SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[kreso]

True Seeing

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they actually are.

I can't help you much with description, really not my forte, but do drop this line from the description. Take it from a Transactional Analysis Psychology student ....

[Kalindor]

Here is a quick revision:

 

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they truly are. Illusions no longer hold any power over the caster, allowing him to detect and target invisible creatures as well as completely ignore hostile illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird. In addition, no form of blindness may affect the caster for the duration of the spell.

 

Note: True Seeing does not dispel illusionary clones such as those conjured by Mislead or Simulacrum, but instead clearly highlights them, revealing them as the deceptions that they are."

 

Obviously this can be modified to incorporate whatever penalty you wish to inflict upon the illusionary clones. I am always willing to proofread descriptions or write text if you want to PM/email them to me.

[Salk]

Kalindor's revision is nice but I suggest to cut the "Illusions no longer hold any power". This is already stated implicitly in the next "as completely ignore hostile illusion spells" part. Also I'd cut "that they are" in the end as well.

 

Note that it's also grammatically wrong as "Illusions no longer hold any power over the caster, allowing him to detect..." pairs the verb with the wrong subject ("Illusions" instead of "spell" as intended).

 

Tentative change:

 

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they truly are, detecting and targeting invisible creatures as well as completely ignoring hostile illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird. In addition, no form of blindness may affect the caster for the duration of the spell.

 

Note: True Seeing does not dispel illusionary clones such as those conjured by Mislead or Simulacrum, but instead clearly highlights them, revealing them as deceptions."

Edited November 21, 2013 by Salk

[Kalindor]

I agree completely about the last sentence: it sounds much better as Salk phrased it. I was trying for some atmosphere, but the original sentence sounded awkward to me as well.

 

I'm glad you proofread this and pointed out that you found it unclear. I would revise the second sentence as follows: "Illusions no longer hold any power over the caster, which allows him to detect and target invisible creatures as well as completely ignore hostile illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird." In both the original case and the revised one, it is the situation of illusions holding no power that is being referenced and not the word "illusions" per se. If one were to write it out even further, you could say: "Illusions hold no power over the caster, a situation which allows him to..." but that is starting to sound unwieldy to my ear.

 

In terms of dropping the clause "Illusions no longer hold any power over the caster," I agree on the grounds of utilitarianism but disagree on the grounds of flavor text. I suppose I am unclear whether Demi wants the most utilitarian description possible or a more immersive one. For a purely functional spell description, I would suggest something like the following:

 

"This spell enables the caster to detect and target invisible creatures and renders him immune to blindness. Until the spell expires, the caster is also is unaffected by the following Illusion spells when cast by enemy spellcasters: (list them here). Hostile illusionary clones will not be dispelled by True Seeing, but will be highlighted."

[Salk]

I like the "utilitarian" version and I understand your point, Kalindor. Still, in the "Illusions no longer hold any power over the caster, allowing him to detect and target invisible creatures" line the subject is "Illusions", and that generates confusion. About the two alternatives, only the second is really correct in my opinion but, as you said, it sounds too cumbersome.

 

About flavor vs utilitarism, I personally tend to the latter when it comes to spells description, saving the other for items, since the lore component is stronger there.

 

Let's see what Demi says

Edited November 21, 2013 by Salk

[Demivrgvs]

True Seeing

I am unclear whether Demi wants the most utilitarian description possible or a more immersive one.

I'm obviously not against flavor per se, but I think BG spell descriptions generally only include essential informations (and in vanilla they were lacking in this department too) and very few, if any, flavor text. If we can throw in a bit of flavor it's cool imo, but only if it also serve some purpose (e.g. better explain why the spell works as it does). I would probably not include purely cosmetic lines.

 

"This spell enables the caster to detect and target invisible creatures and renders him immune to blindness. Until the spell expires, the caster is also is unaffected by the following Illusion spells when cast by enemy spellcasters: (list them here). Hostile illusionary clones will not be dispelled by True Seeing, but will be highlighted."

Mmm...this description doesn't make clear how the spell behave when it comes to Blur and Mirror Image (unfortunately those two spells are still dispelled).

 

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they truly are, detecting and targeting invisible creatures as well as completely ignoring hostile illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird. In addition, no form of blindness may affect the caster for the duration of the spell.

 

Note: True Seeing does not dispel illusionary clones such as those conjured by Mislead or Simulacrum, but instead clearly highlights them, revealing them as deceptions."

Overall I like this template a bit more, but while "Completely ignore hostile illusion spells" could work for Spook, Phantasmal Killer and so on, I would not list Mirror Image as an "hostile" spell.

 

Just that we are here nitpicking everything, does "illusionary clones" remain fine to describe "illusionary creatures" too? I fear not. Right now I don't have added Shades yet (no bams for it, and most new spells are on hold to quicken a BGEE compatible release), but sooner or later we'll have to deal with that type of "summons".

[Salk]

True Seeing

 

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they truly are, detecting and targeting invisible creatures as well as completely ignoring hostile illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird. In addition, no form of blindness may affect the caster for the duration of the spell.

 

Note: True Seeing does not dispel illusionary clones such as those conjured by Mislead or Simulacrum, but instead clearly highlights them, revealing them as deceptions."

Overall I like this template a bit more, but while "Completely ignore hostile illusion spells" could work for Spook, Phantasmal Killer and so on, I would not list Mirror Image as an "hostile" spell.

 

Just that we are here nitpicking everything, does "illusionary clones" remain fine to describe "illusionary creatures" too? I fear not. Right now I don't have added Shades yet (no bams for it, and most new spells are on hold to quicken a BGEE compatible release), but sooner or later we'll have to deal with that type of "summons".

 

It's pretty easy to bring in the necessary corrections:

 

True Seeing

 

When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they truly are, detecting and targeting invisible creatures as well as completely ignoring illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, and Weird. In addition, no form of blindness may affect the caster for the duration of the spell.

 

Note: While True Seeing does not dispel illusionary creatures or clones such as those conjured by Mislead or Simulacrum, it still highlights them clearly, revealing them as deceptions.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Salk

[Jarno Mikkola]

True Seeing

... as well as completely ignoring illusion spells such as Mirror Image ...

So everyone else except the mage is still effected by the mirror image ! What ?

Yes, I am partially pulling your leg Salk... but still.

Erhm, "removing" instead of "ignoring" ... could work.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Redwall]

No save to teleport field makes fights against high level mages who cast it very unfun. I've gone against this in tactics and it means that my melee fighters are never able to land more than 1 hit per round while the spell is active

 

Isn't it strong enough as is?

Edited November 28, 2013 by Redwall

[Demivrgvs]

Teleport Field

No save to teleport field makes fights against high level mages who cast it very unfun. I've gone against this in tactics and it means that my melee fighters are never able to land more than 1 hit per round while the spell is active

 

Isn't it strong enough as is?

The main problem with vanilla's version of this spell (aka without a save) is that multiple TS stack. A single TS is almost OP imo considering it is just a 4th level spell (against melee weapons it's almost a PfMW with long duration - even more so with IR not allowing ridiculously fast melee swings with most weapons) but still manageable, it's when you start stacking multiple TS that the spell shows itself as clearly broken.

 

A player also reminded me that combining TS with SR's Protection from Missiles is pretty much an "invulnerability mode" (especially if used by the AI within BG1 when players still have no access to Breach) and thus I was persuaded that even if many players seem to think I nerfed this spell too heavily, I was right instead, and I'm currently keeping the save (albeit with a heavy -4 penalty - and it's a save vs. spell, which is supposed to be fighter's worst save).

 

Thanks for bringing this up to my attention, I'll update the first topic to reflect this.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[Jarno Mikkola]

True Seeing

The problem with vanilla's version of this spell (aka without a save) is that multiple TS stack. Even a single TS is almost OP imo considering it is just a 4th level spell (against melee weapons it's almost a PfMW with long duration - even more so with IR weapons not allowing ridiculously fast melee swings with most weapons), but when you start stacking multiple TS than the spell shows itself as clearly broken.

Erhm, ha. TS being over powered ... not. The only reason for it feeling to be overpowered is that the things it protects against are OP without it !

You know, rogue stealth backstab, invisibility clones... the works.

You can still take the TS + Protection from Missiles with pure simple melee fighters. Yes, your thief is a bad fighter, and your mage needs to use damage inflicting spells... Now then if he has invisibility(if there's such a thing with the continuous TS), then you are in a heep load of trouble if your own mages or clerics TS fails.

 

Well, if it's about the TF, then making the spell "party unfriendly"(and self hostile) will fix it, as the mage will not be able to cast it on himself as then he will get screwed for flying outside the field by the melee'ers... it's that how it worked ? And needs to work.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

What Demivrgvs is conidering here isn't True Seeing, but Teleport Field. As I said before, the spell is used even by BG1 mages and in conjuction with Missile protection is outright crazy for more than one reason:

1) no access to Breach

2) out of Inquisitor, there's very little chance of dispeling the protection

3) save penalty is huge

4) mages often employ MGoI, making themselves immune to tons of disables used in BG1

 

So yeah, it's powerful as it is, and making it a no-save would be even worse - there's no real "counter" to the spell, apart preying for a good roll or using up potions. The effects of this spell can be much worse for your fighters than the description would have you think - what often happens is that they get teleported near a mage who blasts them with Sunfire or Cone of Cold.

[yarpen]

What about:

- moving cleric's True Sight to level 6 (matches with Mage's version, makes lvl6 spells repertoire stronger)

- moving Time Stop to HLA (hey, this spell really deserves it!)

[Demivrgvs]

What about:

- moving cleric's True Sight to level 6 (matches with Mage's version, makes lvl6 spells repertoire stronger)

- moving Time Stop to HLA (hey, this spell really deserves it!)

- I see your point but I don't know if I have enough reasons to move this spell. It has always been a 5th level spell for clerics in PnP (though druids are indeed supposed to get it later), but most importantly there's not much difference between 5th and 6th level spell repertoire, as we have 11 and 10 different picks respectively (the latter is getting Banishment with v4).

- within both SR and KR we are not going to consider mage's HLAs as 9th/10th level spells spells anymore, but rather as innates. This way they won't have to directly compete anymore. Time Stop has always been a 9th level spell and I really don't see myself moving it to HLAs.

[Salk]

Find Familiar

 

I guess there won't be any improvement for this spell even in version 4?