SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Demivrgvs]

PfMW & Mantles

@DavidW, do not lose your patience with the imp, and do not worry about SR implementing changes which interfere with SCS, you know I always take your AI as granted when shaping SR's spells (e.g. you do persuaded me to revert PfMW back to 4 rounds).

 

Regarding Mantles, I'm glad to see SCS finally seems to use them more often (judging by your readme), I take it that making it grant complete immunity to weapons is not a problem for SCS, isn't it?

 

 

Imprisonment

I'd like to see a save added to this, but probably with a hefty penalty. Say -6 to -10.

I think I suggested it too ages ago, but I seem to recall the consensus was against changing it. 3E and Pathfinder do added a save to fix the clearly broken mechanic of this spell, but made it so that knowledge of the target could raise the save penalty of the spell to reach almost impossible to resist levels (DC of a level 9 spell is already high within 3E rules, and this spell is the only one with an additional -4 penalty of top of it).

 

That being said, my issue with this spell isn't much its OPness (though it indeed is OP) but rather than it completely lacks any appeal for a player imo. Powerful targets are made immune to it because of how stupid it would be to simply cast it to end each and every boss fight, and against vulnerable targets I would surely pick Maze over this spell (same results, but I don't miss xp and loot) or even the much cheaper Resilient Sphere against weaker ones. Right now I feel this spell has no purpose, am I the only one to think so?

 

Speaking of giving it a purpose, one thing it could accomplish well which is hindered by its implementation is to use it to counter uber powerful gated demons. Assuming we could tweak it to make it work with less issues (e.g. imprisoned creatures tend to mess with the summon limit), could such a feature make the spell appealing? If yes, should I consider making celestials vulnerable to it too?

[kreso]

Imo, Imprisonment is almost exclusively useful for AI. I don't think I ever casted this. Melee range, huge casting time, 9th level slot, and you loose both XP and loot. I don't know if there is any target in the whole game on who I'd cast this - those worthy of it are mostly immune anyway. Maybe Edwin could use it since he gets 4 level 9 slots upon reaching level 18, but otherwise no. And still I'd rather have Alacrity/Planetar and similar stuff.

[Ardanis]

Mantle grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons and can be breached or dispelled

I don't think it's significant enough to account for this as a balance factor.

 

Improved Mantle grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons and can be dispelled but not breached.

There will be AI issues.

 

Absolute Immunity grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons but cannot be breached or dispelled.

There *may* be AI issues.

 

 

Imprisonment

I'm quite sure it can unsummon gated creatures with ease.

[Demivrgvs]

First of all, glad to have you back Arda, now that you're here I feel like I can triplicate my time on Revisions mods. I just need to buy some good coffee to spend a bunch of sleepless nights.

 

Imprisonment

I'm quite sure it can unsummon gated creatures with ease.

Does the current implementation handle it flawlessly? I feared the "almost permanent maze" effect could not work so well and I was suggesting to add en EFF to deal with it directly.

 

Imo, Imprisonment is almost exclusively useful for AI. I don't think I ever casted this. Melee range, huge casting time, 9th level slot, and you loose both XP and loot. I don't know if there is any target in the whole game on who I'd cast this - those worthy of it are mostly immune anyway. Maybe Edwin could use it since he gets 4 level 9 slots upon reaching level 18, but otherwise no. And still I'd rather have Alacrity/Planetar and similar stuff.

My point exactly, right now there's absolutely no reason to ever memorize this spell, and even assuming this spell could be one of those cases where the AI could benefit from it more than players (such as spells with long lasting penalties like diseases and curses), facing an AI which uses Imprisonment is annoying at best, if not game-breaking with the current implementation.

 

My question was: does countering gated demons (and tweaking it to counter celestials too) offer any appeal to this spell? Can we imagine ways to make this spell actually usable?

 

For example, a daring idea could include all or some of the following tweaks:

- lower casting time

- increase range

- replace permanent timing with "only" a very long duration (eventually the spell description could say things like "particular rituals and intimate knowledge of the target may allow to make the spell's effect permanent, but normally..." - obviously/hopefully written in a much better way)

This way Imprisonment would turn into an Improved Maze with at east two big advantages:

* bypass magic resistance

* not limited by target's INT

Worth trying or pointless? Any better idea?

[kreso]

facing an AI which uses Imprisonment is annoying at best, if not game-breaking with the current implementation.

It isn't as game-breaking (all you need do is cast Freedom, if you have it) but the annoyance factor of this spell is extreme.

SCS refuses to use it on protagonist by default.

 

My question was: does countering gated demons (and tweaking it to counter celestials too) offer any appeal to this spell? Can we imagine ways to make this spell actually usable?

I could imagine this being useful in Ascension, but even there as soon as Mellisan shows up she casts Freedom - in turn, this would make the battle even harder - The Five + a Fallen Solar with dispelling vorpal arrows....yeah...

As for Demons/Celestials - meh. I won't be using 9th single-target level slot on a Demon, be it vanilla/SR/SCS/aTweaks modification.

 

For example, a daring idea could include all or some of the following tweaks:

- lower casting time

- increase range

This could backfire easilly. The only known ways to protect yourself from Imprisonment is SI:Abj, or vanilla Rage. IR has boots with Dimensional Anchor.

Other than that - one thing can save you - never let a high-level SCS mage get near you, and if he does, and starts chanting some Abjuration spell - go invisible so he looses targeting (does not always work).

Casting time and range increase would, in this case, mostly benefit only AI. None of these changes would make me cast this spell.

Other than that, it kind of breaks the flavour of battles. What good is a battle if you get rid of a powerful adversary without any retaliation? Same reason why I don't use Maze. Maybe people using Maze would give better info on usage of these spells.

 

- replace permanent timing with "only" a very long duration

Would it make any difference? If an oponnent is out of the battle for 60 seconds, rest assured - when he comes back, he will find no comrade of his alive. If he's out for 5 minutes, it's a pain to wait it out.

The idea has merit (at least in Ascension finale, and perhaps Abazigal battle) but I'm not really convinced (Iirc, Mel will instantly free any Imprisoned targets, Abazigal's pet dragons may be simply immune with SCS).

[Ardanis]

I'd expect an irresistible instant kill effect from an offensive single-target 9th level spell. E.g. PW:Kill should really kill regardless of HP and saves.

 

For the Imprisonment, reduce the duration to 1 turn, auto-destroy summoned/gated things, add 5' AoE. Rename to Greater Banishment

[Jarno Mikkola]

Imprisonment

...

- replace permanent timing with "only" a very long duration

Or you could just add an innate release command(spell gained after successful cast) that works just like the Freedom spell. Edited November 18, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

I'm relatively sparing about immunity to Imprisonment - but I think dragons get it as part of "standardise dragon immunities". For AI use, I had a feeling there are easier ways to block Maze than imprisonment - but perhaps I misremember?

 

(One of the Easter Eggs in SCS is an area where a spellcasting opponent has Imprisoned a group of balors as a counter to Freedom cast by the party...)

[Demivrgvs]

Imprisonment

I'm relatively sparing about immunity to Imprisonment - but I think dragons get it as part of "standardise dragon immunities". For AI use, I had a feeling there are easier ways to block Maze than imprisonment - but perhaps I misremember?

I think you are. There's actually no difference at all between blocking Maze and Imprisonment even with Revisions mods (I added one item to protect from them, but it works against both), and considering SI:Abj surely is extremely more popular than SI:Conj protecting oneself from Imprisonment actually seem slightly more common.

 

Speaking of this matter, while immunity to vanilla's Imprisonment is a must have in certain circumstances please do not use immunity to Maze. That spell's appeal is almost entirely based on the ability to temporarily remove from the battlefield a dangerous foe, and if the only eligible targets are made immune I fear the spell might as well not exist. Target's INT value can already be used to be sure the Maze effect isn't OP against powerful foes, doesn't it?

 

P.S Btw, very nice easter egg!

 

For example, a daring idea could include all or some of the following tweaks:

- lower casting time

- increase range

This could backfire easilly. The only known ways to protect yourself from Imprisonment is SI:Abj, or vanilla Rage. IR has boots with Dimensional Anchor.

Other than that - one thing can save you - never let a high-level SCS mage get near you, and if he does, and starts chanting some Abjuration spell - go invisible so he looses targeting (does not always work).

Casting time and range increase would, in this case, mostly benefit only AI.

Well, I would surely not go for this if the spell keeps its permanent timing (not to mention game over on charname), but the reduced duration ensure the spell is powerful but not insta-win. Btw, I could be fine reducing casting time while keeping touch range if we think it serves some purpose.

 

None of these changes would make me cast this spell.

Other than that, it kind of breaks the flavour of battles. What good is a battle if you get rid of a powerful adversary without any retaliation? Same reason why I don't use Maze. Maybe people using Maze would give better info on usage of these spells.

Well, you are not getting rid of it completely, you are only postponing the inevitable fight. Much like Maze is an improved Resilient Sphere, this solution would make Imprisonment an improved Maze. If you don't like the concept or use of those spells that's a different story.

 

- replace permanent timing with "only" a very long duration

Would it make any difference? If an oponnent is out of the battle for 60 seconds, rest assured - when he comes back, he will find no comrade of his alive.

That's exactly what I was suggesting. The whole point of Maze-like spells is to temporarily disable power foes which would probably fail save-or-else effects (Dragon Age had similar spells too in the form of Force Field and Crushing Prison).

 

 

PW:Kill

I'd expect an irresistible instant kill effect from an offensive single-target 9th level spell. E.g. PW:Kill should really kill regardless of HP and saves.

Ehm...a "no save just die" PW:Kill is terrible imo. I really don't like the idea that a 20th level warrior can be killed instantaneously on sight by a mage without even allowing a slim chance.

 

The planned PW:Kill is already potent enough imo as long as the save to avoid death is very harsh. It can be cast in an instant to an injured target to kill it outright, or it can be used as a slightly deadlier Finger of Death (now that we're going back to AD&D style save penalties I've assigned a more modest -2 penalty to FoD, and -4 to PW:Kill).

[kreso]

You're allowing a save vs PW:Kill?

[Demivrgvs]

PW:Kill

You're allowing a save vs PW:Kill?

Only for targets with more than 60hp. It still kills targets with less than 60hp without allowing a save, but while vanilla PW:Kill had completely no effect on targets with more than 60hp, now those targets need to make a save or be slayed regardless of their hit points.

[kreso]

I don't think this spell needs any boosting, tbh....it's the ultimate mage-slaying spell as it is, only SI:Conjuration or Invisibility will protect the mage from it when his HP goes below 60. It's one of those spells which are (imo) perfectly balanced already. 9th level, super-fast cast time, very specialized, and very powerful. Keep in mind that this will probably benefit the party (I think AI checks HP treshold) much more.

[Demivrgvs]

PW:Kill

I don't think this spell needs any boosting, tbh....it's the ultimate mage-slaying spell as it is, only SI:Conjuration or Invisibility will protect the mage from it when his HP goes below 60. It's one of those spells which are (imo) perfectly balanced already. 9th level, super-fast cast time, very specialized, and very powerful.

The problem is that being a 9th level spell it simply "cost" too much for what it does. Once mage protections are down you have much cheaper alternatives to kill him in an instant. Even PW:Stun itself is as effective as PW:Kill in that case, and it's more reliable (90hp limit instead of 60), cheaper and even more versatile imo (stun works against almost any creature).

 

While I would surely not buff it to the extremes as suggested by Arda, I do think in its current state this spell simply isn't worth one of those scarce 9th level spell slots available. If it wasn't for its casting time it couldn't even compete with things like Finger of Death or Disintegrate.

 

Keep in mind that this will probably benefit the party (I think AI checks HP treshold) much more.

Well, using it against those who are not allowed to save is still the optimal choice imo, we're not worsening AI performance. Also note that while the AI can instantly check target's hp, players can't, and thus right now the AI actually has a noticeable advantage when it comes to decide when using this spell. The new feature simply makes this spell more versatile, and allows players to use it without fearing of wasting it completely.

[DavidW]

Also note that while the AI can instantly check target's hp, players can't, and thus right now the AI actually has a noticeable advantage when it comes to decide when using this spell. The new feature simply makes this spell more versatile, and allows players to use it without fearing of wasting it completely.

 

It has it but it doesn't use it, at least where SCS is concerned. The relevant SCS targeting block is

OR(2)
	HPPercentLT(scstarget,75)
	!CheckStatGT(scstarget,12,Level)
OR(3)
	HPPercentLT(scstarget,50)
	Class(scstarget,MAGE)
	Class(scstarget,MAGE_THIEF)

The player only has access to the Barely Injured/Injured/Badly Injured/Near Death categories, so in SCS, so does the AI. (This is ancient code and in hindsight I might redesign it slightly, but I'd keep to the general principle.)

Edited November 18, 2013 by DavidW

[Demivrgvs]

True Seeing

I'm posting this because I'm having trouble writing down a good description of what the spell does now and I hope to get some help. I've taken inspiration from the official PnP description because the spell finally behave much closer to it, but it's rather generic and within SR we have always strived to put as much informations as possible to make sure any player can easily understand all the small details.

 

Short story, right now I have this: "When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they actually are. The caster sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, and sees through illusions, effectively neutralizing spells such as Blur and Mirror Image, and allowing to see and target invisible creatures normally. The caster is also cured from any form of blindness and is immune to it for the duration of the spell."

 

what do you think of it?

 

I think we might also need to add two additional informations:

- caster is immune to hostile illusions such as Spook, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Door and Weird

- illusionary creatures and clones are not dispelled anymore, but they are "detected/highlighted" (I'm also considering to make them suffer a reduced % of hit points when detected as illusions)