mantles because they were inferior to their little.

Why not make the problem spell worse, not the non-problematic spell have the same problem ?

We can make the PfMW remove the Protection from Normal weapons with two step program... we first of all restrict the spell to have only the normal enchanted weapon protection, and then set an AI that drops all the protection items that concern the Normal Weapon protections as the primary override AI. Yes, this will leave the party free to switch items to the normal variety or breach the spell if they so want to. PS, the creatures have two ring items, one can be use to facilitate the switching the immunity effect from one item to another that can be dropped without causing a "catastrophic" effect like loosing spell level protections etc. In addition there's of course cloak slot etc spaces the item can be at.

And yes, there's specific code series that checks if the items in the slots are actually correct type, and one of those should be used to make sure the items end up in good spots.

 

There's another more interrupting way too, remaking the Protection from Magical Weapons spell to what is known as "Lesser Mantel"... which is the vanilla type Mantel, that allows +2 weapons to get through it.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola