SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[kreso]

- should we keep Minor SD limitation to 7th lvl spells?

Why not?

 

- the # of spell levels absorbed in vanilla are 4, 10, 12 respectively, wouldn't something like 6, 9,12 be better? Or do we need bigger differences between them to justify the much higher spell slots used (5th lvl for SD, 7th lvl for Gr.SD)?

As I see it, it doesn't really matter. SCS will never bother casting against it (presumably neither will player-controled casters), regardless of spells absorbed.

 

for Spell Trap I have bigger plans in the future, but for now I'd simply make it a virtually infinite SD with 8 hours duration

What do you think?

Fine.

 

P.S.

What's the story with Mantles? My suggestion would be to simply make them better versions of the almighty PFMW, something like:

 

PFMW - 4 rounds (same as vanilla). I'd implement "immunity to normal weapons" here as well, and rename the spell into "Protection from weapons", remove "Protection from Normal weapons" from game and be done with it, but I'm sure many would disagree. This spell hugely favours the player over AI.

Mantle - 4 rounds, protects from all weapons, +4 to saves (or +6, even better).

Imp. Mantle - 4 rounds, all saves are automatic sucess.

AI - immunity to everything, all saves automatically made.

 

I'm against longer duration of these spells (I don't think mages need more protection than they already have).Making such changes will probably mess up Rogue Rebalancing AI slightly, but it's a rather small sacrifice.

Edited January 27, 2014 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Spell Deflection

- should we keep Minor SD limitation to 7th lvl spells?

Why not?

I don't know, NWN did not have such restriction. It certainly helps making the 5th lvl variant much more appealing but it looks sort of strange in terms of "progression" (the gap between Minor SD and SD with this feature is waay bigger than the gap between SD and Gr.SD).

 

- the # of spell levels absorbed in vanilla are 4, 10, 12 respectively, wouldn't something like 6, 9,12 be better? Or do we need bigger differences between them to justify the much higher spell slots used (5th lvl for SD, 7th lvl for Gr.SD)?

As I see it, it doesn't really matter. SCS will never bother casting against it (presumably neither will player-controled casters), regardless of spells absorbed.

Yes, SCS scripts will indeed try to bring them down with spell removals regardless of how many spell levels a SD spells has (for the same reason it made no difference using Spell Turning instead of SD) but in case the NWN-style component is installed, willingly or not, the AI will benefit from protection against AoE spells too when using SD. That means the # of spell levels an SD spell can absorb is much more important now imo (e.g. Minor SD # is so low right now that a single Confusion spell will consume it).

 

PfMW & Mantles

What's the story with Mantles? My suggestion would be to simply make them better versions of the almighty PFMW, something like:

 

 

PFMW - 4 rounds (same as vanilla). I'd implement "immunity to normal weapons" here as well, and rename the spell into "Protection from weapons", remove "Protection from Normal weapons" from game and be done with it, but I'm sure many would disagree. This spell hugely favours the player over AI.

 

Mantle - 4 rounds, protects from all weapons, +4 to saves (or +6, even better).

Imp. Mantle - 4 rounds, all saves are automatic sucess.

PfMW simply got its 4 rounds duration back. RR's scripts do try to bypass it with normal weapons, SCS seems to finally rely on Mantles too and I actually had nothing against liches "abusing" their innate immunity to non-magical weapons together with PfMW (players could do the same with certain abilities or items), my complaints were more related to Mantles performing worse than PfMW.

 

I actually did not touched Mantles for now because I had no idea how to handle the Improved one (I was even tempted to simply "hide" it because it's absurdly stupid for an Improved spell to be just one lvl higher imo) but I'm all for making even the 7th lvl Mantle protect from any weapon. I'm not sure about your suggested "auto save" feature because it starts to overlap too much with both Absolute Immunity and the planned Foresight, but I admit I really don't have any better idea.

 

On a side PnP Protection from Spells is an 8th lvl spell which grants +8 to all saves against spells, not much different from your suggestion, though having both that and a full immunity to weapons is a big deal.

[Ardanis]

Spell Deflection

- should we keep Minor SD limitation to 7th lvl spells?

Imo it's irrelevant, because by the time the wizard duels begin to include 8+ spells none would bother with wasting time on MSD.

 

On the other hand, it may actually serve a purpose of blocking the first hostile spell coming in at the cost of a 3rd level slot. Question is, what would be the point in using greater versions then? Because unless they block vastly more spell levels (thus becoming way too strong) they'll still dissipate after 2-3 hits.

 

PfMW & Mantles

Quoting myself

I'm very sympathetic to making Mantles immune altogether (why hadn't I thought of it myself? ) Which drives me to the following consideration:

5) Protection from Normal Weapons - creature, x/level duration, speed 5, normal weapon immunity

6) Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon immunity

7) Protection from Weapons - self, x/level duration, speed 7, all weapon immunity

8) Improved Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

9) Absolute Immunity - party, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

 

Again, we won't have to worry about AI, even aVENGER's weapon switch, because 6-9 spells will be labeled as vanilla Absolute Immunity.

 

PFNW still looks weak, though...

[kreso]

Spell Deflection

the # of spell levels an SD spell can absorb is much more important now imo (e.g. Minor SD # is so low right now that a single Confusion spell will consume it).

Aha...interesting. Will the Confusion bounce back then to the caster, even if the protected mage isn't strictly "targeted" by it?

Anyhow, if it blocks Confusion alone and disspates afterwards it's still great. Imo, it's powerful enough.

 

PfMW & Mantles

I'm all for making even the 7th lvl Mantle protect from any weapon.

Great.

 

I'm not sure about your suggested "auto save" feature because it starts to overlap too much with both Absolute Immunity

I kind of envisioned Apsolute Immunity to grant something like this:

-immunity to fire, acid, cold, electricity

-immunity to magic damage

- immunity to all weapons and damage types (somewhere (?) Comet does crushing damage)

- all saves automatic success

It is "Apsolute immunity", no? Besides, it's countered by a cheap 5th level spell which AI does cast (and will not waste save-or-else spells on a character with uber-saves. Cheesy, yes. ).

Mantle & Imp. Mantle wouldn't grant all these, just extra saves. Fireball would still hurt, same as Comet etc. Mage would always roll a save (presumably for half damage) but would be hurt, while AI would make him "immortal" for the duration or until dispelled/breached.

 

and the planned Foresight

Afaik, PnP Foresight really isn't worth a high level slot in BG2. (+2 reflex, +2 AC, immune to being flat-footed?)

 

On a side PnP Protection from Spells is an 8th lvl spell which grants +8 to all saves against spells, not much different from your suggestion, though having both that and a full immunity to weapons is a big deal.

It is a big deal, and it's a 7th or 8th level slot, where it competes against things such a Pro Elements, Pro Energy, ADHW and the like.

Bottom line - it better be good if one will ever pick Mantles over PFMW.

Edited January 27, 2014 by kreso

[Jarno Mikkola]

PfMW & Mantles

Quoting myself

I'm very sympathetic to making Mantles immune altogether (why hadn't I thought of it myself? ) Which drives me to the following consideration:

5) Protection from Normal Weapons - creature, x/level duration, speed 5, normal weapon immunity

6) Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon immunity

7) Protection from Weapons - self, x/level duration, speed 7, all weapon immunity

8) Improved Mantle - self, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

9) Absolute Immunity - party, 4 rounds, speed 1, all weapon/death/energy/etc. immunity

 

Again, we won't have to worry about AI, even aVENGER's weapon switch, because 6-9 spells will be labeled as vanilla Absolute Immunity.

PFNW still looks weak, though...

Wouldn't it be ... say more obvious if you would name the 6th level spell as "Protection from Weapons", and the 7th Mantle, while the 8th is Improved Mantle... it's shorter duration, but it covers more ... so it's improved, in both speed and coverage..

[Demivrgvs]

Just wanted to say that Beta Testers finally started putting their hands on the current build, which includes all the planned changes listed in the first post and followed by a Done flag. If anyone is interested on this build just contact me.

 

I'll try to keep that post up-to date and inform everyone about the ongoing process of refining we are doing. In the meanwhile, check here if you haven't already, you may even found cool new entries such as...

 

Break Enchantment

Exploiting the pre-existing 'disabling' sec type we have tweaked this spell to finally counter charm effects. At the same time this change made it also counter the following spells:

- Doom

- Silence

- Miscast Magic

- Emotion

- Malison

[Morgodur]

Hello Demivrgvs,

I would like to test v4. The registration confirmation does not work so I can not send you a PM. Please contact me at morgodur@hushmail.com (trash mail). I will replay with my good mail address.

 

Is it possible to use v4 beta with th Big World Setup?

[Demivrgvs]

Hello Demivrgvs,

I would like to test v4. The registration confirmation does not work so I can not send you a PM. Please contact me at morgodur@hushmail.com (trash mail). I will replay with my good mail address.

 

Is it possible to use v4 beta with th Big World Setup?

Hi! I'll contact you via e-mail then, np.

 

The beta should be compatible with pretty much everything but when it comes to BWS you may want to ask to ALIENQuake. That being said, for now it's probably better if you use a smaller install just in case you have to update the beta during the playthrough.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Is it possible to use v4 beta with th Big World Setup?

Yes it is, you have to edit the mod selection file(BiG World Setup\Config\BWP\Mod.ini) manually though, knowing exactly what you are doing. And like said, you might wish to make a smaller install so you won't sacrifice a whole 4-24h install because of an spell related bug(though one that can't be fixed or tweaked after install is not very likely).

Edited July 28, 2014 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

 

Is it possible to use v4 beta with th Big World Setup?

 

Don't.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Don't.

Is there a specific reason why you quoted me on that ?

[kreso]

 

Don't.

Is there a specific reason why you quoted me on that ?

 

Nah.

[Grammarsalad]

True Seeing

 

"When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things as they actually are.

 

I can't help you much with description, really not my forte, but do drop this line from the description. Take it from a Transactional Analysis Psychology student ....

[Grammarsalad]

(Can't edit with my phone.)

 

Ha! Or from a philosophy student. How do we see something 'as it really is' when the way it 'really' is as a thing in itself, is beyond all possible perception/representation.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Ha! Or from a philosophy student. How do we see something 'as it really is' when the way it 'really' is as a thing in itself, is beyond all possible perception/representation.

You just apply some general relativity and there you go. As in, you don't have to become the thing itself to know & sympathize with it(to a point).

This from a devil that doesn't believe into chaos.

Of course one could find a better ways to express the same though, say; "When this spell is cast, the caster gains the ability to see all things without the normal burdens of illusions...